Tony Grossi to Doug Dieken: “All I do all day is sit in meetings about how we’re going to sell papers.”

by Cleveland Frowns on December 21, 2010

A trusted and beloved Cleveland sportswriter recently got in touch with us to share a first-hand account of an overheard conversation between The Plain Dealer’s Tony Grossi and Doug Dieken (former Browns lineman now commentator for WKYC and Sports Time Ohio (STO)) that confirms easy assumptions about what’s behind The Plain Dealer’s shameless dive for the bottom with this season’s Cleveland Browns coverage. The substance of the conversation is covered in the title of this post, it isn’t shocking or even especially surprising, and it was probably partly a joke. But any way you look at it, dots that were easy enough to connect are now significantly more so with respect to a strange and troubling set of circumstances.

Anywhere but in a lunatic’s world, there’s a general presumption against decent men losing their jobs, a presumption that holds with more force with respect to men specifically hired to accomplish especially difficult tasks. Yet the coverage of the Browns by the Plain Dealer — the City’s flagship paper and (sadly) really the only show in town — systemically and unashamedly goes out of its way to manufacture intrigue about head coach Eric Mangini’s job security (and, secondarily, quarterback controversies) at the expense of truth, reason, and untold amounts of more productive, civil, and uplifting conversation. The dishonesty underpinning this coverage is typified by a consistent refusal to even try to account for a decade of unpredecented NFL organizational incompetence and the resulting talent deficit on a roster that was near-unanimously acknowledged as one of the thinnest in the the league last season (and is positively unanimously acknowledged today as plagued with glaring critical holes at at least three positions). From this void rises the absurdly reductionist view that the only way to measure anything about a football team, including its trajectory, is by way of counting the team’s wins and losses. The very concept of a rebuilding process is made a complete impossibility by this logic, and the job security of the head coach is always the primary target. (A few specific examples are discussed here, here, here, here, here, here, here, and here (really, this is just a few), and here’s a summary of some of the worst of last year’s treatment.)

Of course, when it comes to covering a football team, it’s harder to sell content about a rebuilding process than it is to sell content about anything else. For a number of reasons, a rebuilding phase is inherently less interesting than any other part of a football team’s lifecycle, and requires reporters to dig deeper and work more creatively to keep its readership engaged (or for the outlets to find talent that’s actually capable of doing this). Unless, of course, folks are okay with simply lying to accomplish the same.

Lying. Desperate times call for desperate measures, and there’s no question that the newspaper industry is in a state of unprecedented upheaval. Thanks to our source, The Plain Dealer’s own desperation is now especially easy to connect with Tony Grossi and the paper’s coverage of the Browns.

Our source was at a Cleveland sports media event this summer (after LeBron’s Decision), and overheard a conversation between Dieken and Grossi where, after some glad-handing, Dieken jokingly asked Grossi what was “new in Cleveland sports.”

“All I do all day is sit in meetings about how we’re going to sell papers,” Grossi replied, “so I wouldn’t know.”

Of course. And there can’t be a question that these meetings became more frequent after LeBron skipped town.

We might be sad for Grossi if his apparent personal animosity toward the Coach didn’t make this all so much fun for him, but we can all at least feel better knowing that the incredibly dissonant racket from the Plain Dealer on the Browns is little more than the last groans of a dying dinosaur.

———

As you’ll see in horrifying detail shortly below, what’s written above applies to other mainstream outlets like WKNR and the Akron Beacon Journal as well. For its part, the ABJ is probably in much worse shape than the Plain Dealer, and it’s safe to guess that ABJ columnist Marla Ridenour has been to a lot of meetings like the ones about which Grossi complained. There’s been no real reason to pay attention to Ridenour this season until yesterday, but you might remember her as the person who actually published the following sentence in what was shockingly only her second worst piece of work from last season (see here for the winner, but only if you’re feeling especially lively):

“If Mangini had hitched his wagon to [Jamal] Lewis’ star, instead of the other way around, players might have bought into Mangini’s system.”

Hoo.

Now, after lying in wait for nearly the whole of a season of marked improvement (or at least not writing anything so flamingly offensive as to catch our eye), two consecutive ticks in the loss column have given the snake clearance to strike from the tall grass. You can’t lay the treachery any thicker than this:

Mangini had just watched his offense continue to flounder no matter who starts at quarterback and his defense continue to fade.

The Browns (5-9) return home to finish the season against the division’s best, Baltimore and Pittsburgh, both 10-4. Even a split might not save Mangini now.

Unless Mangini pulls a rabbit out of his hat for the second consecutive January, it appears Browns President Mike Holmgren will thank Mangini for his services not long after the Jan. 2 finale and send him the way of Lewis, Wade Phillips and Brad Childress.

Mangini values players who are smart, tough, competitive, hard-working and selfless and love football. Those kinds of players should live for December, when the chilly air makes passing and kicking difficult, as it was Sunday. When it becomes a smash-mouth game on the offensive and defensive lines. Instead, all the smashing was being done by the Bengals, who pounded out 188 yards rushing, 150 by Cedric Benson. The Browns managed just 59 yards on the ground, all from Peyton Hillis. . . .

”From the first series, they had an excitement about them because they knew they could push them around,” Palmer said.

From that assessment, it appears Mangini’s tough, smart, hard-nosed players are lying down instead of rallying around him.

Last year the Browns rallied around Mangini — or around each other — and won the final four games. But with the exception of linebacker David Bowens, none sounded too distraught over this defeat.

”I thought early on we lacked a little bit of energy, we lacked a little bit of intensity,” said Browns rookie quarterback Colt McCoy, who returned after missing three games with a high left ankle sprain. ”And that stems from me, that stems from the older guys on this team and it stems from all of us coming together and playing with a lot of energy and a lot of focus. It’s hard to do late in the season. But if you want to be a successful football team and want to play great late in the stretch, that’s what you’ve got to do.”

McCoy included himself among the offenders, but wouldn’t fall on his sword for the rest, and perhaps rightly so at this point. Even the Browns’ best players, left tackle Joe Thomas and receiver/returner Joshua Cribbs, seem to be lacking energy this year, although Cribbs has an excuse after dislocating four toes on Nov. 14 against the New York Jets.

After that overtime loss to the Jets, the Browns were 3-6, but still looked to be peaking. That setback was preceded by stunning upsets of the Saints and Patriots. Defensive coordinator Rob Ryan was being touted as a head coaching candidate by his twin brother, Jets coach Rex Ryan. Offensive coordinator Brian Daboll, showing newfound imagination, seemed to be growing into his role. The Browns were the toast of the town.

Now Daboll has crawled back into his shell and Ryan’s bluster no longer seems to inspire. It appears the Browns peaked too soon.

Game-day adjustments seem the staff’s Achilles’ heel, which falls at the feet of Mangini. McCoy once again excelled in the two-minute drill, leading a five-play, 88-yard drive capped by a 46-yard TD toss to Brian Robiskie with 2:13 left against the Bengals. Yet when the offense lacked rhythm after its opening possession for the second consecutive week, it was left to stagnate. If McCoy can run the hurry-up in the fourth quarter, why not the second?

”The whole team has to be involved and motivated,” Hillis said. ”We have to get to that point. We’re so off and on through the whole game.”

”I told the guys after the game, ‘Just keep fighting,’ ” McCoy said. ”If we get the onside kick, you never know what happens. It shows the character of our football team. We never quit. We kept fighting to the very end. That shows what kind of class these guys have in this locker room.”

No one who ventures into their inner sanctum will question their class. But they did not fight for the entire game against a Bengals team that was perhaps another first-half touchdown away from throwing in the towel. Perhaps because the Browns no longer believe in the coaches they’re fighting for.

What can you say? It’s like the possibility that a Bengals team that was expected to contend for the division title really is bigger, stronger, and faster than the Browns never crossed Ridenour’s mind. The idea that a Bengals run game led by what was expected to be one of the league’s best offensive lines might actually show up for one last win and a little pride against a thin Browns front seven made much thinner by the loss of two of its very best players is a complete nonfactor to Ridenour’s inflammatory conclusion. It’s impossible to Ridenour that in a football game one team could beat the other one up. Not even worth bringing up.

Two team leaders say exactly what they’re supposed to say (“um, crap, that sucked, we need to try harder”), and a reporter dives out of her way to ignore the most obvious inference. Anyone who can read a newspaper can understand from real life experience that getting physically beaten up can’t really fail to lead to diminished “energy” and “intensity.” But no matter, because Ridenour is literally dying for you to think that a football team deliberately quit on its coach.

It’s hard to feel bad for Ridenour, Grossi, or any of them when it’s so easy to picture an environment where, after a football team gets beaten up because the other side is bigger, stronger and faster, the reporters’ primary focus is on something, anything, other than a quote to take out of context to attach to an improvable suggestion that the team isn’t playing for the coach. Or one where a reporter might call a colleague out for shamelessly baiting a backup quarterback into a line to twist a non-story that a backup wants to start into a statement that the quarterback has no respect for his coach. How can the kind of treachery that prevails in Cleveland, how can the day-to-day influence of these people not have an impact on the success of a football team, even if only at the margins?

Imagine if there were reporters covering the Browns team who weren’t forced to go to meetings about selling papers. Imagine reporters who actually liked their jobs, and viewed their subjects as humans instead of a means to an end? (Again, what Grossi did to Seneca Wallace here exemplifies what’s gone wrong.)

There’s no way to avoid connecting the pathetic state of this franchise over the last decade with the behavior of the folks whose job it is to shine a light on it.

David Bowens just tweeted about how “an empty Chrismas wrapping paper tube is still a light saber, no matter how old you are.” Seems like a decent guy. Accessible. Probably has a lot of useful things to say about light sabers, Christmas, family, and who knows what else? Doesn’t it all get back to football, anyway? Shouldn’t it?

“Hey, look, Jon Gruden’s kid just went on the radio!”

Hey, look, we’re much less certain about Eric Mangini’s abilities as an NFL head coach than we are about there being a right and wrong way to do business and to treat people. Part of this involves ideas about what it means for an organization to hire a man, as qualified as anyone, to complete a Herculean task, then fire him just as he’s getting started, long before anyone could have finished the job, and as he was making obvious measurable progress in doing it. There’s also something about the way the local press has so dishonestly ganged up on this guy that makes him easier to get behind. That something that should be dying thinks it can save itself by killing him seems to say a lot about what should be allowed to live here, if there really has to be a choice.

———-

*Some of our most dense commenters have come out of the woodwork recently to gloat about the recent Browns losses, suggesting that we’ve “painted ourselves into a corner,” or “backed the wrong horse” by supporting Mangini in his first two years in Cleveland. It’s especially dense, and sad, because no matter what Holmgren decides (or has decided) to do, there will still be a right and wrong ways to do business and to treat people, and we’ll continue write consistently about what those ways might be here. All the more fun because no matter what Holmgren does, there will be an Eric Mangini-coached football team somewhere soon enough for us to keep our eye on.

  • Art Brosef

    This would be hard to believe, if you expected anything else from a pig other than a grunt.

    Its amazing how easy this is to understand and how much sense this all makes, if you only take the time to logically absorb it all, and then connect a few close dots. I for one, am glad someone around here is assisting people in doing so. Keep it up Frowns.

  • Believelander

    But tyrannosaurus is alive somewhere on Jurassic Park!

  • Believelander

    I also say I must regret that your source did not have a tape recorder of that brief exchange between Grossi and Dieken; it'd be great to be able to post it anywhere, everywhere, and hear Tony Grossi say he doesn't know what's new in Cleveland sports. And that he's just trying to sell newspapers.

    Honestly, if the Browns fire Coach, I might be tempted to quit watching them altogether, and write a letter explaining why.

  • ZARATHUSTRA

    "After that overtime loss to the Jets, the Browns were 3-6, but still looked to be peaking. That setback was preceded by stunning upsets of the Saints and Patriots. Defensive coordinator Rob Ryan was being touted as a head coaching candidate by his twin brother, Jets coach Rex Ryan. Offensive coordinator Brian Daboll, showing newfound imagination, seemed to be growing into his role. The Browns were the toast of the town."
    Could it be that one of those dense commentators was correct that he has been plagarized by all of northeast Ohio's 'best' journalists? It would explain so much that. Lord only knows he has posted on how many sites that the browns peaked with the Jet game (nevermind that they won 2 of 3 following that game.) We'll know for sure if Ridenour's next column ends with a grand farewell to her readers, lamenting the ignorance of their youth for not having grown up watching Paul Brown or spending 20 years in California–and then follows it up three successive columns posted to Ohio.com within 20 minutes.

  • Alexander

    I follow the Browns religiously and I do not live in the Cleveland area. I live in a suburb north of Chicago so my only access to everything Browns is through the internet. I just want to say thank you to sites like yours the former clevelandreboot.com and theobr,com.

    While I pride myself on being a knowledgeable, thoughtful, and independent thinking Browns fans, it is tough to not be affected by the negative rhetoric put out by The Plain Dealer. Sites like this one bring much needed rational and reasoned discussion concerning the state of the Browns and puts me back to the same way of thinking.

    As far as Mangini and our rebuilding goes, I think people take a look around the NFL and can see evidence of seemingly "instant" turn-arounds with new coaches. Take Tony Sparano (Dolphins), John Harbrough (Ravens), and Mike Smith (Falcons) from the 2008 season as example. People forget that each coach is coming into a very specific situation under very specific circumstances (meaning GM, owner, roster, qb, etc.) If you evaluate Mangini in his very own specific situation and circumstance the past two years it is clear he at the very least has built a strong foundation (with some help) and has the team undeniably headed in the right direction (with some help).

    Year One: break down old version of Browns, bring in your own philosophy and people. Check

    Year Two: build upon your established philosophy, continue to build roster, and focus solely on coaching with proper front office in place. Show progress in form of more competitive team (point differential here is most glaring example). Check

    The Browns need to continue to travel down this road for another year simply because it is worth the "gamble" to keep Mangini. Think about what could be gained vs. what could be lost.

    If we keep Mangini, at the very worst the Browns stay the same or regress slightly and he's gone no later than the end of next season- one season is lost.

    At the very best he continues on this clear path of progress, we contend for the playoffs, and establish much needed consistency to be a contender for years to come as his labors come to fruition.

    A little to lose but a lot to gain by giving Mangini one more year at this to continue his obvious progress.

  • Chuck

    keep fighting the good fight frowns.

  • Brian Sipe
  • Art Brosef

    "A little to lose but a lot to gain by giving Mangini one more year at this to continue his obvious progress."

    As simply and appropriately as explained as possible.

    Ive said this before. I think next year, wins and losses are a fair way to judge. It will be another year of free agency, another draft, another offseason of preperation, and another year of growth by the coaching staff and players.

    If they succeed (in terms of wins and losses) great, its a win win. If not, the aforementioned growth still remains and Holmgren can do as he pleases, with much more substantiated reasoning.

  • eldaveablo

    Excellent article, and really could not agree more.

    I live in Denver, and like Alexander my coverage is pretty much limited to the internet message boards and my local Browns Backers. My perspective is obviously skewed because of that, but this site and a good Terry Pluto article (like today) get me thru with some rational optimism, so thank you.

    The other week I was watching the game with the Mile High Browns Backers, and I talked to a guy who randomly ran into post-Browns Butch Davis (I swear this is going somewhere).

    They talked for a minute even though Butch was somewhat nervous to talk to a Browns fan. Anyway, the topic of best thing about being Browns Coach/Worst thing about being Browns Coach came up.

    Best thing was obviously the fans (truth? good PR? obvious nonetheless).

    Worst thing? The Plain Dealer, and apparently Butch was quite adamant about this.

    Considering the media scrutiny he must have witnessed during his days with the Cowboys in their partying prime, I think that says a lot – if true.

    Keep fighting the good fight. It's a shame good writing/reporting doesn't drive sales, only sensational topics. I don't know if that's an insult to the papers or the people.

  • jimkanicki

    I fully understand from where the grievances with the Cleveland media BUSINESS spring. It’s right to be vigilant.

    But sometimes they get it right. MarlaR and Carl think the Jets game was the turning point in the season. I agree.

    For me, the eye test was enough. (to me)They’ve looked like a different team since the Jets game and specifically since that 10 minute drive the Jets laid on us coming out of halftime. But I wanted to see if there was data to support this. Check out this metric.

    Average yardage delta per game
    -14.5 yds thru 1st half of Jets game* (opp pct = .661)**
    -50.6 yds from 2nd half of Jets game (opp pct = .405)***

    *1st half of Jets game Browns outgained Jets 206 yds to 190; 2nd half/OT, it was 110 vs 253 for Jets.
    **Includes a -184 yd differential in Browns rout of Saints.
    ***The only game where Browns outgained opp was vs Carolina.

    A change of 35 yds/game from first half to second half doesn’t seem significant until you factor in that 7 of the first 8 teams we played are playoff contenders; 3 of last 6 will be drafting in the top 10 next year.

    So let’s give Marla and Carl credit where it’s due.

    As to why things have changed, that’s a separate and larger question.

  • Pittsburgh is for Man Lovers

    I am proud to be a dense commenter. I hope these next two games are a reflection of what's taking place, not only to stick it to the inherent evil these two monstrosities represent, but also to sweep the last leg this ludicrousness has to stand on.

  • Cleveland Frowns

    Kanicki: You are going out of your way to avoid facts and its depressing.

    "Marla and Carl think the Jets game was the turning point in the season. I agree. … For me, the eye test was enough. (to me). They’ve looked like a different team since the Jets game So let’s give Marla and Carl credit where it’s due."

    Good god.

    Why is this intriguing or even difficult? A thin front seven (again, unanimously acknowledged as thin by, you know, everyone, coming into this season) that had already lost one of its best linemen in Robaire Smith loses Scott Fujita, it's best linebacker, a guy who everyone was hailing as the defenses leader and captain.

    Why is this hard?

    Eric Wright didn't play against Jax or Car, either, and it was a problem.

    Wright and Fujita just went on the IR this week, but I'm sure we won't hear a thing about it as folks make ludicrous projections regarding what the Browns have to do in these last two games for the coach to keep his job. Because, you know, the Browns have such a deep roster that it shouldn't matter.

    Good god.

  • Cleveland Frowns

    Thanks to everyone else.

  • Cleveland Frowns

    Zara: This is a really good point:

    "Could it be that one of those dense commentators was correct that he has been plagarized by all of northeast Ohio's 'best' journalists? It would explain so much. Lord only knows he has posted on how many sites that the browns peaked with the Jet game (nevermind that they won 2 of 3 following that game.) We'll know for sure if Ridenour's next column ends with a grand farewell to her readers, lamenting the ignorance of their youth for not having grown up watching Paul Brown or spending 20 years in California–and then follows it up three successive columns posted to Ohio.com within 20 minutes."

    Carl had to have written Marla's column.

  • Brian Sipe

    Browns need to win one of the last two…. there is no one on earth who can cinvince me that with 5 switches at QB and a super hard schedule we were supposed to win more than 6 this year. Vegas agrees with me as well.

    I don't think Mangini keeps his job even if we win both, I truly 100% feel Holmgren is taking over this team next year regardless of what Eric does and he decided that a long long time ago.

    However, an extra win makes me feel better about Eric and what he got done and puts more pressure on Holmgren.

  • stkoran

    Don't forget who else got injured during the second quarter of the Jets game: Joshua Cribbs. He was the one guy on offense who actually allowed Daboll to be creative by moving him around at WR, QB and even RB or just going in motion, etc. I'm sure that opposing defenses were always very aware of what Josh Cribbs was doing while he was on the field. Since dislocating his toes, Cribbs has either had to sit out or has otherwise been rather ineffective, likely a result of the injury. When an offense already devoid of playmakers loses its biggest threat, it is going to struggle.

  • jimkanicki

    i think/hope i'm being misunderstood.

    i think/hope youre challenging me on 'why' things changed which i explicitly said is a separate question and on which i've consistently said that the losses of fujita, cribbs, and yates (of all people), all in the jets game, seemed to be more devastating than we'd have expected. (not sure i agree that eric wright's loss had a great negative effect.)

    but with respect to 'when' a turning point occurred, i took care to present only facts, certainly not to avoid them. further, it seems like measuring the talent on each team, game by game, is the more subjective, fact avoid-ant, pursuit.

    thesis: browns started playing worse somewhere in the jets game.
    fact: in the two games prior to jets, browns beat last years SB champ and this year's favorite by double digits.
    fact: browns have been outgained by inferior competition subsequent to jets;
    fact: browns made history by losing game where +5 on turnovers;
    fact: browns benefitted from FG hitting goalpost to beat league's worst team;
    fact: browns won game via fluke deflection in final minute;
    fact: in the last two losses vs 2win teams browns were outgained by 136 and 119 yds respectively.
    conclusion: browns are playing worse since the jets game.

    christ frowns, i'm building your case for you. ie, if you can demonstrate with empirical data the browns season changed midway in the jets game and then link critical personnel losses to that point in time, you have a bulletproof argument that events outside mangini's control have caused this decline.

    we do agree that this is no longer intriguing.

    can i get a sanity check from the forum? i'm not trying to be a dick but when you get called out, you have to respond. it's not fun to be on an island here.

  • Cleveland Frowns

    Jim, I think we agree on just about everything you said in your last comment, but you seemed to be supporting the conclusions that Ridenour draws from there, which is what I took issue with. Now I understand better what it is that you're trying to say.

  • Cleveland Frowns

    Someone called "darrel" keeps trying to leave this comment and for some reason when I approve it it's not showing up here. Here it is:

    While Peter's analysis is pretty good, I'm afraid wishful thinking and the execrable Grossi has driven it a bit beyond simply "reasonable." The Bengals 3-11 (!!) Bills 4-10 (!), and Jaguars 1-11 (!!!) may all be better than their records. Or not. We played about the same level and same game against each. Simply put, take all the factors together, talent level, injuries, quarterback play, everything… these Browns are not over-performing. Peter is acting like anyone who can't see the amazing, coach-inspired progress is just an idiot. Well, there are obviously good points, a better feeling based on those two big wins, but I'm sorry, there is still a lot to dislike about Mangini as coach, both game-time and prep. Critical decisions in NY, Buffalo, Jax, and Cinci were close to provable mathematical errors made on the side of irrational conservatism and optimism about his shallow team's 4th quarter abilities. In 3 razor's edge games in Mia, Jax and Buf, he stuck with a stuggling , lapsed Delhome all the way through. Good call or not? I say no, not as far as winning games, and I don't think that's all that moronic a statement. Why the love-affair with a soon-to-retire, no future, John St. Clair? Why the grinding, predictable overuse of Hillis? I can come up with plausible answers for these questions, but I don't think they are reflective of obvious coaching genius. I still support Mangini at this point, I think he's a decent coach with some significant flaws– But I don't think Holmgren returning to the field would be any kind of disaster. Frankly, I think we have two good options that would offer their own strengths and weaknesses and their own kind of organizational continuity. For all the talk of a long process, 2011-2013 I now see as years that we can compete for this division. If (looming-but-unlikely lockout + owner with some risk tolerance) gives us the off-season I think we're capable of, we should be the one's pulling the K.C. next year. I really wouldn't mind either Fox or Homgren making game decisions on that team.

  • Cleveland Frowns

    Someone called "darrel" keeps trying to leave this comment and for some reason when I approve it it's not showing up here. Here it is, in two pieces (darrel, the comment is too long, you have to break it up in two for it to show up):

    While Peter's analysis is pretty good, I'm afraid wishful thinking and the execrable Grossi has driven it a bit beyond simply "reasonable." The Bengals 3-11 (!!) Bills 4-10 (!), and Jaguars 1-11 (!!!) may all be better than their records. Or not. We played about the same level and same game against each. Simply put, take all the factors together, talent level, injuries, quarterback play, everything… these Browns are not over-performing. Peter is acting like anyone who can't see the amazing, coach-inspired progress is just an idiot. Well, there are obviously good points, a better feeling based on those two big wins, but I'm sorry, there is still a lot to dislike about Mangini as coach, both game-time and prep. Critical decisions in NY, Buffalo, Jax, and Cinci were close to provable mathematical errors made on the side of irrational conservatism and optimism about his shallow team's 4th quarter abilities. In 3 razor's edge games in Mia, Jax and Buf, he stuck with a stuggling , lapsed Delhome all the way through. Good call or not? I say no, not as far as winning games, and I don't think that's all that moronic a statement. Why the love-affair with a soon-to-retire, no future, John St. Clair? Why the grinding, predictable overuse of Hillis? I can come up with plausible answers for these questions, but I don't think they are reflective of obvious coaching genius. I still support Mangini at this point, I think he's a decent coach with some significant flaws– But I don't think Holmgren returning to the field would be any kind of disaster. Frankly, I think we have two good options that would offer their own strengths and weaknesses and their own kind of organizational continuity. For all the talk of a long process, 2011-2013 I now see as years that we can compete for this division. If (looming-but-unlikely lockout + owner with some risk tolerance) gives us the off-season I think we're capable of, we should be the one's pulling the K.C. next year. I really wouldn't mind either Fox or Homgren making game decisions on that team.

  • Chris

    You know, I thought I through a line in one of my posts somewhere mentioning that I don't think even Grossi believes what he's writing most of the time, but I can't find it anywhere.

    I'm wondering if there is any chance Grossi or Ridenour get taken to task by anyone outside of bloggers (like their bosses maybe?) for all the nonsensical trash they are heaping on this entire (non)situation.

    Another thing worth mentioning here is that Holmgren has taken his share of lumps during his coaching career, and this certainly makes me believe that he will be more objective at this point than any print whores out there.

    Everyone knows that this is a wins / losses league, but at this point when you're trying to get an organization on it's feet, this just isn't the case.

    This post was well worth the wait. Excellent work, Frowns.

  • Cleveland Frowns

    Nevermind. It all fit in one.

    Here: "Peter is acting like anyone who can't see the amazing, coach-inspired progress is just an idiot."

    No. I'm acting like anyone who thinks it's a good idea to fire a guy who's done what Mangini has done with this group in his second year is wrong, and when they go out of their way to avoid obvious counterpoints, they're either an idiot or a liar.

    "I don't see obvious coaching genius so it would be fine with me if we fired the guy" is questionable, too.

    Second-guessing individual 50/50 decisions doesn't cut it. It's a football game. Some decisions work out, some don't. The players still have to execute, and the guy with one of the worst collections of players in the league gets the benefit of the doubt. Don't you think that being hamstrung by way of talent has an impact on decisionmaking? Bet it's a lot easier to make these decisions when you have some players to work with. It must have some kind of calming affect on the mind.

    Also, did you really watch Seneca when he played? If you did, I'm not sure how you didn't see his alarming inability to see the field. See here if you missed it:

    http://www.clevelandfrowns.com/2010/09/not-baltimore-bloodbath-we-were-bracing.html

  • Malcolm Mathers

    @Darrel
    As far as starting Delhomme over Seneca there were reports that he was less recoverd from his injury than Delhomme. For instance, this past Sunday he was the backup behind Colt and Jake was the emergency QB, presumably because he was doing better.

    Frownie,
    So in your opinion is Holmgren a "mouth foaming lunatic" if he fires Mangini? Also, have you been impressed with the way Colt has played and are you ok with going into 2011 with him as your starter. Has he shown more than "poise"?

  • Malcolm Mathers

    Frownie, you don`t have to post this just wondering if anything is on it`s way today and darrells missing comments seem to be attached to Mondays post

  • Terry O.

    jimkanicki said…

    "i think/hope i'm being misunderstood."

    Your excellent analysis of the numbers confirms what my eyes have seen.

    The personnel losses you point to, along with McCoy's injury, are the obvious reasons why.

    The roster was (is) paper thin and obviously cannot withstand injuries of this magnitude (best QB, best big play guy, best LB, starting CB & DL).

    However I have a sense something beyond injuries is affecting this team. They got flat out hit by the Bengals & Buffalo. Both of those teams also had multiple key injuries.

    Football is a game ultimately dictated by who hits the hardest which, in turn, is often a function of intensity and desire & we got out hit.

    I'm with McCoy and Hillis on this issue. Something's happened to the team's intensity & desire. Question is: Why?

  • Art Brosef

    Terry O: Yes those teams suffered injuries as well, but they were starting from a different baseline in terms of talent level. The point remains the same

  • Cleveland Frowns

    Terry: "However I have a sense something beyond injuries is affecting this team. They got flat out hit by the Bengals & Buffalo. Both of those teams also had multiple key injuries. … I'm with McCoy and Hillis on this issue. Something's happened to the team's intensity & desire. Question is: Why?"

    ???? Why isn't it that the team that's bigger/stronger/faster is the team that can hit harder, all else equal?

  • Cleveland Frowns

    Mathers: A post is on its way. To answer your questions:

    "So in your opinion is Holmgren a "mouth foaming lunatic" if he fires Mangini?"

    More a bad manager and nepotist with an outsized ego. The real lunatics are the folks who are egging him on.

    "Also, have you been impressed with the way Colt has played and are you ok with going into 2011 with him as your starter. Has he shown more than "poise"?"

    Yes, and yes.

  • Believelander

    See, just b-cuz Frownie put the handbrake on with McCoy after the Poise Show against the Steelers, doesn't change the fact that he -did- talk pre-draft about McCoy reeking of football. Honestly, Frownie probably peed on his foot when we stole him in round 3. Honestly, he's shown remarkable level-headedness about the whole thing, considering he flew to Texas pre-draft to smell the guy.

    Look up dedication in the dictionary and it reads: Peter Pattakos.

  • Terry O.

    Cleveland Frowns said…

    "???? Why isn't it that the team that's bigger/stronger/faster is the team that can hit harder, all else equal?"

    I don't think the Bills or Bengals front 7's are "bigger/stronger/faster".

  • ckNikka

    God this was such a great Post. I get sooooo tired of all the haters on the PD pages… The only writer who I can read is Terry P…. I really feel they have come a long way… the corporate culture has changed… some of the discontent is generational in the sense of wanting the super bowl now… look at chuck knolls first 3 years… or Cowhers… I feel optimistic with the future for the first time in years… I hope they play well…get lucky and maybe win at least one of the last two games… keep up the good work!

  • Sam Sneeda

    Have to post these here today…

    cardinals +7 over cowboys
    redskins +7 over jaguars
    san diego st -3.5 over navy
    florida intl +1.5 over toledo***

    I think FIU is a little under the radar…this team is very athletic and battle tested…3 of their first 4 games were on the road to 3 teams playing in bowl games (Maryland, Texas A&M, and Pitt)…this game on Sunday is their 8th road game of the season! The MAC conference isn't very good (top to bottom) which masks how average Toledo really is…Toledo was not even close to being competitive in their 3 toughest non-conference games (losing by a combined score of 163-46…nice defense Rockets!). Honestly, I don't know much about either team here…but from what I read, the Sun Belt conference is much more competitive and this FIU team is on the rise! Good luck to all…Merry Christmas!

  • Biki

    do i agree with the strategy to sell papers is negativity and creating controversy, no. but is it such a newsflash that most sports journalists and sports radio stations in the country use these tactics to increase ratings or sell papers? good analysis Frowns, but not really sure what is so wrong with saying what Grossi allegedly said to Dieken. It is what it is, it's just business. Thank god for blogs like yours to give us some good choices for Browns content and who doesn't pick a certain angle to create controversy and increase page views.

  • Believelander

    the point is, Biki, that there are ways to sell papers without causing negativity to course through the entire media surrounding a team, which, believe it or not, influences fans' opinions, which, believe it or not, influences executives' opinions. But instead of that, certain individuals flame while others like Pluto and even Cabot write more well-reasoned articles (at least some of the time).

    note that now, both Pluto and Cabot have gone on the record, folks, and stated that they think the Browns -should- keep Eric Mangini. Not will or won't. -Should-.

    When people tell Grossi he's a Mangini hater (he is) he denies it by stating he's never stated Mangini should be canned in print. Which is true, but that's just cowardice; 2/3 of his Browns writing is about Mangini's job security.

    And it's not him saying that he sits in meetings about selling papers that's the issue. Him saying 'I don't know' [what's going on in Browns news] is the issue.

    He's supposed to be the beat writer, but he's got all the beat of a 4 year old on dad's drum set.

    It's interesting to see that Mary Kay Cabot has more balls to come out and give her actual stance than Grossi who hides behind 'I never said that'. Not surprising, just interesting.

  • Believelander

    See if Grossi wanted Mangini fired, said so, and wrote articles as solid as Kanicki or Frowns about it with facts and numbers and knowledge and reasoning, we would just be people on opposite sides of an issue.

    But it doesn't go down like that.

  • darrel

    >>>"I don't see obvious coaching genius so it would be fine with me if we fired the guy" is questionable, too.<<<

    Yeah, I'm not really down with just chopping M. down for no good reason. But John Fox waiting in the wings isn't really NO good reason. Maybe not good enough, maybe so. And while Mangini started with total control, he really is just the coach now. Changing the coach isn't necessarily the multi-year organizational setback that some assume it must be. Putting in someone more fully compatible with H&H, and possibly more compatible with the talent we do have now, isn't as simple foolishness as you seem to say.

    >>Second-guessing individual 50/50 decisions doesn't cut it. It's a football game. Some decisions work out, some don't. The players still have to execute, and the guy with one of the worst collections of players in the league gets the benefit of the doubt. Don't you think that being hamstrung by way of talent has an impact on decisionmaking?<<

    It should impact it. My concern is actually that he has coached as if he had MORE talent than he has. You're down 9 with on quarter to go, and you are presented with a 1yd=+4pts. Maybe you kick the field-goal and make it one score– if you are convinced your defense can keep it one score AND that you will be able to get 7 from a 60+ yard drive easier than a one play one yard shot. To me that's a decision you make with a team you believe to be relatively stronger. The Jets extra point decision and the Bills 4th and 1 were similar. Less defensible the weaker you think we are.

    I really believe Mangini has shown some tendencies towards excessive conservatism (by which I mean reaching past the most rational, mathematically correct option) that are hard to defend logically OR emotionally, and which will drive me nuts when we actually are good.

    Mangini is solid. Overall, I like him. I just don't feel it's such a cut and dried case that he's the only good option for the Browns right now.

    Also, I don't think you mean it, butthe last sentence of your blog entry makes it sound like you're more loyal to Mangini than the Browns. Don't let Grossi do that to you.

  • Tom

    Great article and great comments posted.

    I've read some of the PD articles and came away thinking "am I the only one that see's improvement from this team and sees them moving in the right direction. Am I the only one that sees a lack of talent and being impacted by injuries". However, most of the comments on the PD articles and the poll results reflect what I am reading here.

    Speaking of the lack of talent, care to compare the talent on the Browns to the other teams in the division? I haven't gone through this exercise yet, but have a suspicion the other teams in the division come out ahead, even Cincinnati. When comparing, position by position against the other team, give the Browns a +1 if they have the better player at that position, a 0 if its a wash, and a -1 of the other team has the better player. I suspect against any team in our division, the result is a negative number, indicating we have less talent/thinner.

  • Baileybart

    This is the best post that i have ever seen.

    http://www.sellhousefastcompany.co.uk/

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