Paper Beats Rock Beats Scissors: Bengals Show Up, Barely Beat Battered Browns

by Cleveland Frowns on December 20, 2010

For the second straight week, the Browns have lost to a team that was favored to beat them (favored by people at sports books who put millions of real dollars on the games, not by Plain Dealer peanut panels); and for the second straight week, we have to hear nonsensical ranting about the Browns “playing down to the competition.”

Like from Tony Grossi, of course, who ended his game wrap with a zing:

“They’ve got two games left at home. Maybe it’s a good thing they are against playoff contenders Baltimore and Pittsburgh. They play up to teams like that.”

In the reductionist’s world, where everything about a football team, including its trajectory, can only be measured in wins and losses, it’s not only possible but easy for the 2010 Browns to “play down” to another NFL team, even a team that won the AFC North last season and was expected this season to contend for the same.

See if you can follow this:

The Cleveland Browns started the 2010 season acknowledged by most pundits as one of the least-talented rosters in the NFL, coming off a painful but necessary teardown of an already thin 2009 group. The sports books had the Browns penciled in for 5.5 wins, and nobody who puts these predictions in print disagreed to any significant extent. The Browns weren’t in the top two-thirds of any national power rankings, and nobody anywhere expressed a reasonable expectation that the team would compete for a playoff spot. Nobody viewed this team as having anything approximating a roster balanced with quality NFL talent.

Some years are more interesting than others, of course, and this year was supposed to be a relatively boring one in Cleveland with respect to the Browns. As a result, as it would be with any team that’s not ready to win consistently, the press would have to work harder to honestly keep fans interested in their Browns coverage. The best hope in Brownstown was that the team would stay competitive from week-to-week and show signs of progress heading into Year 3 of the Mangini Era.

(Sometimes football games just aren’t as interesting as some folks would like them to be.)

Now, after fourteen games in 2010, the Browns have not only won the 5-or-so games that everyone expected from them, but have been more competitive from week-to-week than literally anyone imagined at the season’s outset. This against a schedule that’s as difficult as that faced by any team in the league; with an injury-forced three-quarterback rotation (any part of which might start only for a tiny handful of current NFL teams); with gaping roster holes at the receiver position and in the front seven; with essentially no contribution from its supposedly most electric playmaker, Josh Cribbs; And with defensive lynchpin Scott Fujita pinned to the bench with an injury for most of the season’s second half.

Yet despite all that, it’s still easier to generate content and pageviews with talk about a coach’s job security than with anything else, and there are still folks bent on prosecuting personal vendettas against the first decent head football coach that Cleveland has seen in a decade. So, of course:

  • Per Dennis Manoloff, it’s “unthinkable” that the 2010 Browns could lose consecutive football games to the Bills and the Bengals;
  • It’s an “embarrassment” to lose these games,according to Terry Pluto, because talent doesn’t matter, “December is supposed to be the Browns’ month”;
  • Tony Grossi leads his game wrap by calling the Browns out for failing to “roll over the cupcakes,” like the ones in Cincinnati who rolled undefeated through the AFC North to win the conference last season, and who everyone expected to contend for the same this year. Eric Mangini’s future in Cleveland, to Grossi, is now “black and white.”

See, despite what every bit of preseason analysis provided, all of a sudden there are “cupcakes” who the Browns are supposed to “roll over.” Which is exactly how to punish a team and a coaching staff for outperforming preseason expectations and stealing a couple from the Patriots and Saints with trick plays and turnovers. It’s either completely insane or completely dishonest.

(Why doesn’t somebody coach these guys up?)

The primary concern here isn’t that Mike Holmgren will get swept up in the insanity. Pundits might be able to afford ignoring real world facts, at least in Cleveland, at least for now, but NFL bosses really can’t. That the sort of coverage currently led by Grossi and Co. might give Holmgren something of a PR cover to insert himself or one of “his guys” does nothing to justify the merits of or apparent dishonesty inherent in any such move. The reason the current state of coverage really bothers us so much is because it serves to replace other conversations that could lift and enlighten rather than drag us all down to the pageviews gutter. Again, one can’t fail to connect the misery of Cleveland’s professional sports teams over the last five decades with the miserable state of the press that covers them.

Anyway, about yesterday, the Bengals, like the Bills last week, weren’t going to let the Browns sneak up on them, and saw the matchup as their last best chance to get in the win column in 2010. They were the more talented team with significant mismatches to exploit. They came to play yesterday, and still only won by 2 points.

Pluto seems to want to call out the Coaching staff here:

Defensive coordinator Rob Ryan and his players had no answers for this question posed by the Bengals, “Are you strong enough and man enough to stop us?”

But nobody seems to want to entertain that the answer to that question is simply “no,” especially after all the injuries, and that this answer has little to nothing to do with the coaches. Paper beats rock beats scissors. The Browns came into this season thin in the front seven, and injuries to Fujita, Robaire Smith, and Shaun Rogers have made them much thinner. If you take the undrafted-free-agents, midseason waiver-wire pickups, and twelve-year-plus warhorses out of the front seven that played yesterday, pretty much all you have left is a 2008 sixth round pick from Iowa State. These guys play hard for the most part, but were simply pushed around yesterday by a motivated Bengals unit that finally did what it was supposed to have done all season (which also happens to be exactly what the Bengals did last season to roll to the AFC North crown).

It was enough to make Bengals running back Cedric Benson cry after the game:

Cedric Benson blinked back tears as he stood in front of his locker, still wearing his black No. 32 jersey. He couldn’t stop them all.

A lone teardrop slid down his right cheek, getting wiped away before it reached his tell-all smile.

Benson ran the Bengals out of their record-matching slump on Sunday, picking up a season-high 150 yards and scoring a touchdown as the focal point of an offense that flattened the Cleveland Browns 19-17 on Sunday. . . .

Cincinnati took a straight-ahead approach against the Browns (5-9), reverting to the run-based attack that won the AFC North last season and changed significantly after [Terrell] Owens was signed. The 37-year-old receiver became the Bengals’ most productive player while the running game broke down.

Benson didn’t understand it.

“I was sending out warning signals earlier, talking about how we’ve got to stay with the running game, just get the spark, the energy, the identity developed,” Benson said. “We kind of became a one-man show for a minute there.”

They were again on Sunday, with a different leader.

“It was exciting,” [All Pro] left tackle Andrew Whitworth said. “We’ve wanted to pound the rock like that for a while and get a chance to unleash the boss man on them, and we did.”

Even Grossi had to admit that the Bengals were better off after their leading receiver Owens went down to injury in the first quarter:

The worst thing to happen to the Browns was Terrell Owens leaving with an injury. Without T.O. complaining for the ball, Carson Palmer was able to spread it around to eight receivers and hand off to Cedric Benson.

If it wasn’t clear enough going into yesterday’s game that the Bengals terrible record was in large part a result of mismanagement of a talented roster. We can’t be the only ones wondering how much more the Bengals might have accomplished this season with Mangini at the helm. Hey, with Marvin Lewis a sure goner in Cincy at the end of this season, say Holmgren gives into his worst impulses and does the unthinkable, fires a coach of an obviously improved team two seasons into a massive rebuild? Bengals owner Mike Brown could certainly do a hell of a lot worse to replace Lewis.

Wouldn’t it be just the kind of crap . . . ?

———-

Here’s Grossi’s postgame summary ‘analysis’ of the Browns’ coaching yesterday:

End of the first half was horrendous. At the Bengals 37 with two minutes to go, and can’t get a field goal off? Then they kick short field goal on fourth-and-1 at beginning of fourth quarter, down, 16-7. Play for field goals, lose by two. Bottom line: The gray area is becoming black and white.

Okay, so the Browns are at the Bengals 37 with two minutes to go, and Browns pick up six yards on 1st-and-10 to get to the Bengals’ 31.  On 2nd-and-4, McCoy takes an eight yard sack to set up 3rd-and-12. A five yard reception by Brian Robiskie followed by a John St. Clair false start puts the Browns back at 4th-and-12 from the Bengals’ 39. How the rookie quarterback taking the sack or St. Clair jumping is mostly or even halfway attributable to “horrendous coaching” is anyone’s guess, but our best one is that Grossi might have wanted the Browns to run the ball on 2nd-and-4 from the 31. This is our best guess because the Browns tried to pass instead, and that didn’t end up working. Everyone else seems to want the Browns to have passed the ball on 3rd-and-1 on the first fourth-quarter scoring drive though (because, of course, a run didn’t work), so who really knows. Kicking a fourth quarter field goal when you’re down nine points is a fireable offense as well, of course. Mostly if not entirely because the Browns didn’t end up winning.

Bottom line: In Tony Grossi’s world, a pair of hindsight-based second-guesses constitutes ‘analysis’ that takes us from gray to black-and-white.

———-

The Pittsburgh Steelers have had three head coaches since 1969. The first of those three was Chuck Noll, who won four Super Bowls. Noll’s record in his first three years were 1-13, 5-9, and 6-8.

Mangini’s career record as an NFL head coach is now 33-47. Bill Belichick’s record after five seasons was 36-44.

And we’re still trapped in Cleveland by ‘analysis’ that won’t acknowledge that talent disparities exist and matter in the NFL, ‘analysis’ by which football teams are nothing but what their number of wins and losses say they are, with no regard to the direction in which they’re moving. Thankfully, there can’t be any way that a $50 million dollar NFL executive is trapped by the same.

———-

Here’s an excellent read from Barry McBride at the OBR (subscription required), titled “Denying the inner Taibbi”:

As Eric Mangini was moving through his experiences with the sports media in New York and Cleveland, I’ve been moving through my own. It’s not the sort of world that welcomes interlopers. Ultimately, it’s not the competition or even being a small outlet in a world of giants that gets you down. It’s the operators outside the periphery of decency: the debtors who stiff you, driving you and your employees to the brink, the reporters who steal material from the premium areas of the site. The unreturned calls, the declarations of irrelevance, the rough shoves of the bigger bullies, the smiling stab in the back.

Or in Mangini’s case, the critics lacking perspective or empathy, the reporters more interested in their own self-advancement than the lives and careers of those they supposedly cover and the readers they serve. . . .

I’m not the OBR’s man in Berea. I don’t know Eric Mangini well. I’ve only spoken to him a few times and watched him through transcripts, web replays and audio files. But I see a change in how he accepts being a member of a team, not the young stud calling all the shots. Some self-deflating humor here and there. Some admission of mistakes. Acknowledgment of limits. Maturity. . . .

I’m undoubtedly a part of a rapidly-shrinking minority, but even after this last plummet of the roller coaster, I still regard Eric Mangini as a capable, smart, hard-working coach who is growing as a person before our eyes. Albeit one with a roster very thin in the trenches.

If the 2010 Cleveland Browns season continues its tumble, Eric Mangini may once again have to bear the weight of spittle-infused media rants and the hometown boos of the Browns faithful. I can hear the beast beginning to stir.

Along the way, someone will invariably cross the line, and go after Eric Mangini the person. But they’ll be wrong.

Read the whole thing. You could do a lot worse for the Browns fan in your life this holiday season than  by way of a subscription to The OBR (but try to find out first if (s)he subscribes, because if (s)he’s literate, (s)he probably does).

———-

Here’s the best Bleacher Report article we’ve ever read, by Brian Klein:

“It’s impossible to bridge the gap between futility and dynasty without hitting a few bumps. The past two games represent those bumps and the answer for once is not to turn around and start over.”

———-<

Finally, we’re back at Browns Stadium on Sunday, home for the holiday:

[Browns linebacker David] Bowens, a team captain, promised to do whatever he could to help turn things around [next week against the Ravens] the same way he did last year down the stretch.

“It’s going to start with me as one of the defensive captains, one of these leaders,” said Bowens. “I’m going to make sure that everyone’s on the same page for these last two games. It’s the least I can do for this team.”

———-

We’ll be back tomorrow with some inside details on the Plain Dealer’s pageview plan, some Bowl picks, and who knows what else?

  • BrownsWest

    Hey Frowns, losing sucks. Period. That being said, really glad you're writing (along with a very few others) a reasoned perspective. Next year will be excruciating if we start anew AGAIN.

  • Biki

    I love Bowens, but it seems to me that the defensive captain of the team should be making sure that "everyone's on the same page" for the entire season, not just for these last 2 games.

  • Cleveland Frowns

    And of course, the Browns lost to a more talented team because the players "no longer believe in the coaches."

    http://www.ohio.com/sports/112166199.html

    Marla Ridenour, everyone.

  • Chris

    Well, he didn't play yesterday, so it's a little hard to blame him for Operation: Sieve.

  • Brian Sipe

    Very odd that when the Browns lose to another bad team the city explodes in negativity like it is out right to beat any bad team… Lots of good teams lose to bad teams every week in the NFL. Yes, wins would be much better but it is not like we got rolled by anyone.

    I was row 2 right behind the Browns yesterday. The team came out hyped up and lots of highfives and O hanging with D on bench, etc. However, once the D started giving up 5000 rushing yards you could see guys were beat coming off the field.

    Juts beat Pitt or Balt and I am fine with this year… I had us down for 6 wins this year.

  • Blake

    I think Grossi is now 4-10 picking Browns games for the Plain Dealer. Does that mean he is in the "hot seat" as the Browns beat writer? God I hope so.

  • Cleveland Frowns

    Note to anonymous "Sean" and whoever else thinks he has a right to come in here and post whatever bullshit.

    This is a community here. Free speech doesn't mean I have to use my audience to give you a platform, it means you have every right to create your own where you can post whatever bullshit you want. The internet is free. The folks who post bullshit here have earned the right to do that.

    OK, thx.

    —–

    Good point about Bowens, Chris. There was a loooot of Trusnick out there yesterday. And it's going to be a hell of an uphill battle with Wright out for the last two. Bubba's back!

  • rgrunds

    FrOrange,

    Primarily right…there has been a net improvement in the team. It shows in the margin by which the team loses (very small number of points) and the entertaining/competitive nature of the games.

    The play calling could be better. Running Hillis up the middle on 3rd and 1 was something we did last week. Failed then too. If teams aren't worried about roll outs, slants and other things to change the shape of the defensive box, then runs into the line aren't going to work.

    We had success with nerve and imaginative plays. We lost our nerve and imagination in Buffahole and Cincinnati.

  • CleveBalla

    Yo frowns i see da browns losing da last two, which gon be da opposite ending from last year

    I jus be wondering,,,ya see da browns splittin da last two, or winning both?

    ……but i say keep doin ya thing frowns, i got ya back, ya digggg.

  • Chuck

    "It's impossible to bridge the gap between futility and dynasty without hitting a few bumps. The past two games represent those bumps and the answer for once is not to turn around and start over."

    It really is a great summary of where things stand. And is why I still feel positive about this season and the coaching staff.

    HOWEVER, 4 games becomes more than a bump in the road. And that is why these final 2 games are so important. Just like the final 4 games gave everyone great reason to feel positive about the trajectory under Mangini, the final 4 this year can say a lot about the direction. But since I have come around to the less-arbitrary wins/losses barometer (per frowns sound logic), this does not mean we need to win these games. I'd just like to see performances that resemble and hopefully build upon our earlier hard fought games with Balt & Pitt.

  • Nick

    F Holmgren for allowing this Mangini nonsense to go on. He could stop this anytime. Why is Holmgren's job secure anymore than Mangini's? His #1 stated goal this year was to bring stability to the QB position. fail.

    Time is precious, especially during the holidays, and we are wasting valuable time on mangini's job security. I'm done worrying about it.

    Either Mangini is kept for a third year. All is right in the world, and a super bowl will follow.

    Or he gets fired. Gets hired somewhere else immediately, you know because he's a good coach, and Cleveland has another bullet to put on its resume of sports sadness.

  • Chuck

    either way, reading your article sort of depressed me frowns. there is a small sense of resignation in your tone. this grossi-led drumbeat is eating away at a significant portion of otherwise reasonable humans. and i fear (and perhaps you do, if i am right about the resignation) that this drumbeat is going to be a tipping point for holmgren to make a move.

    i hope i am wrong. but couple the bad finish with holmgrens suspect bye week presser and i dont feel good about manginis chances.

    and then we are starting all over. sort of. again. depressing.

  • Music Man

    Three consecutive road games is tough regardless of who is on the schedule. 1-2 out of these three games given this roster is acceptable IMO.

    Can anyone confirm if Grossi is still urinating his Bengal Zumbaz?

  • Art Brosef

    Tony Grossi said the record is not improving "fast enough" and they have an "insistence on not creating a complete team."

    So per usual, more statements about the record without examining any reason why that might be the case.

    He also continually talked about the Browns field goal "on their first possession." Um, Tony did actually WATCH the game?

    I cant stop talking about it, so I apologize. But Im truly disgusted at the way these Cleveland media members literally recoice when the Browns lose.

    And youre right Tony, Im sure they dont want to "create a complete team."

  • Mike

    Mangini saved his job with a four-game losing streak that was an IN YOUR FACE to everyone who had counted to two while one-two-threeing him into the dumpster last year.

    So to lose his job after a four-game losing streak puts a disappointing period on what started as an optimistic season seems fairly fitting. If it happens, it happens. It won't set the franchise back any more than keeping him will move the franchise forward.

    And if the Browns bring in Jon Gruden, no one will even remember how to spell Mangini's name.

  • Jaceczko

    I don't get it with the fire-the-coach people. It's like they think there are HOF-caliber coaches just lining up to want to come to Cleveland and coach a team which has set the benchmark for futility for a decade.

    Yeah, right.

    And now you have a coach with a good pedigree and a good track record before coming to Cleveland, a coach who has cured the franchise of the culture of undisciplined, selfish, show-up-when-I-feel-like-it, penalty-committing attitudes, and molded a locker room of men who would walk through fire for each other.

    And people want him to get the axe so we can get…who?

    Who's supposed to be this Super Bowl lock coach who's just begging to coach the perennially-losing in a frigid town Browns?

    Where the fans don't even give you two years to rebuild from scratch?

    Where the fans can't process data from more than one game at a time?

    Where the fans don't care about any statistics for measuring improvement, other than wins and losses?

    Even Bill Cowher had bad seasons in Pittsburgh, following up a Super Bowl victory with a 6 – 10 season for crying out loud.

  • rgrunds

    Chuck's right. Four games were suspect. Have to expand perspective to the entire season, not just the last two games.

  • Art Brosef

    Mike, you dont think hiring a new coach "sets the franchise back." Im going to have disagree, it almost always does. Its not just the coach that leaves, its every coach, each with a different philosophy than their predecessor. So the players have to learn new schemes (Thanks to LeCharles I knew precisely how to use those two terms), and coaches may not want the existing players because they dont fit with said philosophies. Rebuilding for the long terms takes time, and firing a coach after two years into the process is a huge set back, as it negates whats been done during the first two years, which obviously, are the two most trying years.

  • Art Brosef

    Jaceczko: Dont you listen to Chris freaking Fedor?!?!? He gave you a list of candidates that are obvious upgrades over Mangini, DUH!!!

    They include the likes of: Leslie Frazier, John Fox, John Gruden, and Brian Billick!! Cmon, their 2 super bowl wins in 43 seasons speak for themselves!!

  • Art Brosef

    Also, after last game I think there is a very strong argument for a pass rusher in the first round.

    Not that there wasnt before, I suppose.

  • Brian Sipe

    Does anyone have a phone number for the Steelers and Ravens? I wanted to call them to let them know that the staff at KNR says run first and defense first football is dead and "antiquated". I guess this "West Coast" football with munimum D is the in thing these days with the young, hip kids.

  • smittypop2

    So….the Bucs, Chiefs, Jets, Lions, Raiders and Rams all hired new coaches in 09 and they all have improved in the past year or 2—-that means nothing because they all had such solid organizations and none of them had to rebuild and clear out rosters. Josh McDaniels was also a new coach and he has already been fired for his ineptitude. The Colts are the other team with a new coach (from the 09 class) and they have been down for a number of reasons. I guess we should just ignore what all these other teams have done and just assume we are lucky enough to have such a genius coaching the team that the record/playcalling/clock management/ingame decision making doesn't matter at all. If anyone is bored go down to the post below and read my comments for further explanation.

  • Art Brosef

    And you dont think the Browns have improved? Just because it doesnt reflect itself in the "record", the Browns havent improved?

    The Bucs, Jets, and Lions all have 1st round QB, and the Chief have a proven commodity at that position. The Raiders, have a 1st round RB and have had an above average D the last few years.

    The Browns were completely dismantled. Its apples and oranges.

  • Cleveland Frowns

    The only possible comparison to the Browns by way of a decade of organizational ineptitude and its impact on the roster is the Detroit Lions. There's no way to argue otherwise. Sorry, Smitty.

  • Mike

    No, Art, I don't think firing Mangini would set back the franchise. That's because I believe they wouldn't be firing Mangini just to fire him. Holmgren would already have a replacement in mind — either himself or Jon Gruden.

    I don't believe the current brass would fire Mangini and then go through a coaching search. Well, maybe they'd go through one just for show, but they'd already know who they are hiring.

  • jimkanicki

    imo, the team really hasn't played with fire since the jets game. actually, make that the first half of the jets game. i remember the 10 min drive they had to start the 2nd half (missed FG) and then they had another 7min drive in the 4th qtr (made FG). (who knew scott fujita –injured in 1st half– was so pivotal to the defense?)

    every game since (except cinci) has seemed within reach and for whatever reason –again, my opinion– the fire to win has not been there. mccoy and hillis said as much about cincy; mccoy noticed it before cincy: "We've got to have more energy on the sidelines," said McCoy, who went 2-3 in his first five starts. "We've got to be a little more amped up, more excited when we make a play and let's build off of that. Let's make another one."

    some of this 'lack of energy' has to be traced back to the soul-sucking conservative game planning. when taken to extreme, the 'avoiding mistakes' mentality trumps 'making plays' in the players' minds. i think this leads to 3yd checkdown passes on 2nd/20 ('at least i didnt throw a pick.' or 10 yds of cushion from our CBs ('i'm gonna make damn sure i don't get beat long.')

    i haven't been a fan of some of playcalls, but i'll concede that i dont know everything the coaches factor into the calls. i cant explain why the defense has such a hard time getting off the field. the reasons behind tactical decisions made in game are unknowable to us. i'm willing to give the coaches the benefit of the doubt and allow theyve seen tendencies or are planning to keep individuals' weaknesses from being exposed.

    it's the 'make no mistakes' philosophy that seems to have hamstrung us since the pats game. it's sucking the energy out of the players. and can even understand that this philosophy is residual from 'change-the-romeo-culture' agenda.

    the question i have is whether mangini can adapt and, basically, get to encouraging players make plays and accepting that mistakes cant ever be completely eliminated.

    —-
    as far as coaching change, i'm going to trust holmgren. i dont see him changing for change sake. i remember when canned schottenheimer got sacked without first making sure there was a better coach available. hello bud carson. ugh. if holmgren does anything i'm pretty sure he'll have a replacement lined up beforehand.

    last point. i've seen some disparaging comments about john fox here and on wfny. i watched a lot of panthers ball in the last five years (gf was from charlotte and had DTV). i hope you'll trust me when i tell you that the guy is solid.

  • Malcolm Mathers

    I don`t really get the whole substabtialimprovement argument. Shouldn`t we expect that just based off the talent infusion from last season alone? When you upgrade from DA,BQ and Jamal Lewis to Delhomme,Wallace,McCoy, Hillis and Watson and then throw in Fujita,Sheldon Brown,Haden and Ward on the defensive side is that alone a catalyst for improvement? Why is it a feather in Mangini`s hat?
    There`s no question that he "changed the culture" and they get penalized less, and that definitely is to his credit.

    Would Mike Holmgran really be a mouth foaming lunatic to fire Mangini? Put yourself in his shoes. You obviously would prefer a more pass happy west coast offense style, because you think that it yields better results. You give Mangini another year with the promise that his team will outwork the competition and control the clock. Then you watch the last four games against teams including arguably three of the worst in the NFL and your team gets dominated in the trenches and completely outworked. Is he really a foaming lunatic if he decides to go in another direction? Mind you, i actually feel Mangini should probably be retained because he`s a pretty decent coach and has been i n the past, but I`m beginning to think sometimes there isn`t that much more objectivity around here than there is on cleveland.com.

  • jimkanicki

    art, i call your vote for a pass rush and i'll raise you with a call for a 4-3 defense.

    given the lack of talent throughout the team, it bothers me that we run a _scheme_ that forces us to sit one of our top players. ie, either rogers or rubin is usually on the bench when we're in a 3-4 since they both play nose. how cool would it be to line those two up at tackle? guarantee those two will force opponent to put three, often four blockers on them. this would leave things wide open for robaire smith and…. wait for it…. NICK FAIRLEY to bust through on the edge.

    mmm. how's that taste?

  • Malcolm Mathers

    And the fact they got outworked this past game is not something I made up; just ask Peyton Hillis and Colt McCoy.

  • Other Dave

    Never posted here. It certainly comes down to not only your perception of the roster from the start of 2009, but also the extent to which a team can improve in a year or two. The consensus here seems to be that our talent was worst in the league last year, and is still in that area after our offseason transactions. Early success this year then wasn't the result of roster improvement, but Mangini's coaching.

    So there's improvement, but not enough to change the record, given our tougher schedule. Not enough to be a step up on the 2010 Panthers, Bills or Bengals. That's a damn small step, and one that suggests years to contention.

    This is how I read the Frown's view. It's depressing, and it ends up being fairly pro-Mangini (he'd have to be an awful coach to fail in such a situation), but those are effects, not causes. And I think it's probably correct.

    sigh
    We'll keep waiting then.

  • Dan

    Hey Frowns,

    Great work fighting the forces of stupidity on here. Been lurking for awhile and I am 100% on the Keep Coach train.

    Why people can't understand that coaches, like players, need time, experience, support and continuity to grow and improve is beyond me.

    I think four years is the MINIMUM any coach needs to be fairly judged. Good Lord, Charlie Weis got FIVE years at Notre Dame and left almost as bad a situation on defense as Savage did.

    But after FOUR years, everyone knew what the fifth meant. And that same logic needs to take root here.

    The Browns are not only talent poor this year, they are organizationally talent STARVED. To fire the head coach in his second year — first with professional talent people getting actual talent — is absolutely asking to be set back AT LEAST one year as the whole organization has to recalibrate.

    It would be foolish beyond belief. Keep up the good fight.

  • doctj

    One criticism of Mangini in NY was lack of in game adjustments which seemed to manifest itself yesterday. The Bengals adjusted when TO went out and committed to the run. Why couldn't we stop it? The Bengals doubled their average run total on us. Conversely when the Bengals stacked the box to to stop the run, why didn't we counter? If the opposing team respects the run doesn't that leave play action open? I remember the days when the Browns couldn't even attempt do that as no one respected our running game. I hate to agree with Grossi but I think the last two game plans have been too conservative. IMHO Mangini should complete his 4 yr contract but with losses like the last 2 he's losing the media war and may lose his job as a result.

  • Believelander

    @Mike: How to spell "Mangini": N. o. t. o. v. e. r. r. a. t. e. d. l. i. k. e. J. o. n. G. r. u. d. e. n.

  • Believelander

    @Smitty: we're 1-year removed from a 30+ year old Mike Furrey _STARTING_ for the Browns at both safety and wideout. But you're right, we definitely had all the pieces in place to wave our magic wand and go to the playoffs.

    Hey, here's an idea, how about if Holmgren wanted to expect the Browns to win a bunch of games this year, they'd taken a run at acquiring some players?

    Miles Austin, Vincent Jackson, Anquain Boldin, T.J. Houshmanzadeh, Tony Scheffler, Owen Daniels, (owait we did gotted Ben Watson), Alan Faneca (lol Tony Pashos IR LOL!), Julius Peppers, John Henderson, Aaron Kampman, Trevor Pryce, Keith Bulluck, Elvis Dumervil, Oshiomogho Atogwe, Antoine Bethea, NICK COLLINS, etc. etc. etc.

    OK, so we got a good tight end, a good linebacker, an injured lineman, and a quarterback who was a shadow of his former self. Woot. I don't know who the Browns did or didn't call, but at the end of the day, somehow the Browns not winning 10 games in a season they were expected to not win 10 games means that Eric Mangini is a fail and should be fired. At least I can't complain about Smitty too much, because he sticks to his Mangini-hating guns. Like Tony Grossi.

    word ver: pencenis. AKA Tony Grossi's face.

  • Believelander

    @Chuck: we should reduce ourselves to a drunken haze after the season until next training camp.

    @Frowns: I just realized something about how much less awesome Rex Ryan is than Eric Mangini. For them to reach the Colts last playoffs, Nate Kaeding missed three field goals when they played the Chargers. The (Mangini-installed) defense -did- handle the Chargers well, but a freak game from the MOST ACCURATE KICKER IN NFL HISTORY EVER SINCE FOREVER IN ALL OF TIME THAT HAS EVER HAPPENED SINCE THE ENTIRE WORLD AND UNIVERSE (Nate Kaeding, 86.5%), and Rex Ryan who got spotted 2 free wins as opposed to E-Mangini who got spotted 4 losses by Brett Favre is suddenly some kind of supergenius.

    How to spell "Mangini?"

    N. o. t. o. v. e. r. r. a. t. e. d. l. i. k. e. R. e. x. R. y. a. n.

  • Carl

    Peter,

    You're a nice guy, but you made a mistake putting all your eggs in the Mangini basket.

    He's a bright guy, can be likable, and surly understands the x and o's of coaching. But so do a hundred other guys. Managing people is difficult. No one way of dealing with people. But the man is an extremely poor in-game coach. That will not work in the NFL, but might at the college level, where getting younger players to do things fundamentally correctly can win games.

    Anyway, you've painted yourself into a corner by being a blog all about Mangini.

    I wish you well. My perspective at my age doesn't seem to fit with yours of any other blog.

    So be it.

    P.S. The Jet game was in fact the turning point. All the things that came out later were present in that game. But you and the other fans were so drunk on being competitive after beating the Saints and Pats that you all ignored what later came out. The other teams adjusted, and Mangini and his coordinators had no idea how to turn it. The Bills and Bengals proved that if you want to eat up the clock by simply running – almost any team can do it….it's much, much easier for linemen to run block than pass block. But the NFL is a passing league as far as the better teams are concerned. The West Coast Offense will be run next year, and while it is pass-first and uses the pass to set up the run, they still run the ball quite a bit. It should be fun to watch. The talent on the Browns is much further along than most people think.

  • Believelander

    @Biki: I got nothing against the Jets, btw, them beating the Steelers makes me want to hump Rex Ryan's love handle.

    @Mike: getting Jon Gruden, no matter how much the Big Show supposedly has been planning this since 1942, will cause the team to backslide because he's just not that good of a coach. Other than that Super Bowl he won on a Super Bowl contending team that he walked onto, he's never done anything. I guess you could say he got jipped by the Tuck Rule, but, hey. No Jon Gruden fellaters pointed out that the only reason he got to pick up Tony Dungy's championship squad and not really do anything but get credit for the win is because of the Burt Emmanuel call, which, unlike the Tuck Rule, was decided by the NFL to be incorrectly applied and led to a rule change preventing it from happening again.

    Yeah. That's like, historical football fact.

    Man, this has been fun, as much as it has not been fun watching the Vikings getting mandongled by the Bears. I think I'm going to write one more comment to Carl.

  • Believelander

    @Carl: LOL! Them Bears are DEFINITELY a far less talented NFL team than the Browns! ESPN RADIO said so! Watch how they untalentedly throw 67 yard touchdown passes over the head of the Minnesota defense! LMAO! They have Owen Daniels instead of Robert Royal and Johnny Knox who hauls in 40 yard completions in traffic, and a seasoned veteran quarterback with mobility, accuracy, and a cannon arm! And Lance Briggs, Julius Peppers, Brian Urlacher, Tommie Harris, and oh yeah a defense that shut down the Eagles who took a dump all over the touted Giants defense! Damn, if we just got Mike Martz and Lovie Smith, we would have won 11 Super Bowls this season!

    Christ. Everyone KNOWS that listening to that crap rots your brain faster than cutting your crack rocks with LSD.

  • doughbread

    Can someone please give me some examples of this bad clock managmenet that is brought up?

    Also I think that its easy to say fire Mangini and let's bring in Gruden, he is the guy who can turn it around in Cleveland and get this team on a roll. I just don't understand. He didn't do great rebuilding the Bucks after they got into salary cap hell and bad draft classes.

    Does anyone really think that Holmgren is listening to anyone in the media? He has been in this league for a long time and he isn't going to base his desicion on what hacks like Grossi or anyone else says. This will be a discussion between Holmgren, Heckert, Haskins, and Lerner. I don't think anyone else will have a say in the matter.

    Let's drop the typical Midwest attitude and be happy that we have 2 more weeks of football left.

  • Cleveland Frowns

    Real quick on the things here that make the least sense:

    Mike: I know folks like to say that Mangini saved his job with a 4-game win streak, but it has to be a lot more complicated than that. The same is true about a 4-game losing streak. It's like you want to deliberately avoid seeing the big picture.

    Jim: The press takes the McCoy/Hills quotes out of context and you buy it hook, line and sinker. Ever think that getting your ass kicked by a more talented opponent tends to create a lack of energy? Also, ever think that those "soul-sucking play calls" are exactly what keeps the team competing in games against more talented opponents? Ever think that the wheels might fall off if they tried to go 'full throttle' with this bunch? I know Marla Ridenour doesn't, but don't you feel an obligation to at least consider those obvious alternative explanations? Don't you see how ridiculous it is to jump to the opposite conclusions given the talent on this roster? I dunno. Sad.

    Carl: Re: "Painting myself into a corner" by supporting Mangini, I'll say again that it's less about Mangini himself than it is about firing a coach of an obviously improving football team that started from scratch last season and shouldn't be judged on wins and losses. Not only is it bad management, but it's fundamentally unjust. I have a feeling folks will keep reading even if Holmgren ends up disagreeing. Just a hunch. I know you have a hard time with this idea, but maybe consider that it's a lot less about being right about everything than it is about being able to consistently provide clear rational analyses (which sometimes do, in fact, turn out to be wrong).

    Today's post will be up late. Look for it around lunchtime.

  • Brian Sipe

    we keep blaming the press and they do deserve blame. However, most of this falls in Holmgren/Lerner's lap to me….

    Show me one moment all season where Holmgren showed he had Mangini's back or had a positive reaction to anything the team did on field?!

    There are NONE! Unless you count his presser where he said he may coach again, the offense is foreign to him and the D gives him an upset stomach trying to figure out what they are doing.

  • Chuck

    sipe has a great point.

    that bye week presser was particularly troubling. probably wouldn't change grossi-types, but could be something for the pro-mangini camp to fall back on if it seemed holmgren had his back.

  • jimkanicki

    here's that quote again frownie:

    "We've got to have more energy on the sidelines," said McCoy, …. "We've got to be a little more amped up, more excited when we make a play and let's build off of that. Let's make another one."

    i surely am naive on many things, but i think i can figure out that the context this is taken out of refers to an uninspired football team. i do not think this reporting of this quote furthers a greater PD agenda to foment anti-mangini sentiment in order to drive page views. naive, maybe. sad? no.

    as far as conservative game planning keeping games close, no argument. here's a stat demonstrates this:

    offensive TDs by half, ytd
    1st half, 16
    2nd half, 8

    this does keep games close, but i'd be ok with trying to extend our leads. (sorry, sarc.) but seriously, stats like that lend support to mccoy's 'energy' observation, long 2nd half drives allowed by our D, and my use of the descriptor soul-sucking.

  • Cleveland Frowns

    Kanicki: Where do you address the idea that what's soul sucking and energy draining is getting your ass kicked by a bigger stronger faster opponent?

    I still don't see it.

    What's sad is that the obvious alternative explanation gets ignored.

    That is, in fact, sad.

    And yes, it's understood that the team runs out of arrows in the second-half.

  • Shephusky

    Mangini has poor time management skills. Over and over and over again he has let time run off the clock near halftime instead of trying something. Driving down the field with 90 sec. left. How many times have we seen Peyton Manning do that and have 15 seconds left over? He gives up too many times where 3 points is the difference between victory and defeat.

  • Malcolm Mathers

    "This team runs out of arrows on the second half." No sure what that even means. Are you trying to say that there is some twist in the game plan that we use in the first half that teams figure out at halftime and stop us in the second half? And again, Frownie, why shouldn`t this team be much improved based just off the upgrades they made at QB, RB, TE, plus Fujita and the brand new secondary? Should`t that be at least considered when we try to figure out why this team i s playing better?

  • jimkanicki

    didnt mean to ignore. are we talking about bigger stonger faster 2-win cinci or bigger stronger faster 2-win buffalo? were the 1-win panthers bigger stronger faster when they overcame a 14 point first half deficit and only lost on a missed FG?

    the 'talent-bereft' argument is leaking water after the last couple weeks. seems equally valid to consider that there could be other reasons for the acknowledged lack of energy.

  • Ron

    It's been said before, but it's worth repeating:

    This:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Cleveland_Browns_head_coaches

    and This:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Pittsburgh_Steelers_head_coaches

    says it all.

    We haven't given a coach more than 5 years since Rutigliano. The media ran Belichick out of town also. We might've had a superbowl or three in this town by now if (most) fans and the media would give our coaches some room to make mistakes and grow.

  • Biki

    i have watched all of holmgren's pressers and feel he has been very complimentary of the coaching staff for the most part. but even if he was negative, i don't believe that the Team Prez should acting like they are smelling the roses with a sub.500 record. as the face of the browns nation, he needs the fans to know that he feels their sense of urgency.

    besides, who cares what's written in the media. we still can't fully guage the impact of the media on the players on-field performance. these guys are professional athletes and coaches and it's their livelihood. all of them are busting their butt for the most part. you play to win the game. if the team was winning these close games, the media would be loving it. if not they have to go negative. it sells papers.

    thank god for Frowns to give us some rational analysis!

  • Chris

    "How many times have we seen Peyton Manning do that and have 15 seconds left over? "

    How the hell did Peyton Manning get moved into this conversation?

    For the record, if I had Harrison and Wayne on the field at the same time, I could probably drive the field in 75 seconds.

    That's an apples to turds comparison here, sorry.

    Of course, it's probably Mangini's fault that Peyton Manning isn't on this team, right?

  • Malcolm Mathers

    Frownie,

    Thanks for responding.

    "And again, Frownie, why shouldn`t this team be much improved based just off the upgrades they made at QB, RB, TE, plus Fujita and the brand new secondary?"

    In no particular order.

    So…..
    1.) Every team makes upgrades;

    2.) Despite the upgrades this team has made, it still has critical holes at certain positions that make it impossible to compete at a certain level.

    3.) The schedule this season has been brutal, and

    4.) Yeah, Fujita helped a lot when he played.

    1)So just because every team makes upgrades we can't attribute their improved performance to that?

    2) True.

    3)Right,so therefore what? Do you mean there is so much improvement that the talent influx can't possible account for all of it? That's debatable.

    4)Right, and since he got injured the defense has been problematic, which further points to the possibility that it's talent and not coaching that improved the team this year.

    "Yes. I am. Bernie Kosar has said exactly the same thing, and it makes sense. You can only outscheme a team for so long."

    That's one way to explain the fact that they have half as many touchdowns in the second half of games than the first half. Isn't another plausible explanation Kanicki's, that the play calling get's very conservative in the second half?

    Also, although this is pure speculation, not sure that Bernie Kosar, who had/would like a job with the Browns organization, would make many friends in the front office by bashing the coaches, so not sure what to make of that.

  • smittypop2

    @Frownie,

    Here is what I have learned this year at frowns.com

    A)The Browns (and other teams) record(s) means nothing.

    B)The SOS (which doesn't seem to effect either Pittsburgh or Baltimore) is the key to everything.

    C)We have no talent on this team and should be expected to lose to any team in this league on any given week. Despite all of this the blogrunner bet over the Vegas average (for a large number of units) for the expected win total each of the past 2 seasons.

    D)No other team in the league has had to do any sort of rebuilding in the past couple of years (please ignore prennial winners TB/KC/Oak/STL having any sort of improvement).

    E)The coach can do no wrong. EVER!

    Does this pretty much sum things up?

  • Brian Sipe

    It is odd to me that few are talking about Holmgren coaching, but rather other candidates. Although I want Mangini to stay I think all signs leads to Holmgren as he has said as much whenever asked if you listen. His long time O Cord Gil Haskill has already spent a year as a team mole seeing all that goes on within the team for Holmgren so they can make a quick start next year. Holmgren never wants another Seattle situation where he is stripped of power and by taking the team President job no one ever can strip him of anytihng as a coach. The final kicker is that he picked his own GM which we all swore was a horrible thing in the NFL, but in this case Holmgren knows that Heckart is used to being a number 2 as he was for Andy Reid for years in Philly not too mention he has no choice since Holmgren too will be his boss. I hate the entire scenerio.

  • Sleeping With Bieniemy

    "Hey, with Marvin Lewis a sure goner in Cincy at the end of this season, say Holmgren gives into his worst impulses and does the unthinkable, fires a coach of an obviously improved team two seasons into a massive rebuild? Bengals owner Mike Brown could certainly do a hell of a lot worse to replace Lewis."

    As a lifelong Bengals fan, Pete, I can assure you that Mangini would never accept the circumstances under which he would have to coach under Mike Brown's ownership (can't hire your own assistants, have input on personnel, second rate or no practice facilities, etc…).

    The Bengals are headed back towards lost decade number two under Mikey and the inevitability of it all has made me so apathetic I can't even take pleasure in the schadenfreude of your own media submarining the promising direction in which the Browns have been headed (in fact, I sacrilegiously kind of like your team).

    But as desolate as the sports landscape has become for Cleveland recently, losing your good, young coach to the Bengals is not something you have to worry about making things worse.

  • Jaceczko

    From yesterday's Grossi Mangini Hatefest (http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2010/12/tony_grossi_talks_browns-benga.html)

    Grossi: "The Browns don't have a 1 WR."

    Check.

    Grossi: "The Quarterback play by McCoy has been decent at best, and the rookie is the best quarterback on the roster."

    Check.

    Grossi: "The Browns only have one guy on the line, and that's Ahtyba Rubin. They've got nobody else."

    Check.

    Grossi: "You can't win with one playmaker on offense, and that's Peyton Hillis. He can't carry the whole season on his own, and you can't run up the middle on the goal line."

    Check.

    So, Mr. Grossi, you're saying the Browns don't have the players to win this year, right?

    Grossi: Yeah, but it's still all the coaches' fault.

  • Chris

    So Frowns… We're talking about 3pm in Chicago, or Denver, or… Honolulu?

  • stkoran

    The premise: coaching continuity leads to success.

    Let’s look at the data. From 2000-2009 the four best teams win wise have been:

    1. Indianapolis 115 wins
    2. New England 112 wins
    T3. Philadelphia 103 wins
    T3. Pittsburgh 103 wins

    Indy has had three coaches during this time, NE one, Philly one, and Pitt two, but all have been extremely stable.

    Indy’s first two years were with Mora, who went .500, before the Dungy era started. Dungy then retired and was replaced by his assistant head coach Jim Caldwell. So the system remained in place even after Dungy left.

    New England has been Belichick the whole time, and there was never any reason to doubt he should be kept.

    Philly has been Reid the whole time as well. After winning no less that eleven games from 00-04, the Eagles struggled (relatively), going only 33-30-1 from 05-08. Did the Eagles ditch Reid? No, they stuck with him, and they have since gone 11-5 and are currently at 10-4 sitting atop the NFC East.

    As for Pittsburgh, Cowher coached them for 15 years before retiring after the 06 season. Pittsburgh replaced him with Vikings DC Mike Tomlin, but continuity remained, as Tomlin kept on DC Dick Lebeau and promoted WR coach Bruce Arians to OC when Ken Wisenhunt left to coach Arizona. As for Cowher, from 98-00 he went only 22-26. Did Pittsburgh can him? No, they stuck with him, and he came back the next year to win 13 games. In 03 the Steelers went 6-10. Fire Cowher? No, they decided to keep him and were rewarded with a 15-1 season followed by a Super Bowl win the next year.

    Let’s add all the teams that won 90+ games from 2000-2009 in as well. They are:

    5. Green Bay 95 wins
    6. Denver 93 wins
    7. Baltimore 92 wins
    8. Tennessee 91 wins

    Green Bay had two coaches during this period, Mike Sherman and Mike McCarthy. I’m not really a huge fan of either. Two is still certainly less than four, and the roster is brimming with talent.

    Denver had two coaches as well. Mike Shanahan coached the team from 95-08. He was then fired and replaced with Josh McDaniels, and I think we all know how that worked out.

    Baltimore was also led by two men during this period, Brian Billick and John Harbaugh. After early success, Billick went only 50-46, including three losing seasons, from 02-07 with a roster as talented as any in the league. He, and the entire staff, were fired and replaced by Harbaugh. Though the staff changed, the philosophy of the team remains the same, and they have posted three straight winning campaigns.

    As for the Titans, Jeff Fisher has been in charge since 1995.

  • stkoran

    Let’s add all the teams that won 90+ games from 2000-2009 in as well. They are:

    5. Green Bay 95 wins
    6. Denver 93 wins
    7. Baltimore 92 wins
    8. Tennessee 91 wins

    Green Bay had two coaches during this period, Mike Sherman and Mike McCarthy. I’m not really a huge fan of either. Two is still certainly less than four, and the roster is brimming with talent.

    Denver had two coaches as well. Mike Shanahan coached the team from 95-08. He was then fired and replaced with Josh McDaniels, and I think we all know how that worked out.

    Baltimore was also led by two men during this period, Brian Billick and John Harbaugh. After early success, Billick went only 50-46, including three losing seasons, from 02-07 with a roster as talented as any in the league. He, and the entire staff, were fired and replaced by Harbaugh. Though the staff changed, the philosophy of the team remains the same, and they have posted three straight winning campaigns.

    As for the Titans, Jeff Fisher has been in charge since 1995.

  • stkoran

    While this cursory analysis seems to show that franchise success is tied to coaching continuity, that doesn’t simply mean teams should blindly stick with their coach. Certainly you want to see the team moving in the right direction. Eric Mangini took over a team coming off of a disastrous 4-12 campaign that saw them score an average of 5.2 points over the final six games of the season. Mangini went on to clean house in order to start to build the team his way. Were all of his personnel decisions the best? Certainly not, and the draft was somewhat suspect. But we Mangini no longer controls personnel decisions, he is a coach only. In any event, he took a talent depleted roster and unloaded some its biggest talents in order to form an actual team that bought into his philosophy. After taking several beatings to start the season (34-3, 31-3, 30-6, 27-6), the team became much more competitive out of the bye week, and eventually won the final four games of the season. The team’s most talented player, Joshua Cribbs, had this to say after the final game:

    "He came in here and he turned it around. What he's brought to this team, the discipline … to win four straight like that, getting the group of guys he wanted, it's a slow start because it takes some time to get that group of guys that you want on your team that's going to fight hard. He is surrounding this football team with hungry players that want to fight no matter their contracts, no matter the score."

  • stkoran

    That sounds like the kind of team I want, and it certainly sounded like our best player bought into it (wait, I thought Mangini couldn’t deal with big talents, hmmmm). Now in his second year, Mangini has led a team that has been competitive in every single game they have played. Last year, the point differential was -130. This year it stands at -19. We have lost two games by 10 or more points (Atlanta by 10, when we were down only three in the 4th quarter before a hobbled Delhomme had a batted ball picked and returned for a TD and to Pittsburgh by 18 in our rookie QBs first NFL start on the road, with two of the Steelers scores coming off of 13 and 18 yard TD drives due to a muffed punt and an interception). We have used three QBs this year due to injury. D’Qwell Jackson was lost for the entire season. Our top defensive free agent acquisition (Fujita) has missed significant time due to injury. The same for starting corner Eric Wright. Our young wide receiver, while hopefully still developing, would likely start for no team in the league. Our starting right tackle, John St. Clair, would likely not be on the roster of another NFL team. Cribbs, the best returning player on the team has missed time and been significantly slowed down by injury.

    Yet the team continues to fight. Losses to at the time two win teams Buffalo and Cincinnati have many up in arms. These were supposed to be “easy wins” against “bad teams.” Really? Since when are there games that the Cleveland Browns should win? This is a franchise that has had three winning seasons in the last 20 years. But suddenly we are “supposed” to be beating teams?

  • stkoran

    This is a team that was rated 29th out of 32 teams coming into the season by ESPN. And now they are “supposed” to beat the defending AFC North champions on the road, a team that has been most hampered by costly interceptions, in a game where their QB plays flawlessly? And we are “supposed” to beat a Buffalo team on the road that is in the midst of 4-5 stretch where four of the five losses have been to 1)by three in OT to the 10-4 Ravens, 2)by three in OT to the 9-5 Chiefs, 3)by three to the 10-4 Bears, and 4)by three in OT to the 10-4 Steelers when a wide open Steve Johnson dropped what would have been a game winning TD. Playoff teams are eeking out wins against the Bills by the skin of their teeth, but the Cleveland Browns, they who have not won one playoff game since 1987, are suddenly supposed to dispose with teams without so much as a second thought? Please. And when the losses seem to stem from awful QB play and a costly fumble by our fan favorite running back on a dumb play (Buffalo) and a defense getting blown off the line on running plays (Cincinnati), it is apparently Mangini’s fault because he a) didn’t replace said QB with a career backup or b) didn’t take over the defensive play calling from Rob Ryan, considered to be one of, if not the best, DCs in the league.

    Over the past two seasons I found myself often wondering if the Browns should even be playing NFL football, as they often looked so overmatched. I now see a team that is competitive every single week, yet somehow people believe Mangini is not doing a good job and should be fired, and I just don’t understand. Chris Fedor claims that Mangini can’t win a Super Bowl in Cleveland. Odds are he is correct. Winning the Super Bowl is extremely hard to do, and the Cleveland Browns have never played in one. This team was clearly not going to the Super Bowl, even with Lombardi calling the shots, Walsh running the offense and Belichick as DC. The talent wasn’t there this year, and it won’t be there next year. If we are able to go 8-8 next year and make the playoffs the following year, I will be ecstatic, because if things progress that way, it will mean that the Browns have built a solid team from the ground up, with a system in place, hopefully leading to playoff contention on a yearly basis. And hopefully one of those years will be a big year.

  • stkoran

    Over the past two seasons I found myself often wondering if the Browns should even be playing NFL football, as they often looked so overmatched. I now see a team that is competitive every single week, yet somehow people believe Mangini is not doing a good job and should be fired, and I just don’t understand. Chris Fedor claims that Mangini can’t win a Super Bowl in Cleveland. Odds are he is correct. Winning the Super Bowl is extremely hard to do, and the Cleveland Browns have never played in one. This team was clearly not going to the Super Bowl, even with Lombardi calling the shots, Walsh running the offense and Belichick as DC. The talent wasn’t there this year, and it won’t be there next year. If we are able to go 8-8 next year and make the playoffs the following year, I will be ecstatic, because if things progress that way, it will mean that the Browns have built a solid team from the ground up, with a system in place, hopefully leading to playoff contention on a yearly basis. And hopefully one of those years will be a big year.

  • Cleveland Frowns

    Wow, stkoran. Looks like we got a major upgrade from Carl.

    I'll read that in detail later. I gotta run now, but refresh the home page because a new post is up.

  • Cleveland Frowns

    Comment revised to remove unnecessary snapping at Kanicki. Sorry, Jim. That was over the line:

    Cleveland Frowns said…
    Mathers:

    "This team runs out of arrows on the second half." No sure what that even means. Are you trying to say that there is some twist in the game plan that we use in the first half that teams figure out at halftime and stop us in the second half?"

    Yes. I am. Bernie Kosar has said exactly the same thing, and it makes sense. You can only outscheme a team for so long.

    "And again, Frownie, why shouldn`t this team be much improved based just off the upgrades they made at QB, RB, TE, plus Fujita and the brand new secondary?"

    In no particular order.

    1.) Every team makes upgrades;

    2.) Despite the upgrades this team has made, it still has critical holes at certain positions that make it impossible to compete at a certain level.

    3.) The schedule this season has been brutal, and

    4.) Yeah, Fujita helped a lot when he played.

    Kanicki, the point is that the obvious explanation for a lack of energy is that they're getting their asses kicked by a bigger stronger faster group. You go out of your way to ignore this to make something up about these guys quitting. The Bills were well built to take advantage of the Browns weaknesses and Delhomme played a crappy game. I don't know how you even start to argue that the Bengals aren't more talented and just point to the teams' records.

    This roster is in the second year coming off of a complete teardown. There's only so many ways one can say it.

  • darrel

    While Peter's analysis is pretty good, I'm afraid wishful thinking and the execrable Grossi has driven it a bit beyond simply "reasonable."

    I understand the Bengals have a bit more than their 3-11 (!!) record would indicate. And you could say the same about the 4-10 (!) Bills, though really NOT about the 1-13 (!!!) Jaguars who we essentially played the same game against with essentially the same result.

    Simply put, take all the factors together, talent level, injuries, quarterback play, everything… these Browns are not over-performing. They were playing especially well midseason, and are playing especially badly now, in line with some of the talent that has been on and off the field. But basically it's right around expectations.

    Peter is acting like anyone who can't see the amazing, coach-inspired progress is just an idiot. Well, there are obviously good points, but I'm sorry, there is still a lot to dislike about Mangini as coach, both game-time and prep.

    First, you will have a hard time convincing any mathematician that critical decisions in NY, Buffalo, Jax, and Cinci were not provable mathematical errors made on the side of irrational conservatism and optimism about his team's ability. In the later game I include both not taking the 1 yard = +4 points equation when down by 9 with an under-performing defense, and dialing up a simple line plunge the play before– after having shown the exact same tendency in the previous week.

    In 3 razor's edge games in Mia, Jax and Buf, he stuck with a stuggling, lapsed Delhome all the way through. Good call or not? I say no, not as far as winning games, and I don't think that's all that moronic a statement.

    Why the love-affair with a soon-to-retire, no future, John St. Clair, who is having arguably the worst season of anyone in the NFL at that position? Why the grinding, predictable overuse of Hillis? I can come up with plausible answers for these questions, but I don't think they are reflective of obvious coaching genius.

    I still support Mangini at this point, I think he's a decent coach with some significant flaws– But I don't think Holmgren returning to the field would be any kind of disaster. Frankly, I think we have two good options that would offer their own strengths and weaknesses and their own kind of organizational continuity. For all the talk of a long process, 2011-2013 I now see as years that we can compete for this division. If (looming-but-unlikely lockout + owner with some risk tolerance) gives us the off-season I think we're capable of, we should be the one's pulling the K.C. next year. I really wouldn't mind either Fox or Homgren making game decisions on that team.

  • darrel

    While Peter's analysis is pretty good, I'm afraid wishful thinking and the execrable Grossi has driven it a bit beyond simply "reasonable."

    The Bengals 3-11 (!!) Bills 4-10 (!), and Jaguars 1-11 (!!!) may all be better than their records. Or not. We played about the same level and same game against each.

    Simply put, take all the factors together, talent level, injuries, quarterback play, everything… these Browns are not over-performing. They were playing especially well midseason, and are playing especially badly now. In line with some of the talent that has been on and off the field.

    Peter is acting like anyone who can't see the amazing, coach-inspired progress is just an idiot. Well, there are obviously good points, a better feeling based on those two big wins, but I'm sorry, there is still a lot to dislike about Mangini as coach, both game-time and prep.

    First, you will have a hard time convincing any mathematician that critical decisions in NY, Buffalo, Jax, and Cinci were not provable mathematical errors made on the side of irrational conservatism and optimism about his shallow team's 4th quarter abilities. In the later game I include both not taking the 1 yard = +4 points equation when down by 9 with an under-performing defense, and dialing up a simple line plunge the play before– after having shown the exact same tendency in the previous week.

    In 3 razor's edge games in Mia, Jax and Buf, he stuck with a stuggling, lapsed Delhome all the way through. Good call or not? I say no, not as far as winning games, and I don't think that's all that moronic a statement.

    Why the love-affair with a soon-to-retire, no future, John St. Clair, who is having arguably the worst season of anyone in the NFL at that position? Why the grinding, predictable overuse of Hillis? I can come up with plausible answers for these questions, but I don't think they are reflective of obvious coaching genius.

    I still support Mangini at this point, I think he's a decent coach with some significant flaws– But I don't think Holmgren returning to the field would be any kind of disaster. Frankly, I think we have two good options that would offer their own strengths and weaknesses and their own kind of organizational continuity. For all the talk of a long process, 2011-2013 I now see as years that we can compete for this division. If (looming-but-unlikely lockout + owner with some risk tolerance) gives us the off-season I think we're capable of, we should be the one's pulling the K.C. next year. I really wouldn't mind either Fox or Homgren making game decisions on that team.

  • darrel

    While Peter's analysis is pretty good, I'm afraid wishful thinking and the execrable Grossi has driven it a bit beyond simply "reasonable."

    The Bengals 3-11 (!!) Bills 4-10 (!), and Jaguars 1-11 (!!!) may all be better than their records. Or not. We played about the same level and same game against each.

    Simply put, take all the factors together, talent level, injuries, quarterback play, everything… these Browns are not over-performing.

    Peter is acting like anyone who can't see the amazing, coach-inspired progress is just an idiot. Well, there are obviously good points, a better feeling based on those two big wins, but I'm sorry, there is still a lot to dislike about Mangini as coach, both game-time and prep.

    Critical decisions in NY, Buffalo, Jax, and Cinci were close to provable mathematical errors made on the side of irrational conservatism and optimism about his shallow team's 4th quarter abilities.

    In 3 razor's edge games in Mia, Jax and Buf, he stuck with a stuggling, lapsed Delhome all the way through. Good call or not? I say no, not as far as winning games, and I don't think that's all that moronic a statement.

    Why the love-affair with a soon-to-retire, no future, John St. Clair? Why the grinding, predictable overuse of Hillis? I can come up with plausible answers for these questions, but I don't think they are reflective of obvious coaching genius.

    I still support Mangini at this point, I think he's a decent coach with some significant flaws– But I don't think Holmgren returning to the field would be any kind of disaster. Frankly, I think we have two good options that would offer their own strengths and weaknesses and their own kind of organizational continuity. For all the talk of a long process, 2011-2013 I now see as years that we can compete for this division. If (looming-but-unlikely lockout + owner with some risk tolerance) gives us the off-season I think we're capable of, we should be the one's pulling the K.C. next year. I really wouldn't mind either Fox or Homgren making game decisions on that team.

  • Other Dave

    I like darrel's take. EM is a good coach with some flaws, and it seems a little disingenious to take multiple teams with horrible record and explain how each is much better than that record.

    And enough already with posting records along with coach longevity. Everyone here surely agrees that continuity helps, but that "cursory analysis" is a pretty obvious blend of cause and effect.

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