Pro Bowler Alex Mack and “[One] of the worst trades in Browns History … There is no disputing that.”

by Cleveland Frowns on January 25, 2011

Alex Mack’s a Pro Bowler. A second alternate (Jeff Saturday is stepping in for Super Bowl bound Maurkice Pouncey, Mack’s taking the injured Nick Mangold’s spot), but still.

Mack is a Pro Bowl center in his second year in the league, and it’s just the kind of news that would hit just one day after Tony Grossi trashed the trade that brought the young Pro Bowler to Cleveland as, “undisputedly,” “one of the worst trades in Browns history.” Here’s Grossi again, writing in the Plain Dealer last Sunday:

On the first day of the 2009 draft, Mangini gave the Jets [the fifth overall pick to select] their franchise quarterback, Mark Sanchez, for the bargain basement price of three non-elite players — defensive end Kenyon Coleman, safety Abram Elam and quarterback Brett Ratliff — and the Jets’ first- and second-round picks. To not demand the Jets’ first-round pick in 2010 was irresponsible. That should have been the deal-breaker.

Mangini then traded two more times in the first round and collected a pair of sixth-round picks. The net result was center Alex Mack, linebacker David Veikune, cornerback Coye Francies and running back James Davis. . . .

Whatever your feelings about Mangini as a coach and a person, th[is] trades qualif[ies] as [one] of the worst in Browns history. There is no disputing that.

Mack, now a second year Pro Bowl center, a solid starting safety in Elam, a serviceable starting defensive end in Coleman and and a few extra draft picks in exchange for a “franchise” quarterback whose team has to go out of its way to game plan around. It didn’t seem so bad then, and it seems less bad today.

Especially because of what Grossi ignores here and what a lot of folks seem to forget, which is that much of the pre-draft talk in Brownstown in ’09 was about the drop-off in talent at the top of the draft, how unfortunate it would be to have to pay #5 money to a guy who wasn’t much different from #15, and how difficult it was going to be to trade down. Sanchez was far from a sure thing going in, the consensus having been that there wasn’t much of a difference after Matthew Stafford, Jason Smith, and Aaron Curry went off the board. A quick look back at the top twenty-one picks in 2009 (ten seconds, at most) confirms:

1 Lions - Matthew Stafford QB
2 Rams - Jason Smith OT
3 Chiefs - Tyson Jackson DE
4 Seahawks - Aaron Curry OLB
5 Jets – Mark Sanchez QB
6 Bengals - Andre Smith OT
7 Raiders - Darrius Heyward-Bey WR
8 Jaguars - Eugene Monroe OT
9 Packers - B.J. Raji DT
10 49ers - Michael Crabtree WR
11 Bills – Aaron Maybin DE
12 Broncos - Knowshon Moreno RB
13 Redskins - Brian Orakpo DE
14 Saints - Malcolm Jenkins CB
15 Texans - Brian Cushing OLB
16 Chargers - Larry English DE
17 Buccaneers – Josh Freeman QB
18 Broncos - Robert Ayers LB
19 Eagles - Jeremy Maclin WR
20 Lions - Brandon Pettigrew TE
21 Browns -  Alex Mack C

Who else was going to trade up in that muck? Yet the Browns still managed to get one of the three Pro Bowlers to have emerged from this group so far, all the way down at #21, for half the price that anyone would have cost them at #5.

So is Grossi’s argument that anyone would be calling Sanchez a franchise quarterback if he’d been drafted in Cleveland when he can’t yet manage a 76 rating in New York behind the best offensive line in football throwing to a top-five (at worst) receiving corps?

Couldn’t be. So the lesson, as always, is that The Pain Dealer hates us, Tony Grossi’s alarming four-hour-plus-plus murder swell for Mangini is still raging, and a town that stands for this guy as its number one NFL beat writer has probably gotten exactly what it’s deserved.

———-

Here’s a good read from Bills fan Nick Bakay at NFL.com that came up in looking for sources for yesterday’s post:

It says here you simply can’t put a relocationist owner in the Hall. It’s blasphemous. The game’s popularity was built on the money fans pay to watch the game, and in a Rust Belt town like Cleveland, none of those season tickets came easily.

If you really want to reward a deserving soul, I am here to tell you that a big, bronze bust belongs in the Hall for the unnamed hero who first thought it might be a good idea to make the Green Bay Packers a publicly-owned company. There’s your hero of the people, my friends! For all the thrills great players provide us, no individual ever gave more back to the fans of the National Football League than the one guy who put a team in their control.

If you are lucky enough to be born a Packers fan, you not only get to enjoy what is arguably the league’s most fabled and historically rich franchise, you also get to go to bed every night knowing that no matter how the economics of the game change, you will never wake up the next morning to the horrific reality of “The Los Angeles Packers.”

And a promising new menu offering at Akron’s Canal Park, the “Nice 2 Meat U” burger.

Which is all for now. Might be back with more later this afternoon but it’s hard to say. Hope everyone has a decent Tuesday either way.

  • Believelander

    again, it’s only the stupid Clevelanders who stand for Tony Grossi. Leave my karma out of this, I haven’t patronized those bums in 26 years of being alive.

  • TA

    In looking back at that draft, the consensus of whom most draft experts thought the Browns would select from inlcuded Raji, Crabtree and Orakpo. I would consider both Orakpo and Raji a blossoming stars and Crabtree, while a disappointment so far, as a decent #2 WR starter. I would argue that based on current need both Raji and Orakpo would’ve been better selections by staying at 5. Orakpo has 19 sacks in his first two seasons and has made the Pro Bowl both years. Also, I find it humorous that you decided to not include the rest of that 1st round in your analysis and cut it off at Mack. Why not also include the fact that guys like Harvin, Clay Matthews, Michael Oher and Hakeem Nicks were selected in the 10 picks following the Mack selection? Look nobody is going to argue that Mack is a nice player and should be the Browns starting center for the next 10 years but lets be honest here, there were plenty of other impact players that the Browns passed up while not receiving good value in return.

    • Believelander

      we could have paid #5 money for any of those non sure things, but instead Mangini stepped down and ensured that Hank Fraley wouldn’t be the Browns’ starting center at 40, paid a lot less money, and tried to prospect out other players. Considering we got 3 starters from said trade, I’m failing to see how we didn’t get ‘good value’. Nothing like 20/20 hindsight criticism.

      • Biki

        Abe Elam and Kenyon Coleman may be starters for the Browns, but i doubt they would start for most NFL teams. and they are most likely done with the Browns as they are both FA’s. so 2 years after the trade, we only have Alex Mack to show for having the 5th pick in the draft.

        Again, glad things are working out with Mack, but we def got hosed on the trade in terms of long-term impact for the Browns, which typically is addressed through the draft.

        • http://twitter.com/cpmack Chris M

          Yeah, Elam is washed up and old at 29 years old. He’s definitely gone. (??)

          The entire point is that 1 guy at #5 isn’t going to fill more than 1 hole on the team. The fact that it was turned into 3 starters (1 of them being a pro-bowl center) helped the team immediately.

          If you think that the quarterback injury situation was bad last year, imagine how bad it could have been if Hank Fraley were still playing at center.

          • Biki

            helped the team immediately?? helped them do what? lose 22 games in 2 years instead of 24???

          • http://twitter.com/cpmack Chris M

            If they started immediately, it’s fairly obvious that they were an upgrade and “helped the team immediately”. How would you propose going about repairing the entirely deficient roster of the Browns with 7 draft picks? And that’s also making an idiotic gamble that all 7 picks will even make the team.

          • Biki

            There were other Centers who went after Mack that are playing in the league. Are they a third alternative to the Pro Bowl, no, but could our offense be any worse without Mack??

          • Anonymous

            This is idiocy. The point is that nobody wanted to trade up in that draft. Talking about not getting “good value” when they were able to trade down to get a Pro Bowler and more for half the price they’d have paid an equivalent player at #5 is absurd.

          • Rich

            Thank you, Peter. Just what I was about to say. The points are–in Grossi’s words–indisputable. First, Sanchez is not a “franchise QB” and you’d have never heard of him if he weren’t drafted by a NY team–apart from the market and a city that ESPN coddles to in order to keep the market from turning them off, the NY attitude is that “we alway pants everyone when we trade with them.” (Actually the fans in Radio City were BOOING when they saw what the Jets gave up.) Second, the notion that there is some “etched-in-marble” rule that you have to get two ##1′s for a top five pick is nonsense. I’ll go further. All this talk about how stupid it was to take Robiskie and Massaquoi ignores a critical point. First of all, Robiskie was not a “reach” (as Pluto immediately declared). He had wowed people in the combines with his 40 times, he was considered the most “finished” receiver in the draft and was universally projected to go late 1 or early 2. Massaquoi was seen as a solid second round pick. The fact that people miss is that NEITHER of them was drafted to be the go-to-#1-receiver. We already HAD that guy on the other side. Robiskie was supposed to be a faster version of Jurevicius in the slot. Massaquoi was a pretty nice receiver until we got rid of Edwards. Yeah, yeah–baggage, doesn’t pay for water, etc.–but he drew double coverage down the field. When he left, there was no “speed guy” that scared anyone.

          • http://twitter.com/cpmack Chris M

            By the way, since you were making blind assumptions about other centers who came out after Mack:

            1) Eric Wood, Buffalo (#28 overall) Starting Right Guard, never played at Center.
            2) Max Unger, Seattle (#49 overall) Not even on Seattle’s depth chart.
            3) Antoine Caldwell, Houston (#77 overall) Starting Right Guard.
            4) Jonathan Luigs, Cincinnati (#106) Free Agent
            5) Blake Schlueter, Denver (#225) Practice Squad for Falcons
            6) A.Q. Shipley, Pittsburgh (#226) Philly Practice Squad

            And we pull the only pro-bowler out of a bunch of centers who never ended up playing center.

            Yeah, things definitely couldn’t have been worse with one of them.

          • Biki

            Max Unger got hurt and out for the season, hence he wasn’t on the depth chart, but he started for them last year. Not to mention a bunch of Centers who were available via free agency that year.

            yes, it is absolutely definitely nice to know that we have talent at the center position and hopefully he stays healthy and is here for his entire career, but it is also fair to wonder “what if” we got a player in a position that is harder to find upper-level talent even with the 21st pick: like Harvin, Nicks, Matthews, and Kenny Britt.

          • cranky m

            yeah, Harvin would have been a real nice pick, what with the chronic migraines keeping him from playing, not to mention the other chronic that he has quite a bit of history with. Also would have been good, considering he would have had no qb to throw him the ball and no o-line to protect said quarterback

          • http://twitter.com/cpmack Chris M

            That’s fine, Biki. You can play “what if” all you like. That’s certainly your right. I’ll sit back and be extremely pleased with a pro-bowl franchise center who stops the likes of Haloti Ngata, Vince Wilfork and Casey Hampton. The latter of whom absolutely destroyed Nick Mangold and ended his game this past Sunday.

            I, for one, would like to start a trend where we’re actually happy with drafting pro-bowlers, no matter what position they play. If that trend keeps up, then we’ll have our blockbuster linebackers soon enough.

          • Biki

            thanks bro, was waiting to get your approval to play “what if” regarding the Browns. most fans have only been playing it for most of the past 45 years that we’ve have been in NFL purgatory…

            one big “what if” for next year is if “what if” Lauvao can stay healthy, would be nice to know he’s another guy we can keep at RG for the next 10 years and not worry about it.

          • http://twitter.com/cpmack Chris M

            I feel better about myself knowing that you seek my approval, Biki. Any time I can help out please let me know (Hah)

            Lauvao coming around would certainly be huge, and then really leave them to drafting a right tackle in the 3rd or 4th round. O-line Set.

          • Biki

            there are some decent guys who will be unrestricted. Sucks that we don’t know if we will even have a season next year let alone the cap room the Browns have. Sure would be fun to play “what if” on who we can afford to go after in FA

      • TA

        First off you are assuming the Browns couldn’t have signed a FA C to replace Fraley or even taken a Center in the 2nd or 3rd round. Nobody said the only player that can replace Fraley is Mack. Also, I have no problems with them trading down I just felt now , and at that time as well so no hindsight here, that they should’ve received more impact players instead of marginal fringe starters like Elam and Coleman as well as drafting a safe player like Mack. What’s the Browns biggest need since they’ve been back? Impact players. Take a look at GB, they have impact players all over the field on both sides of the ball and btw two of them were available in that draft in Matthews and Raji. Teams that are loaded already, see Pittsburgh with Pouncey, can afford to take safe players at a position like Center bc they already are loaded with impact players. Also, Raji was not a DE at BC he was a 4-3 NT and with his size could’ve easily played NT in a 3-4 or at the very least gone to DE. Of course Orakpo transitioning to an OLB in a 3-4 was risky, no doubt, but good teams know how to evaluate and make a sound decision. Lamarr Woodley had no problem translating from a 4-3 DE at Michigan to a 3-4 OLB in Pittsburgh.

        • Anonymous

          Yeah, again, how? How could they have gotten more value when the consensus was that there was no difference between #5 and #21, and when you’d have to pay someone twice as much at #5 as you would at #21?

          Or are just back to naked second-guessing a decision to draft a second year Pro Bowl center? If so, carry on.

        • Bandit

          There is some huge assumption here that other teams were going to give the Browns something more than the Jets. Clearly the reason this went down is that New York placed a #5 value on Sanchez (which is highly debateable). I believe that Mangini was given the keys to the limo at this time to rebuild in 4-5 years, not one. With that it only seemed the prudent to build the offense line and aquire more picks than the mere 7 left to him by Savage. Regardless, of the 32 players selected in the first round of 2009, Magini found only one of a handful of probowl players. Gee I wish he had two more picks in the first round also but he did not.

          • Anonymous

            Exactly. Why is this hard? Why? Why? Why?

        • cranky m

          you’re on a roll of horrible opinions. The biggest need is Impact Players. we should have drafted Impact Players. there are roughly 2oo hundred reasons that’s stupid, but here’s two for starters:
          trying to draft “impact players” without having any foundation for your team is completely idiotic and counter-productive. See: CJ Spiller.
          More importantly: i wasnt aware that drafting “impact players” was an exact science. if it’s so blatantly obvious before the draft who are going to end up being “impact players,” i’m fairly certain the draft would always turn out quite differently. If it’s so easy, going into the draft, to know who the “impact players” are, why the hell do so many teams miss on draft picks????

          • The Cuuuuuuuuuuuuuugs

            Cranky – you’re a moron. Impact players would have saved this team. Just look at how productive Williams and Stewart were in Carolina. Those guys made tons of plays! Larry Fitzgerald, probably the most athletic WR always makes the big play – and he once again took Arizona to greatness. Look at how good Cincinnati did with T.O. and Ochocinco out there – I mean, no one could stop those two playmakers!

            And the Browns need to draft these playmakers! Here’s what the Browns SHOULD have done the last two years – if Mangini hadn’t screwed it all up.

            2009:
            Trade Derek Anderson to Lions for 1st overall pick: Michael Crabtree.
            Trade Brady Quinn to Rams for 2nd overall pick: Clay Matthews.
            Trade 5th pick to Green Bay for Aaron Rodgers.
            Trade 2nd Round pick and 7th Round pick to Minnesota: Percy Harvin
            Trade 3rd Round pick to Atlanta for Roddy White.
            Draft Alex Mack in the 4th Round. If Alex Mack is not available, draft Ndamukong Suh a year early.

            See, with just six simple moves, look at the Browns! Loaded with playmakers!

          • The Cuuuuuuuuuuuuuugs

            Ha, and I apparently don’t even need to mention what the Browns would have done in 2010… hooray for Newcastle!!!

    • http://twitter.com/cpmack Chris M

      Orakpo and Raji were both 4-3 defensive ends coming out of college. Taking one of them and turning them into a project with the 5th overall pick would have made absolutely no sense at all. I’m not saying that they aren’t good players, just not a good fit for what the Browns were trying to do on defense.

      Harvin just got busted smoking pot at the combine, so that threw up some red flags.

      Oher is simply overrated (probably because of his movie), and if anyone knew that Nicks was going to be top flight out of college, well, 27 other teams were fooled besides the Browns.

      Clay Matthews is awesome, and he probably will be for a long time. But to say that the Browns didn’t receive “good value” when they got 3 starters, including a franchise center who just made his first pro-bowl in his second season is assinine. A stud linebacker is a much sexier position than Center, but that doesn’t mean it’s any more important at all.

      • Biki

        Veikune was a 4-3 LB in college, didn’t stop Mangini from drafting him with the hopes that they will be able to convert him. Mangini should’ve been able to get the Jets 2010 1st roundpick as well.

        Raji and Orapko play in a 3-4 in the NFL, seems like they had a real tough time adjusting.

        and yes, a stud LB is absolutely more important than the Center position. position scarceity is important. the difference between a serviceable center and an all-pro center is not nearly the same as a serviceable LB and an all-pro LB. LB’s can really make a difference in the game. of course center’s can change the game by fumbling exchanges and being dominated by the DT’s, but still, i don’t think any GM would agree with you that a stud center is just important to have as a stud LB

        • http://twitter.com/cpmack Chris M

          You’re omitting a huge point – Veikune wasn’t drafted 5th overall – he was drafted 52nd.

          Hey Captain Hindsight, nice call on their adjustments. Because that’s certainly something that can be predicted out of college.

          How can you possibly say with a straight face that a Center doesn’t make as much of an impact as a linebacker does in a game? They handle the ball as much as the quarterback does.

          • Biki

            again, you can find Centers in later rounds and in free agency. You don’t typically get the chance to draft a huge impact player that you can get with the #5 pick.

            i would take Brian Cushing over Alex Mack any day of the week.

          • http://twitter.com/cpmack Chris M

            1 impact player won’t put a team over the edge when you have 15 other holes to fill. At the time, they needed to fill as many holes as possible with serviceable starters.

            Cushing had 53 tackles and 1.5 sacks in 12 games this year. Steroid hangover maybe?

          • Biki

            again, i doubt Elam and Coleman will be on the team next year.

            look it’s not a shocker that Mack is a very good center, he was the #1 Center on all the draft boards, it was a nice safe pick for the Browns. everything is always easier with hindsight but when you are lacking talent at key skill positions as the Browns do, it would’ve been nice to take a shot a high-talent guy with that pick, we were definitely mentioned as teams who were looking at Raji and Orapko, how great would it be to know we had them for the next 10 years??

          • Anonymous

            This is as dumb as second-guessing gets. I swear, one day I’m going to pull the plug on you, Biki. Keep pushing.

          • Biki

            i prefaced it that hindsight is great to have. but being the degenerate gambler that i am, i’d much rather have gambled on trying to get some elite talent on the team that you have a good chance in getting, like we got with Haden and Joe Thomas. but it is what it is and i’m glad we have Mack with the savings that we did. but when we’re as bad as we have been, with as much lack of high-end talent that we have, it’s sometimes fun to play the “what if?” game.

            regardless hopefully Heckert can get Mack, Thomas, and Steinbach some help on the right side of the line so we can continue to dominate up front on both sides of the line. lot of FA’s out there, hopefully we will see the fruits of the cap savings we got from jumping down from 5 to 21 this offseason.

          • Stkoran

            What’s wrong with making a safe pick at a position of need for a team with a horrible draft record? I’d much rather start filling out a talent deprived roster with “safe picks” who make the Pro Bowl instead of swinging for the fences and hoping we hit a home run every fourth time we draft.

            Orapko went #13 and Cushing went #15, meaning they weren’t really in play at #5. The team would have crucified for a) not drafting Sanchez, and b) taking guys who were slotted well lower that high. More likely, the Browns could have drafted a DE at #17 after the trade. Robert Ayers was taken #18 by the Broncos. We could have had him, and we would all be decrying another wasted pick.

          • cranky m

            allow me to just copy and paste this from my reply to somebody else’s idiotic opinion about this:
            The biggest need is Impact Players. we should have drafted Impact Players. there are roughly 2oo hundred reasons that’s stupid, but here’s two for starters:
            trying to draft “impact players” without having any foundation for your team is completely idiotic and counter-productive. See: CJ Spiller.
            More importantly: i wasnt aware that drafting “impact players” was an exact science. if it’s so blatantly obvious before the draft who are going to end up being “impact players,” i’m fairly certain the draft would always turn out quite differently. If it’s so easy, going into the draft, to know who the “impact players” are, why the hell do so many teams miss on draft picks????

          • cranky m

            that is BLATANTLY absurd. Cushing over Mack? you guys would be absolutely terrible GM’s, to be sure.
            Yeah, it’s impossible to find good LB’s later in the draft…what round were Jerome Harrison, Lance Briggs, Zach Thomas, Karlos Dansby, etc etc, drafted in again?????

          • Ronnie

            And the catcher in baseball handles the ball as much as the pitcher. They have to be more important/more valuable than a center fielder.

        • Captain Spaulding

          Veikune was a DE in college.

          7 posts in one hour Biki? Shouldn’t you at least pretend to get some work done?

          • Biki

            i’m a fast typer

          • Anonymous

            He got you there, Spaulding.

        • Stkoran

          What do you mean by “as well?” As in Browns trade #5 for Jets #17, #52, Elam, Coleman, Ratliff AND their 2010 first rounder (#29)? No team is making that trade. That’s 2000 points worth of picks plus three players for 1500 points.

          I would argue that the Jets overpaid for the pick anyway, but were willing to do so because they thought Sanchez was going to their Roethlisberger. Thus far, he has kept a team with playoff level talent in the playoffs, but hasn’t really been a difference maker (see Career Rating of 70.2, 29 TD, 33INT). Can you imagine what these number would have been playing for a Cleveland Browns team sans Alex Mack? He was the right pick for the Jets, not the Browns.

          And please, enough with the “but the Browns could have drafted a different good player instead who is playing well for a different team but we really have no idea how he’d being doing as a Brown” argument. This is just like the people who were up in arms after we BEAT Carolina and Miami because we didn’t win by enough. The Browns have three winning seasons since 1989 – ANY win is a big deal.

          Same with the draft. Our previous #1′s were Couch, Brown, Warren, Green, Faine, Winslow, Edwards, Wimbley, Thomas, and Quinn. Not exactly a stellar success rate on picking up big talents. Then the team nabs a Pro Bowl center and people complain that maybe we could have gotten someone better. Incredible!

          The comparisons to DA don’t fly either. His whole season was made on four big games (13 TD, 2 INT, 1025 yards, Avg. Rating of 129, 4-0 record). The rest of the time he put up an average rating of 70.9, went 6-6, and had one game with a rating above 83 over the final nine games of the season, including a 4 INT performance in the biggest game of the year. Anderson’s selection was based mostly on having a decent year for a good team, as he was only the tenth rated passer in the AFC. Mack, meanwhile, was selected despite the team’s poor record, and is considered by some to be the best center in the NFL. No one had Derek Anderson in the conversation for best NFL QB, and the team actually considered getting rid of him when the season was over.

          • Chris Stanovic

            The problem with the trade wasn’t the players drafted. Yes, yes, we can look back and put together an all pro draft, but obviously that was never going to happen. BTW, for the people talkinb about Orakpo, you have to remember that Mangini drafted Vernon Gholston, who is such an epic bust that it probably soured him on drafting a transitional player so high. Its true that our cap management was bad under Savage and we couldn’t afford to miss with the 5 pick, HOWEVER, Grossi is right when he says Mangini should have gotten the Jets 1st the next year, or at the very least their 2nd. Lets not turn Abe Elam into something he’s not, because outside of the Jacksonville game, he was a marginal starting safety. They should have gotten more picks regardless of your opinion on the Mack pick, and that’s all Grossi was saying. Frownie, I didn’t want Mangini fired either, but when he and Kokinis were making personel decisions, he was below average at best. Sadly, we found a great system for him to work in, one where he could focus all his attentions on coaching, but the public outcry forced Holmgrens hand.

          • http://twitter.com/cpmack Chris M

            I love how people like you base an argument that “Mangini drafted Ghoulston”, basically alluding to a statement like “Tannenbaum drafted everybody good”. That is f’n retarded, just an FYI.

            Nobody gives up all that the Jets gave up plus another number 1 the next year. If the Jets were bidding against themselves and suddenly figured it out, then the deal vanishes and the Browns get Mark Sanchez.

            And to be completely honest, if someone asked me if I would trade Alex Mack for Sanchez straight up, my answer would be absolutely not in a hundred years.

            Not every trade can be a home run where your team completely screws the other team out of the world, in spite of what Tony Grossi will have you believe.

          • Biki

            you puffin’ on some brown Frown today Chris? If so, that is some dirt you got there! You value Alex Mack higher than Mark Sanchez?? yes the Center position is obviously very important, every person on the field is important, but it’s rare for a team to build around the C, typically they build around the QB.. Sanchez is only 24, he has developed significantly in his 2 years, especially through his playoff experience where he has made big play after big play after big play. If their defense actually showed up in the first half, maybe he’d be in the SB right now.

          • Chris Stanovic

            Oh, and in no way is Mack the best center in the NFL. He’s good, but there is maybe one sportswriter who says that. He is good but not the best.

        • cranky m

          i think, actually, that the VAST majority of GM’s would say that the C position is more important than LB. i’ve heard many coaches and GM’s over the years say that you start by building your O-line and D-line, and then moving out from there. not once, in all of my 28 years, have i heard one say “you build a team starting with the LB’s”

          • Bikram Roy76

            obviously center is a very important position, but in terms of drafting a center to your team, i can’t remember the last time a center was drafted any higher than 18-21 and it’s usually just the #1 guy on the board, i don’t know if there have ever been 2 centers drafted in 1st round in the same year.

            why is it that you don’t see more centers drafted in the 1st round or in the top 10, ever??? seems to me because “the VAST majority of GM’s” agree that you can find talent at the Center position later in the draft or via FA.

        • Believelander

          you guys are such awesome 20/20 hindsight armchair gms.

          • Biki

            it’s not fair to ask “what if”??? isn’t that the point of being a fan?? 2nd guessing GMs and coaches? 2nd guessing Mangini around here is forbidden, but 2nd guessing Holmgren and Heckert is all good in the hood. makes sense.

          • Chris Stanovic

            I hated this draft MUCH more the day of than I do now. To the person who said Mangini didn’t draft Gholston, there is no way the gm drafts a player at 6 overall without the head coach signing off 100%. Also, I wasn’t criticizing the pick, I was just giving a reason as to why Mangini wouldn’t want the risk of another project that high. Back to the topic, the “haul” players we got from the jets included an old 3-4 end who was average in his prime, a subpar safety, and a 3rd string qb who is no longer with the team. So to think we couldn’t get their first, espacially when they’re moving up to get a qb, is hard to believe. Again, this is coming from a Mangini supporter, so read with an open mind.

    • eldaveablo

      We could spend all day debating whether this was a good trade or not. The fact is that since we can debate it all day means we can definitely dispute this being “one of the worst trades in Browns history.”

      I think once you get into the weeds so deep that you are talking about who you could have signed as a FA or whether other picks panned out, etc, it’s safe to say 20/20 hindsight is playing too much of a role.

      Look, we got a Pro-Bowl Center and didn’t have to pay #5 $$$ to get him. We acquired guys that filled needs when the Browns were stripped down to nothing. We acquired extra picks to fill other needs.

      For where the Browns were at the time, this trade made sense to me and still does. My only regret is that we didn’t have Heckert at the time, and Mangini did a lousy job at using the additional picks. While me may all disagree on Mangini’s skill at coaching, I think most of us agree that he is a much better coach than GM/Talent evaluator.

    • cranky m

      Rajii i can see, but drafting Orakpo with the number 5 pick??? What the hell kind of idiotic team-building strategy is that?
      “I know our offensive line only has two decent players and we have an abundance of servicable LB’s, but hell with it…let’s draft a LB for HUGE money and let our offensive line continue to be shite!”
      if you ever get offered a GM position, do whats best for that team and decline.

      • TA

        I wasn’t going to respond until this idiot Cranky had to try and call me out. I have no issue with someone not agreeing with my opinions but you sound really dumb calling me a moron. Hey Cranky you sound like a real genius and all but don’t even try and go toe to toe with me on the NFL and the draft. You’ll lose every time trust me. You are calling me a moron for wanting a pass rushing OLB with the #5 pick?? Yeah what a dumb comment. I’m sure Pittsburgh with James (not Jerome you dumb ass) Harrison, GB with Clay JR and Baltimore with Suggs (a top 10 pick btw) would argue that a legit pass rusher on the edge isn’t a good building block for a defense that hasn’t had one since they’ve been back. Fine you can argue that there have been some busts like Gholston, etc that high but guys like Suggs have been stars as well so it can go both ways. Orakpo has 19 sacks in two years. That’s impact. And way to pick CJ Spiller of all guys to make your “impact players” point. Anyone who knows anything about the draft knew that taking a 3rd down back at #9 was moronic. He couldn’t even be on the field all 3 downs so of course he’s not going to make a big impact.

        • cranky m

          you just made me augh for the first time today, so cheers. What are the credentials that make you such a draft expert, if i may ask? since you obviously seem to consider yourself as such. also, i wasnt aware that there even were Winners and Losers in the comment page. silly me.

          • cranky m

            Also, are you implying that the Packers, Ravens, and Steelers wouldnt be good without those particular players? Are those guys seriously the building blocks that made those franchises good? I’m fairly certain you could plug other linebackers into those spots and, while there would obviously be a drop-off, those teams would still be good. and all of those players were drafted when the team was ALREADY good, which is when you can take a swing at a player like that.
            Also, GB, Baltimore, and Pittsburgh all drafted o-lineman in the first round over the ast two seasons. was that stupid of them to do, since o-linemen apparently have no impact on the game???

          • Anonymous

            Comment of the Decade:

            “don’t even try and go toe to toe with me on the NFL and the draft. You’ll lose every time trust me”

          • TA

            I had a feeling you’d enjoy that.

          • TA

            Actually I do have a draft track record and I’ll leave it at that. Way to take one comment I made and turn it into “lineman apparently have no impact on the game”. Every player has some sort of impact but certain positions make a greater impact. Any legit talent evaluator knows that championship teams are built with a good o-line, d-line, pass rush and QB. I have never stated in any of my posts that taking an o-lineman in the first round is a mistake. That’s ludicrous. I do think, however, taking a Center in the first round when a team like the Browns are devoid of talent at major impact positions like Safety, D-line and a pass rusher is a mistake. That’s all I’m saying. I think anyone who knows anything about football would agree that a LT is a much more important position on the line as a C so bundling all the line positions as “O-line” is not valid. As I said before a team that is loaded and has already filled the “impact” positions like Pittsburgh can afford to take a C like Pouncey in round 1. Just take a look. They have their Safety- Polamalu, Pass rusher- Harrison & Woodley, LT- Starks and QB-Ben so they could afford to go C. The Browns couldn’t afford that luxury. Again you are arguing that O-line is important, and I’m not disagreeing. I just think that anything outside of Tackle can wait until the other impact positions are filled.

          • cranky m

            see, i think the opposite; shore up your o-line and d-line, and THEN go after impact players at the other positions. i’m not going to lie, i wanted Rajii going into that draft, but i was perfectly happy with Mack, and even moreso now.

            You have to understand, Mangini wasnt going for the quick fix; he was looking to build long-term, in which case o-line is a solid choice. Unfortunately, Randy Lerner still owns the team so that whole “long-term” thing didnt work out very well…

            However, i DO think that it’s completely and absolutely absurd to suggest drafting a WR in the first round, as some people have done. Just completely ludicrous. Drafting a WR in the 1st round with no QB and no o-line would be amongst the dumbest things possible in the draft.

            All i’m saying, drafting a HIGH-risk OLB for twice as much money as a C who was virtually guaranteed to be, at the very least, an above-avergae starter, makes no sense to me whatsoever. That’s the kind of thing that terrible teams like Buffalo do.

          • TA

            Fair enough. I think at the end of the day if Elam became a stud or if any of the 2nd rounders were major impact players the Mack selection would look even better. The thinking was right on but the execution a different story. Taking two possession WR’s in round 2 and a project from Hawaii and trying to convert him just made no sense. If the Browns would’ve gotten 2 legit starters then this discussion is moot and we’d all agree it was a great trade. I think in the context of how it panned out the Mack selection, although solid, doesn’t look as good bc the other players received and selected in round 2 were either fringe starters or busts. Maybe the thinking was that you take a safe, “guarantee” like Mack and try and hit with those 2nd rounders. I like Mack and like I said if just one of those other players was a Pro Bowler I would’ve loved it even more. I personally thought Orakpo had all the tools to convert and showed it against high level competition. He dominated Trent Williams at Okl and played well in Texas’ other big games and thought he’d be a good pro. Oh well they’ll get it right some day. Heckert has a nice track record with getting legit starters in Philly so I think he can do it again.

          • cranky m

            i have some faith in Heckert. or hope, at least.
            Elam actually surprised me with how well he played later in the season, but he’s definitely not a stud. but he’s better than what we had. i liked Poole, but you couldnt depend on him to stay healthy.
            i think one of the reasons people hate that deal was because it was with Mangini’s old team. People got the impression that he was trying to help them out. i, for one, was glad to see Edwards go.
            also, apologies for being a prick. i have a young daughter, which means i get no sleep. i chose this name for a reason…

  • BJ

    “Tony Grossi’s alarming four-hour-plus-plus murder swell for Mangini is still raging.” Awesome! Seriously, did you make this up or hear it from someone at a bar? Awesome!

    • Believelander

      Actually, he heard it at The Bar; those lawyers are quite the bunch of rowdy scalawags.

      • Anonymous

        Lies. The hospital is where you usually hear about these things. And prisons. It’s not really a joke.

      • Anonymous

        Lies. The hospital is where you usually hear about these things. And prisons. It’s not really a joke.

        • Believelander

          w/e, I saw the naked pics from the Firm’s Christmas party.

  • Brian Sipe

    Peter King calls Alex mack the best Center in the NFL… THE NFL!!!!!!!!!!! He said “if you need proof just watch the film of him on Vince Wilfork”

    • Biki

      Mack has proven to be one of the best Centers in the league, but just like TA said above, there were other areas of the team that had much more glaring needs. Not to discredit how valuable a Center is, but I don’t think most people can name more than 5 starting Center’s in the league off the top of their heads. only 5 were drafted in first round dating back to 2003, when the Browns selected Jeff Faine also at 21 (he was also a pro bowl alternative, although after he left the Browns of course)

      • http://twitter.com/cpmack Chris M

        “Not to discredit how valuable a Center is…”

        That’s actually exactly what you’re doing here, Biki. You’re saying that because there are sexier positions of need on the field that end up with more name recognition, that they are more important than the person snapping the ball to the quarterback on EVERY FREAKING PLAY the offense runs. ESPECIALLY when that person has to line up against Casey Hampton and Haloti Ngata twice a year.

        Who cares who can name any starting centers in the league? Just because they aren’t household names that means the position isn’t one of the most important on the field?

        • Ronnie

          You really need to stop with this train of thought. Is the C more important than the Left Tackle? The left tackle never handles the ball, right?

          • http://twitter.com/cpmack Chris M

            Who said that? The point that I’m trying to make is that the Center is a much more important position than some people are admitting. Especially when taking into account the nose tackles in the AFC North. I don’t even see how this point is debatable.

            And the Centerfielder / Catcher comparison is laughable. Although if you really want to argue that point, how has Jason Varitek had a job all these years with a career .258 batting average? How many Centerfielders keep a job hitting .258?

          • Believelander

            that’s sort of an odd point since our left tackle is a *cough* STUUUUUUUUUUD

        • Biki

          it’s not about name recognition, it’s about why GM’s rarely draft Centers any earlier than late in the 1st round. obviously we got Mack at a decent slot, but did we get enough in return for dropping from 5 to 21. while things may be different in Mangini is around next year, it looks like Mack will be the only person we have showing from that trade on the roster next year.

          but i will definitely agree with most of you that Grossi is dead wrong on calling it one of the worst trades in Browns history, but it definitely won’t be up there with one of the best trades either. Trading for Hillis though, that was Mangenius!

  • Ronnie

    So for one year, Mack is the 4th best center in the AFC. Congrats are in order, I suppose.

    Totally makes up for passing on all that WR talent.

    • Anonymous

      Just think, if we’d have nabbed some of that WR talent, we might still have D.A. or Quinn as our quarterback. If only.

      • Ronnie

        Completely agree that adding elite talent is, on its face, a bad idea.

        Listen, it’s clear Grossi is wrong in nearly all of his Browns analysis. It’s beyond dispute.

        It should be so very easy to show that he’s wrong that you needn’t resort to data mining or any other way you’d like to cut up your sample size.

        This happens here all too frequently. Continue to tell the story that needs to be told, but add some rigor to the analysis.

    • cranky m

      What would he have been able to do with WR talent, and no quarterback to throw them the ball and no o-line to protect that QB??? You guys are going about this COMPLETELY ass-backwards…

      • Ronnie

        But Derek Anderson was a Pro-Bowler, a pretty cheap salary one at that.

        I was led to believe that meant something in this post.

        • cranky m

          i think we can all be reasonable adults and agree that DA was a complete and total fluke. Did anybody here really believe that he was going to continue to play at a high level like that? Because i sure as hell didnt…

          i recently read a book about statistics which spoke at great length about how it’s possible for an athlete, ESPECIALLY at a skill position, to have an incredible season based almost entirely upon lucky/fortunate circumstances, rather than skill or talent. it’s safe to say that happened with DA

    • Bj

      Matt Millen and Detroit had been taking all the best WR for years, and it didn’t help them accomplish shit considering the QB never had enough time to throw the ball.

  • Fluffhead

    Peep the obsession with Tony Grossi! I don’t get it. Do you think to fortunes of the Browns would be different if Grossi was not a beat writer for the Browns?

    Also, has a team ever traded out of the top 5 without getting the other teams first round pick the next year? Hell the Browns traded for the 22nd pick i think when they drafted Quinn and still had to give up their first round pick the next year.

    So I do agree with Grossi, not getting the Jets first round pick the next year should have been a deal breaker.

    • Anonymous

      1.) “Do you think to fortunes of the Browns would be different if Grossi was not a beat writer for the Browns?”

      Yes.

      2.) “Also, has a team ever traded out of the top 5 without getting the other teams first round pick the next year?”

      Probably. Also ask, has the controversy over draft salary slotting ever been so high? Has the difference between the #5 and #21 picks ever been as indistinguishable as it was in 2009? Probably no, and no.

      • Fluffhead

        1. LOL, ok!

        2. Too bad Kokinis and and Mangini weren’t here to run any more drafts then. Oh yeah, Mangini’s hand picked GM left the team within a year of getting the job and sued them!

        Frowns, i like your site but you gotta let go with Mangini. There might be only one way to settle this. You, Grossi, Steel Cage Match. Eric Mangini special guest referee.

        • Believelander

          Could have had something to do with our developmentally disabled fake Mincer owner asking a HEAD COACH to hire an executive to be his boss??

          Mangini was probably thinking ‘Shit, I don’t know the first thing about hiring NFL executives…’

  • TA

    Whatever my stance is on that trade we can all agree that Grossi is a moron and should get his credentials taken away. That’s for damn sure.

    • Anonymous

      Now we’re getting somewhere.

  • TA

    Btw can we add Mary Kay to the list? She is just as bad, evidenced by her lack of knowledge on the Mark Whipple- OC article written last week. At no point in the article, when his name was introduced as a leading candidate, did she even approach the subject of Whipple at The U. This guy has been an OC/QB coach the last two seasons at Miami and was in charge of the debacle that is Jacory Harris. In all my years of following college football I have never seen a larger regression at the QB position than what we’ve seen from Jacory the last two seasons under Whipple’s watch. Jacory went from a possible Heisman candidate early last season to being relegated to the bench at the end of this season because he was so awful. Add this to the fact that Whipple was let go in Pittsburgh when Tomlin took over bc he felt that Ben had regressed too much in the prior season. But please Mary Kay feel free to ignore those two facts when trying to prop up Whipple as a mad genius with QB’s. What a freaking joke.

  • http://bryanjoiner.com/ Bryan Joiner

    Not getting Mark Sanchez is a tragedy along the lines of not getting Carl’s Jr. for lunch on your one day in California… because you had In N Out instead.

    • Anonymous

      I think Jack-N-The-Box might be a little more apropos – hot garbage if you ask me.

      • http://twitter.com/cpmack Chris M

        Ever had Del Taco? It almost makes Jack-N-The-Box look gourmet.

        • Anonymous

          Don’t they have a 3 tacos for a buck deal? I think they use horse meat. There’s one fairly close to my house and I’m too afraid to actually go in.

          • http://twitter.com/cpmack Chris M

            Yeah, years ago it was 3 tacos for $0.99. Not bad if you like a stale tortilla wrapped around a wad of old lettuce.

      • http://bryanjoiner.com/ Bryan Joiner

        I’m not a Mark Sanchez fan, but even I wouldn’t compare him to Jack in the Box. If we need to ‘tween it with Carl’s and J-i-t-B, that would put us in Whataburger territory, no? Still might be a bit high for the ‘chize. Coachie could be all over this one.

        The QBs-as-fast-food-chains post/comment is dying to be written, but the salt mines of Manhattan just blew the “end of lunch” bell.

        • Anonymous

          You did not just throw out Whataburger. That place isn’t even considered food in 12 states. But the People’s Champ likes it. On my way out to Cali, I stopped at one in the TX panhandle and thought I was going to die.

          http://www.tmz.com/2010/03/27/paul-wall-i-witnessed-a-burger-brawl/

          I can’t in good conscience put Whataburger above J-i-t-B – there is all kinds of crappy fast food on the West Coast.

  • http://twitter.com/cnp3 Chris Peters

    …has a team ever traded out of the top 5 without getting the other teams first round pick the next year?
    —————
    2003, I think, the Jets pulled the wool over the sheepish eyes of Bears management, trading two middle/late first round picks to get Dwayne Robertson. Poor simpletons that they are/were, the Bears never did recover. I mean except for that 2006-2007 season where they went to the Super Bowl.

    • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_XUMUVFPYOOTFE5JQUYIO6DZPVI kyle w

      I think the point was has any team ever traded a top 5 pick and not received two #1 picks. Most teams don’t have two 1st rd picks. Unless your the Patriots and they seem to have two every year.

      • http://twitter.com/cnp3 Chris Peters

        Okay, fair enough, but the bears got a 13 and a 22. We got what, a 17 and change? so the bears 4th pick for the jets 13th is similar enough to our 5th for their 17th to pretty much be a wash.

        Which means we talk about the extra parts. The bears got a 22 in addition to their mid first rounder, we got Coleman, Elam, Ratliff, and a second in addition to ours.

        If we traded the 22nd pick for Ratliff, Elam, Coleman, and the 52nd pick – that trade isn’t so bad as to really get TOO pissed off about it.

        Now what we did seems worse if you put the word “Veikune” where 52nd is.

        22nd pick for Ratliff, Elam, Coleman, and Veikune

        But the trade becomes a impossible to get 6 run home run or a buzzer beating four point shot if you put what the bears did with #22 in 2003 in that spot.

        Grossman for Ratliff, Elam, Coleman, and Veikune

        I guess my point is the only way you really get too worked up about the trade is if you’re starting your argument with the preordained goal of deficating on Eric Mangini’s face.

  • Art Brosef

    Hard to say? Is it as hard to say as, “OH MY GOD HELP ME THERES A MAN IN MY OFFICE WITH A FLAME THROWER!!???!!!”

    • Believelander

      That’s pretty easy to say.

  • Believelander

    I think we can all agree that everyone defending Tony Grossi’s point need a nice comfortable padded room. His theory of ‘worst blah blah blah ever’ has been completely debunked, yet all the Manginas out there continue to foam, deprived as they are of their medications.

    • Anonymous
      • Anonymous

        !!!!!!!!!!!!!1111!!1!!!!!!!!@!

    • Anonymous

      Argh. The one thing I thought I could safely look forward to after EM’s dismissal was never having to hear/read the nickname “Mangina” again.

      There goes *that* silver lining.

      • Believelander

        yeah, SmittyPop has been calling Mangini that for like 2 years now, so I started calling all the Mangini haters it. I can refrain if the ladies around here find the expression distasteful. Only polite.

        • Anonymous

          No worries. I’ve heard (and probably said) worse. Sometimes complaining about pointless things is cathartic for me.

          • Art Brosef

            Youve “probably” said worse things than Mangina? You must really be some kind of saint…….

          • Believelander

            lol, well if you ever need catharsis I’ll go on a rant. til then ill utilize this for inspiration to come up with more fun things to call Biki and Smitty…and Grossi.

  • http://www.redright88.com Titus Pullo

    While it could be argued that some NFL teams don’t need to take a center in the first round of the draft, the Browns play in a division where they have to face Casey Hampton and Haloti Ngata each twice a year. So center is a very important position for this particular team.

    That Mack is a legitimate Pro Bowler (not a “no one else wants to play so we’ll let you into the game Derek”) who should have made the team over Nancy-boy Pouncey if the first place only solidifies selecting him when the Browns did.

    The thing that continues to gall and vex is the Browns are building an NFL-caliber offensive line (or at least 60 percent of one) and can’t win, while the Steelers are going to the Super Bowl with one of the worst offensive lines in the league.

  • Craig

    Great stuff sir. The trade does look a little one-sided on paper because the Browns blew the Veikune pick mostly. My real problem with the negative views of this trade are that it is selective memory.

    The Browns needed wholesale culture change and they had to have it fast in the wake of Romeo Crennel’s ungodly reign in Berea as country club event planner. The Browns’ trade with the Jets could look poor from a pure talent standpoint until you realize that the team’s culture was remade in a single season. While nowhere near superstars on the field, guys like Abe Elam, Kenyon Coleman, etc helped the Browns achieve that.

    I have said it way too many times already, but Mangini’s biggest legacy (assuming it endures with Shurmur) will be the work ethic and culture that he rebuilt in two seasons. For all the shortcomings that people harp on Mangini for (Frowns obviously excluded) I just giggle at anyone who doesn’t recognize the extreme mass culture change that he executed in such a short time.

    Credit where it is due. Mangini botched the hell out of some draft picks, but his strategy of trading down and infusing the Browns with pro’s pros was sound.

    • The Cuuuuuuuuuuuuuugs

      Amen. Good work Craig. It all boils down to some simple math:

      Browns before Mangini < Browns after Mangini

      Yes, you can talk about draft picks, quarterbacks, strategy, press conferences, Holmgren, or any issue. But I don't think you will find someone who would be willing to argue that the Browns are worse off now than they were two years ago.

      • Biki

        Alex Mack, Robiskie, MoMass, Stuckey, Benard, and Roth are the only guys that Mangini solely brought to the Browns. Savage had everyone else but Colt, Fujita, Haden, Ward, Lauvao, Hardesty, Sheldon, and Gocong..

        not sure how much “better off” we are now because of Mangini. i expect Robiskie and MoMass to blossom in the west coast as #2-#4 receivers, and Mack is obviously a badass, but we’ll see if Benard and Roth are even around next year.

        • Biki

          my bad, forgot Coleman and Elam, but we’ll see if they are around next year as well..

          • Anonymous

            You forgot someone else. FYI. … Same goes for him, too, though.

        • Biki

          funny how nobody wants to give Savage props for drafting one of the rare 1st team all-pro players in Browns history. but hail to mangini for drafting an alternate pro bowler (no offense Alex, i love you!) but the hypocrisy and false elitism of the Fangini’s is getting tired.

  • Anonymous

    This isn’t beating a dead horse. It’s beating a dead, retarded, Italian horse. The jets trade was pretty good. Worked out nicely for both teams value wise, we just f-ed up w/ vaikune.

    We are all cheeseheads.

  • Jim

    The assumption here is pro bowl designations mean something. They don’t. It’s a nice title and I’m sure Mack is happy for the monetary bonus he received but I don’t believe him being selected as the third or fourth best center in the AFC is proof positive the Browns got good value for trading the number 5 pick.

    It’s extremely hard to quantify the value of offensive linemen; it’s a position that if you’re doing your job you’re basically anonymous to the masses. Mack certainly seems like a solid player, and was a good pick at number 21 no doubt.

    Regardless, I still question the overall value of that trade, even if its not quite as bad as Grossi claims. Sanchez, for all his faults, has been to two AFC title games in his first two seasons. Regardless of your inclination to downplay this, it’s clearly an accomplishment and he clearly is that franchises QB for the foreseeable future. Given the uncertainty the Browns have had at that position I’d say the Jets got an extremely valuable piece with that pick.

    We got the aforementioned Mack, a journeyman DE, an average safety. Those latter two start for a team you have continually railed against as lacking any discernible talent. The key would have been better usage of that second round pick. Unfortunately, it was traded for two picks that turned out to do absolutely nothing for the Browns.

  • Sri Oda

    grossi is stupid !

  • Browns fan

    How is Alex Mack a probowl center? He is horrible along with the entire offensive line in 2011. Colt McCoy is on pace to shatter the QB running record because he’s running for his life. This guy is the most over-rated guy I’ve seen in 25 years.

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