The Profound Mystery of Jayme Mitchell and More from when Tommy met Tony

by Cleveland Frowns on February 15, 2011

We touched on it briefly yesterday but there’s still loads to unpack from Tony Grossi’s recent sit-down with Browns GM Tom Heckert so let’s get to it.

Starting with the question of whether the Browns franchise could ever recover from the loss of defensive end Jayme Mitchell, obtained from the Vikings for a seventh-round pick on October 6th. Mitchell, a free agent now, didn’t play a single down as a Cleveland Brown in 2010 and Grossi wanted to know why, despite acknowledging that Mitchell “never played in a 3-4 defense at any level” and opining that Mitchell “doesn’t have a body that would ever fit in that scheme.”

Per Grossi:

Heckert described this one as “bizarre.” . . .

“[Mitchell] was by far our best pass rusher and never got on the field, so I can’t answer that one,” Heckert said. “Eric watched him [on tape prior to the trade] and Eric liked him. So I don’t know what happened after that. He’s a nickel pass rusher on third down. We thought he could really rush the passer.”

How bizarre?

We knew it was bad, but was the Browns’ defensive line in such bad shape that a guy who could be had for a seventh round pick would immediately become “by far [the team's] best pass rusher”? Why would the Vikings let go of this gem for such a low price if he “could really rush the passer”? Even if Grossi is wrong to say Mitchell could never play in a 3-4 with his body type, how bizarre could it possibly be that a guy who was obtained for a seventh round pick and who never played a down in a 3-4 scheme wouldn’t end up seeing the field for Mangini’s Browns after joining the team in the middle of the season?

Heckert tells us that “Eric watched him on tape and liked him,” but it’s probably safe to assume that Mangini was too busy coaching to be digging through the scrap heap to find mid-season candidates to provide depth along the defensive line, and that Heckert is the one who showed him the tape on Mitchell.

So why wasn’t Heckert’s answer to Grossi here something like: “Shoot, Tony, with Kenyon [Coleman], Shaun [Rogers] and Robaire [Smith] all over the injury reports those first four weeks, we knew we were going to have to add some depth along the defensive line. Problem was, there wasn’t a whole heck of a lot out there. We all agreed that even though Mitchell had never played in a 3-4 and doesn’t really have the body type for it, we needed warm bodies and he looked decent enough for a seventh round pick, so we went for it. Sometimes guys have a hard time adjusting to a new system, especially with the complex schemes that Eric runs, but whatever Mitchell didn’t give us in games, he was at least at practice every day, and was available for game duty had the injuries along the defensive line gotten worse. Really no “mystery” (finger quotes) here, Tony. Sometimes you pick up a guy for a seventh-round pick and he doesn’t turn out to be an All-Star. It’s just life in the Big Boy’s League. Hurr, hurr.”

How isn’t that a really easy answer, and the best one under any possible circumstance? Instead, Heckert wants us to believe that Mitchell is the next Dwight Freeney. But if that’s the case, why isn’t Heckert quietly backing up to him with a dump truck of cash to sign him up to be a Brown? Why let the whole world know?

Bizarre.

Relatedly, but potentially better news for Browns fans, is that receivers Demetrius Williams, Jordan Norwood, and Carlton Mitchell are all signed through at least 2011, with Norwood a restricted free agent in 2012, and Mitchell signed through 2013. Like with the case of Jayme Mitchell, Grossi tackled the profound mystery of these three receivers having remained on the active roster in 2010 without having seen game action. Heckert explained:

“The guys we loaded up on are guys we kind of liked and those guys are still going to be here,” Heckert said. “Why we didn’t use them? That question I can’t answer.”

Mitchell was the Browns’ sixth round pick last April, unanimously considered “a project” when drafted; Norwood has zero NFL catches in his two-year career after starting with the Eagles, and Williams, now a five year vet, pulled in a total of 21 catches in his last two seasons with the perennially receiver-starved Ravens before joining the Browns. If it’s anything close to a mystery as to why these guys didn’t see the field in 2010, look for a breakout year from one or most of them in 2011, and don’t expect the Browns to draft A.J. Green with the #6 pick in April.

On to another clue for April, if the draft is as deep as folks say it is along the defensive line, maybe we shouldn’t be shocked if one of the top cornerbacks, Patrick Peterson or Prince Amukamara, is the Browns’ first round choice, because Heckert’s comments to Grossi strongly suggest that Eric Wright is a goner:

“We thought we had three really good corners. Eric Wright, whatever happened to him I have no idea. If Eric Wright would have played like he played the year before, we probably would have had one of top (groups of) three guys around. But Eric Wright didn’t play very well.”

It’s one way for Heckert to say “Eric Wright is not a good corner,” but we’re mystified ourselves by how Heckert could be so convinced as to make such a bold statement. While Wright ended up taking the brunt of the criticism from fans for early-season breakdowns in the secondary, it was easy to identify many of those breakdowns as caused by rookie safety (and Heckert draftee) T.J. Ward, whose work in pass coverage was a concern coming out of college. On many occasions last season, Ward avoided criticism because he wasn’t in the picture when he was supposed to be, and Wright took the goat horns for trying to cover up. After each of what were widely thought to be Wright’s worst games, the first ones against the Ravens and Bengals (where Anquan Boldin and Terrelle Owens each racked up jackpot fantasy stats), Mangini explained that there were several occasions in each game where Wright was supposed to have help from the safeties, but didn’t; An analysis by Doug Farrar of Football Outsiders backed this up, and Wright even politely tried to explain it to us himself when we got after him on Twitter during a preseason game.

It’s only natural that Eric Mangini and Rob Ryan would have asked more from Wright than anyone else in the Browns secondary in executing their complex schemes, and it’s also just science that Wright would have had a hard time holding down a unit that essentially started two rookies, especially when one of the rookies is a hard-gunning run-minded safety. This all goes double or more considering the Browns’ inability to generate any kind of consistent pass rush.

And making Heckert’s Wright-bashing even worse is both 1) how much better the defense looked (and how much better Wright himself was thought to be playing) as the season progressed and the rookies, naturally, improved (see games against the Saints, Patriots, and Jets); and 2) how much the Browns defense suffered when Wright went out to injury the week after the fateful Jets loss.

"Lil' help over top!"

". . ."

It was the week after the loss to the Jets when Wright was lost to injury in the first quarter in Jacksonville, after which quarterback David Garrard and tight end Marcedes Lewis had a second-half field day in the Jags 24-20 comeback win that was clinched by a 74-yard Maurice Jones-Drew romp through the Browns secondary.

Wright sat out the next week against Carolina where the Browns barely survived the aerial assault of rookie QB Jimmy Clausen and his 32nd-ranked Carolina offense. He then came back for limited action in the win against Miami and the two close losses to the Bills and Bengals before landing on the IR for the season’s final two games against Pittsburgh and Baltimore. While the defense admirably held the Ravens to 258 total yards, Roethlisberger and the Steelers had their way with the Browns through the air for 318 yards in a blowout.

Why would Heckert hang Wright out to dry given any or all of these facts? Why would Grossi bother to ask?

Why would Grossi want to waste time dwelling on a cornerback who might actually be decent, and who might actually be retained by the Browns, when he can focus on the midseason trade of a disgruntled running back whose new employers in Philly had as much use for as the 2010 Browns did (none)?

Remember, Heckert first told Grossi that “it wasn’t going to do the Browns a whole lot of good to keep [Jerome Harrison].” But goes on to add that “[the RB depth was] “good for a while” but that “once Eric wanted us to get rid of Jerome, that’s when it started [going bad].”

This prompted Grossi’s colleague at the PD, Bud Shaw, to ask, “why did the [Browns approve the trade]? To support their coach? A coach they didn’t believe was the right guy?”

And we still wonder why any of it matters today anyway if Heckert admits that “it wasn’t going to do the Browns a whole lot of good to keep Harrison.”

Remember back in October we put some time into making lists to help ourselves and Harrison make some sense of what he called at the time a “mind-boggling trade.” Here they are again, for reference:

List of 2010 Cleveland Browns running backs who’ve griped to the press about roles and carries:

1. Jerome Harrison

/end of list

List of 2010 Cleveland Browns running backs who average 4.6 yards per carry:

1. Peyton Hillis

/end of list

List of 2010 Cleveland Browns running backs who average 2.9 yards per carry:

1. Jerome Harrison

/end of list

List of 2010 Cleveland Browns running backs who’ve told the press that they aren’t really good at running with the football until the second half of football games:

1. Jerome Harrison

/end of list

List of Lerner-Era Cleveland Browns coaches who were never accused of not being good enough at “managing egos”:

1. Butch Davis

2. Romeo Crennel

/end of list

To think that Heckert could have avoided any of the pesky follow-up questions from Shaw simply by briefly referring to any or most of these lists.

However badly Grossi might have misled his subject or spun any of what he said, there’s enough plain nonsense from Heckert here (especially on Wright and Mitchell) that we’re actually starting to feel some real empathy for the beat writer. It’s entirely possible that absolute power really does corrupt absolutely, and that a decade of watching what happens to the men placed as executives in the vacuum of the Lerner family’s Browns would irreversibly alter anyone’s brain chemistry. Especially when the executives all get to escape with golden parachutes leaving the beat writer stuck in the vacuum for peanuts.*

It’s certainly consistent with a pattern that’s painfully easy to identify, and if Heckert’s comments to Grossi make you feel any better about any of it, we’d really love to hear from you.

—————

That’s all for today, other than a brief footnote to reiterate our belief that accidents can happen to break even the most unforgiving patterns, that our best hope was that Eric Mangini was just unique enough, his experience just strange enough, the Jets’ mistake just bad enough that Mangini might have been the guy to break the pattern in Brownstown. That all tends to get lost in a lot of the discussion here, as it goes.

Also, yeah, we haven’t even touched on Heckert’s comments on Shaun Rogers. Maybe later, but we’ll be back with something more fun tomorrow, thoughts on some good Browns news, etc. Hope everyone has a decent go of it in the meantime.

—————

*Also, none of this excuses the Pain Dealer for not having placed Grossi on a generous disability plan already, and finding another lamb to throw into the void. It’s simply torture what they’re doing, and it’s horrifying.

  • Biki

    There are several other beat writers who I prefer over Grossi, Jeff Schudel, Steve Doerschuk, heck even newbie Nate Ulrich is better than Grossi.

  • Terry O.

    One of your best Frownie!

  • eldaveablo

    Not agreeing with you in regards to Heckert’s take on Wright.

    I don’t think the statement:

    “Eric Wright, whatever happened to him I have no idea. If Eric Wright would have played like he played the year before, we probably would have had one of top (groups of) three guys around. But Eric Wright didn’t play very well.”

    Is equal to:

    “Eric Wright is not a good corner”.

    If anything, he’s saying Wright didn’t have a very good year based on past performance. While I think Wright received more criticism than he deserved, I don’t think he played very well (again, based on high standards). Dealing with rookies made Wright look worse for reasons beyond his control, but based on what I saw from Wright, I don’t think he played up to his own standards.

    Is this a negotiation ploy? Was this something smart to say? Is Heckert savvy with the press? All these questions can be debated. I don’t think Eric Wright’s talent (he is very talented) is debatable. I also think Wright would be quick to say he didn’t have his best year. Is it bold to say he didn’t perform up to expectations?

    Maybe it’s not fair to Wright. Maybe the rookies had more of a negative impact than I can comprehend. That’s not really what I’m saying, I’m saying I think Heckert thinks Wright is a good corner, and had a sub-par year. And I think that’s a fair statement.

    • Anonymous

      He said, “We thought we had three really good corners. Eric Wright, whatever happened to him I have no idea.”

      i.e., we thought we had three really good corners, but Eric Wright wasn’t one.

      Anyway, I see your point. But even if you believe Wright is a good corner who had an objectively subpar year (questionable, given facts noted in detail above), there are a million better ways to say it, including: “Wright is a good corner who had a sub-par year.” And even if you really believe that, to say it without any reference to the role he played in a rookie-laden secondary plainly casts Wright in an unfair light, which is just, plainly, off.

      • eldaveablo

        Yeah, that’s kind of what I’m getting at. I don’t know whether Heckert isn’t very savvy with the press or too savvy – and I think it’s probably too early to tell. Did he intentionally cast Wright in an unfair light? Was he just too focused on the question to give the situation its proper context (rookie secondary)? Or maybe he did provide some context and his answer was selectively edited?

        Ironically, Heckert could have avoided all this if he used the Mangini method of dealing with the media (less is more). Then again, he’d be next in line for the Grossi Vendetta.

        On an unrelated note, I can’t wait for Grossi to anger Ray Rhodes. That would lead to an unpleasantness. Although, Grossi did survive Brian Cox….

        • Biki

          do those guys even deal with the media? I’ve never heard any other coaches quoted in any papers about any teams other than HC, DC, OC, or ST coordinator.

          But yeah, Rhodes can be fiery. i think he is going to a nice addition to the staff.

  • Orangeandbrownfan

    he is a Brown hater

  • http://twitter.com/jimkanicki jim kanicki

    the more you look at the heckert quotes it’s either:
    a. heckert is shockingly indiscreet or
    b. grossi printed an off-the-record convo.

    i am hoping it’s b. dont know why grossi would want to alienate the browns’ GM. i doubt heckert has much to say to grossi moving forward.

    • Terry O.

      I don’t understand why so many here are tripping over themselves to excuse Heckert.

      Yes, Grossi is a wiener, but it looks to me that Heckert is also a wiener.

      Its not like these are mutually exclusive conditions.

      • Biki

        Heckert seems like a guy who isn’t as “refined” as some other more experienced GMs are when it comes to the media. I think the Browns PR team probably needs to spend some time with him, although I’d much rather him be spending 24 hours a day on getting more bullets in the chamber for the offense and defense, although if he continues to bash players on their way out the door, it may hurt us in negotiating, but we’ll see, he didn’t really say anything about Rogers or Wright that weren’t deserving. But again, we are reading the quotes in the context that Grossi put them in, we didn’t get to sit in on the entire conversation so I would rather reserve judgment on whether Heckert is a wiener or not based on his pressers with the media that we can watch in entirety. But so far his drafting and pro personnel skills get a “so far so good” from me, so let’s see how this offseason goes.

        • Anonymous

          Is there an echo in here?

        • Bandit

          Not so certain that lacking refinement means you take shots at your players or a former coach to cover up for possible problems with selections you made regarding personnel as GM

          • Biki

            oh please, you’re not going to get the sympathy of most Browns fans on what he said about Rogers… The guy was a total bust for us under Mangini.. and not to say it was Mangini’s fault, Rogers came to camp out of shape both years and clearly didn’t seem to be putting in the 110% we expect from our players, especially one of the highest paid ones. Dude got paid like $30+ by the Browns in his 3 years.. Funny that Romeo has him in KC today..

          • actovegin1armstrong

            Math quiz for Biki?

          • Bandit

            Doubt he would pass. Not string math you know. Guess Heckart only attacked Rogers in his Grossi interview.

          • actovegin1armstrong

            Come on Bandit, please do not get me started.
            Dr Weinberg admitted that his string theory is a load of crap a long time ago. I have spoken with him a couple of times, he is here in Austin resting comfortably on his Nobel prize.
            Biki is on “Coach Math”, it is almost as bad as all of that relativity nonsense.
            I never understood that give 110% stuff, well…. until I bought one of those “Body Composition” scales. It said that I have 110% body fat.

          • Biki

            My bad, it was $23 million over 3 years: Rogers received a “six-year contract for $42 million, with $23 million over the first three years and $20 million of the total contract guaranteed.”

            Continue reading on Examiner.com: Cleveland Browns: Shaun Rogers asks to be a free agent? – Cleveland Sports | Examiner.com http://www.examiner.com/sports-in-cleveland/cleveland-browns-shaun-rogers-asks-to-be-a-free-agent#ixzz1E69uvIkg

    • Anonymous

      fair theory, because otherwise Heckert is a total unprofessional joke.

      • Anonymous

        I’m with Titus. It’s extremely unlikely that a veteran old-media guy like Grossi would print off-the-record statements.

    • http://www.redright88.com Titus Pullo

      Eh … highly unlikely that Grossi would print something that was clearly off the record. He’s been doing this too long to not know better.

      I know Frownie’s disciples want to paint Grossi as Darth Vader looking to destroy the Browns with his Death Star, but I don’t think he’s unethical. A bit sloppy perhaps, and most likely has spent too long on the Browns beat, but not unethical.

      I don’t know Grossi personally, but I interned in the PD sports department the summer he was suspended off the Browns beat (1990? Lord, that was so long ago) after the assistant sports editor put a quote in one of Grossi’s stories without his knowledge. When it hit the fan Grossi took the fall and I know it hurt him, so I think he does try to do the right thing.

      But that was a long time ago and people can change, become bitter and jaded. I know covering the team when Belichick was coach was a huge pain to Grossi and Ed Meyer, who covered the Browns at the time for the ABJ (I also worked part-time there during college) and maybe that scarred him so much that he never recovered.

      In any event, I found Heckert’s comments refreshing. As a fan, I want to know why the Browns are doing what they are doing and he came out with some actual answers. Would it be nice if Mangini were there to defend himself? Sure, but that’s not the way it worked out.

      And just because Heckert’s comments paint Mangini is a less than positive light doesn’t mean what he said isn’t true.

      • Biki

        I’d have to agree that Grossi is a bit jaded due to the Browns misery in a majority of his time as a beat writer, i think only like 7 winnings seasons out of 27… But still, the PD editors have to take some of the responsiblity as well, they should be able to get him to spin things positively instead of negatively. But as Frownie points out, maybe they feel that negativity/controversy sells more papers, which is understandable, it is a business afterall, and as consumers, particularly in the digital media age, we can choose to get our content elsewhere, which I think a lot of Browns fans these days do.

        • http://www.redright88.com Titus Pullo

          But it’s not a newspaper’s job to put a positive spin on things; the job is to report the news. But they also shouldn’t intentionally paint something in a negative light (think the Cleveland Clinic, the Medical Mart project) or overlook stories that paint the region in a positive light (such as the nearly $1 billion poured into bioscience companies in the region over the past seven years, you don’t read much about that).

          I know people believe controversy sells and that may be true in some areas, but at least in NE Ohio the PD and the Beacon sell far more papers when the Browns/Cavs/Indians are winning than when they are losing.

          • Biki

            agreed. so do you feel that since the Browns haven’t been winning, Grossi may be letting his frustrations get the better of him with the fact that more papers aren’t selling? wouldn’t that be considered unprofessional?

          • http://www.redright88.com Titus Pullo

            I would say that’s fair; as much as journalist like to talk about how impartial they are, and the PD goes out of its way to talk about itself and how wonderful it is (see Ted Diadum’s weekly column), they are still people. It’s probable that Grossi is frustrated and that comes through in his writing, whether intentional or not.

            I would say it’s more reality than unprofessional, but that’s just semantics. I get what you’re saying.

          • Biki

            i mean i definitely sympathize with Grossi, as I grew up reading him, and am just as frustrated about the Browns failures as the next guy. Hopefully this new regime can get some wins for him to write about!

          • Anonymous

            “In any event, I found Heckert’s comments refreshing. As a fan, I want to know why the Browns are doing what they are doing and he came out with some actual answers.”

            You find it refreshing that Heckert would ignore plain facts to publicly fit a veteran cornerback with the goat horns for the mistakes of the rookies he drafted?

            Or are you more refreshed that he’d let the next Dwight Freeney escape in free agency while putting the rest of the league on high alert of this future star’s availability?

            Or is it the bold “damn the facts, Eric’s gone now, so eff that guy” approach that excites you?

          • http://www.redright88.com Titus Pullo

            Yes.

            Heckert said Wright had a bad year; that’s not a state secret nor is it putting “goat horns” on anyone. He was saying the team was confident enough that the level of play from Brown, Haden and Wright would be sufficient enough that they could devote a roster spot to another area that was weaker (more wide receivers who never played).

            Yes.

            I think it’s odd that, with the injuries along the defensive line and the lack of production, that someone the team considered its best pass rusher, which I assume they determined from watching him in practice every week, could not get on the field for even one snap. I think the Browns would have been OK if Brian Schaefering would have been given a play off.

            And I believe I covered the Mangini angle in the original post.

          • Anonymous

            Heckert ignored plain and relevant facts to publicly make a sweeping and starkly negative conclusion about Wright’s performance. Noted that it doesn’t bother you, and that you’re so willing to believe that the guy who’d never played a down in a 3-4 and who the Vikings threw away for a seventh round pick could possibly be “by far the Browns’ best pass rusher” with some unquestionable right to playing time in Mangini’s 3-4 scheme. Was just checking.

          • http://www.redright88.com Titus Pullo

            One’ man’s sweeping and starkly negative conclusion is another man’s reality.

            Wright had a bad season, I really don’t see where that’s debatable.

            Heckert was saying that the team was comfortable carrying only 3 cornerbacks because of the expected level of play from those 3. But it didn’t work out that way.

            When you go into this with a preconceived bias, you draw conclusions based on that bias rather than what is written.

            I never said Mitchell did not have to earn playing time. I was only reacting to what Heckert said, which was 1 play, that’s all. We couldn’t have seen him for even 1 play during the season? Seriously?

          • Anonymous

            “Wright had a bad season, I really don’t see where that’s debatable.”

            It’s debatable for the several compelling reasons discussed in detail in this post.

            “We couldn’t have seen him for even 1 play during the season? Seriously?”

            Seriously! Again, for several compelling reasons, again discussed in detail here.

            Also, Heckert didn’t just say “1 play.” He said Wright was “by far the best pass rusher on the team.”

            Curious that you’d find it “refreshing” for the leader of the Browns to ignore obviously pertinent facts in making these statements, but it’s a free country.

          • http://twitter.com/Legacy_Fan Legacy Fan

            Speaking of pass-rushers never seeing a down – David Veikune anyone? And he cost a 2nd. Oops.

          • Anonymous

            I’m surprised Heckert didn’t tell Grossi that Veikune was the best quarterback on the roster.

          • http://www.redright88.com Titus Pullo

            They’re not facts, they are just opinions.

            Fact: the Browns were 10-22 under Eric Mangini

            Opinion: everything in this post.

            But that’s cool.

            And with that, I will wish you “A Good Derp, sir!”

          • Terry O.

            The team’s “best pass rusher” was Marcus Bernard. He WAS the nickel package pass rusher. Their is pretty good evidence for this.
            Per Pro football Focus:
            “Benard really thrived in 2010, and was quietly one of the league’s most productive pass rushers. He had 34 combined pressures in just 255 snaps, a rate of 1 in 7.5 rushes — almost identical to Clay Matthews’ ratio of one per 7.53 rushes. Benard could be next year’s Cameron Wake if the Browns decide to play him full time.”
            See: http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2011/02/10/2010-movers-and-fallers-afc-north/

            He’ll probably fill that roll again in 2011.

            There is zero evidence that Mitchell was the team’s “best pass rusher”.

            I think Heckert must have been referring to some alternate universe that only he has experienced.

          • http://www.redright88.com Titus Pullo

            That’s why Heckert is a working GM in the NFL and we’re debating in a virtual barroom on a sports blog.

            But you’re right. Heckert has no knowledge of the personnel on the team and should not be offering his opinion on matters pertaining to the team he works for.

          • Anonymous

            “In Heckert we trust. In Holmgren we trust. Jayme Mitchell, where have you gone!? Pass the phenobarbitol.”

          • Terry O.

            I’m open to any actual evidence (other than Heckert’s say so) that Mitchell was the team’s “best pass rusher”. Evidently Heckert doesn’t even believe it as he let Mitchell become a free agent.

          • Anonymous

            How dare you besmirch the name of The Great Jayme Mitchell!?

          • actovegin1armstrong

            Who?

          • Anonymous

            That’s probably the last we’ll ever hear of Mr. Armstrong. That lightning bolt must have been a real bitch.

            R.I.P., old man. You were a good man. We’ll miss you.

          • Bandit

            Right. Lets also not forget Scott Fugita who was beginning to setttle in both at calling the D plays and the pass rush. Clearly the pass rush in the Browns defense was all about linebackers and corners thus it is odd to hear the GM talk about a lineman as a pass rushing theat in the Browns scheme.

          • Terry O.

            “Clearly the pass rush in the Browns defense was all about linebackers and corners”

            That’s the way it is with the 3-4. The pressure comes from those 2 positions (OLB, corner) and also safety.

            3-4 DE’s are more like 4-3 DT’s in technique & responsibility.

          • Bandit

            Yeah now we just need the GM to understand that when he questions why the best pass rusher ( a tweener DE in a 4/3) did not play a down for the Browns.

  • Brian Sipe

    Great one Frownie… I agree 100% about Ward… I am sick adn tired of hearign how this draft is LEGEND… as far as i can see Haden is a stud in the making, Ward is avg at Safety, Lauvo is a project Hardesty…? Colt? and no one else really made the team….

    they love to rip Mangini’s drafy which was not so hot, but his round two got us Mo Mass and Robo… did they do any worse than Lauvao and Hardesty?

    Grossi and the Browns brass are laying the ground work in case ’11 is bad so they can play the balme game and claim that ’09 draft set us bck 37 years

    • Biki

      Ward is average at safety??? Why is he less “a stud in the making” than Haden?? Because Haden had more INTs? Ward started all 16 games and led the team in tackles and had a couple picks as well. Sure there were growing pains, as there always is with rookies, but there is nothing in how Ward plays that does not make most Browns fans excited about his future.

      • Anonymous

        “Why is he less “a stud in the making” than Haden??”

        Because Haden’s much better at covering guys who are running down the field trying to catch passes.

        Anyway, the point’s not to say Ward won’t be good. It’s just that he was obviously a rookie safety who had problems in coverage that Wright systematically took the goat horns for.

        • Biki

          “Because Haden’s much better at covering guys who are running down the field trying to catch passes.”

          That’s why Haden is a CB and Ward is a Safety. Two entire different roles and responsibilities. Can Haden hit and tackle the same way Ward can?? BTW, Ward was tied for 8th in the league in pass deflections with 10. Not bad for the kid.

          • Anonymous

            Last I checked it’s just as important that safeties cover pass catchers as it is that cornerbacks do. It’s also probably easier to deflect more passes when more of them are thrown in your direction. Anyway, you keep missing the point about Wright.

          • Biki

            what point am i missing about Wright??? My post have to do with Sipe calling Ward just “average”, he is trying to downplay how well the kid played for a rookie in such an important position and i’m excited about his future.

            Did he play a role in making Eazy-E look bad at times, absolutely, same with the dlineman who probably plays as much or more of a role in making Eric look bad than Ward. But I think everyone, including Wright was expecting much more from him, even in the one-on-one situations that his HC/DC and teammates put him in. And that’s all Heckert said. Who knows, maybe there was more to the conversation that Grossi included in the article and he did mention the other variables you are discussing.

            Either way, I’m hopeful Wright is back next year, he is still only going into his 4th year and should continue to grow under Jauron and Co.

          • Anonymous

            >>>Last I checked it’s just as important that safeties cover pass catchers as it is that cornerbacks do.>>>

            I don’t know about “cover pass catchers,” these really are two different positions. But it’s true they need to be in position and maybe gamble a little less. It’s also true that the guy clearly played above his draft position.

          • Anonymous

            Actually I think Haden almost can hit and tackle as well as Ward. But Haden is a total freak I think. I do like ward a lot.

      • Brian Sipe

        I am not saying Ward “can’t be good” I am saying there is no one aroudn the league talking about him like he is Reed or Troy… He is an avg safety… I find it funny how many people are saying to dump Abe on the PD site… I don’t think Ward is any better than Abe… I am also stunned how many think Sheldon Brown is good.. the guy got toasted all year…

        • Biki

          OMG, you want comparisons to Reed or Troy who may go down as 2 of the best safeties to EVER play the game??? wow, such lofty expectations you have for 2nd round rookies who come out after their junior years and started 16 NFL games as a rookie, leading his team in tackles.

          As far as Abe, I’m sure they are looking at the free agent landscape and seeing who fits the best. Maybe they bring Abe back or they look to get faster and younger.

          But TJ and Haden are definitely two core guys to the secondary that we hopefully won’t have to worry about for the next 5-7 years. That is pretty good to get accomplished with 2 picks of last year’s draft.

          • Anonymous

            There’s a TJ Ward fan in the room! “Like button like button TJ! TJ!”

          • Biki

            oh yeah, I forgot to mention I may have a mancrush on him because I met him at Barley House over the summer priot to training camp and he was excited someone knew who he was and said that he’d bust his tail and make us proud that the Browns drafted him.

  • Anonymous

    I think they’re all racist.

  • NW Ohio Brownie

    Let’s also not forget that Harrison was putting the ball on the ground a lot in the preseason and had a fumble against KC early that hurt the team. Add to that, he was going through the motions and being pouty. That combination put the gas in his car to Philly.

    I know Hillis was prone to fumbling this year, but his locker room and on-field demeanor can’t be questioned, unlike Harrison.

    I thought Mangini’s biggest mistake in all of this was to sack James Davis when he did. After Hardesty’s injury, that should have been a given. Then if Davis sucks, he sucks, but Hillis was out of gas after game 12 or so. But that’s not Grossi’s M.O. to debate the debatable. His M.O. is to commit character assassination on anybody and everybody who doesn’t acknowledge him as the most powerful and omniscient being in and around Berea.

  • Bandit

    Frowns your just making too much sense. Lets not forget that TJ Ward dropped off dramatically from the first half of the season after EW got hurt. Hell if your going to hang out a corner back, what about Sheldon: Opps forgot he came from Philly

  • Anonymous

    And I’m sorry, but as someone who defended Wright the whole year, I think it’s getting ridiculous when you suggest he didn’t have a bad year. Were there mitigating factors for him giving up so many touchdowns? Yes. Was his bad performance blown WAY out of proportion? Yes. That doesn’t change the fact that he didn’t play well. He quit on a bunch of plays, he tackled abysmally, he just didn’t look good, he knew it. Watch again.

    Now I was pretty sure we were going to get this “Harrison and Mitchell suck anyway, so who cares if the left hand didn’t know what the right hand was doing with regards to them,” but not in such stark terms. You want to think about that some more? You want to think about what it means that Heckert simply doesn’t know why Mitchell wasn’t used? Not even that they disagreed, which is what you’d say if you were trying to cast blame. That he doesn’t know. Is he lying?

    This is an indicator. In my mind it almost validates the decision to unify the team approach all by itself. That’s why it matters. Who’s right and who’s wrong and who is blaming who really means less than nothing. The point, without finding fault on either side, is that the relationship wasn’t functioning correctly, and there were disagreements on personnel that were apparently not even discussed.

    This thing isn’t fading at all, it’s growning like a snowball rolling downhill. You guys seem to be gunning harder and harder at Holmgren and now Heckert, who are liars, weasels, unfair, cowardly, losers… slightly worse than Horsefish (?!?!) all on the basis of your conjectures about their secret motives to undermine and smear St. Mangini. Nevermind their track records, never mind that the whole thing makes sense once you jettison certain assumptions about an unproven coach. Nevermind anything. Now Wright had a good year. Now the d-line was really effective. Now it doesn’t matter whether we threw a 7th round pick in the toilet or not. Now Ward is not that great a pick because he was out of position several times and hasn’t surpassed Polamolu. The one thread that holds it all together, the thing that instantly transforms two of the more respected football men in the NFL, who universally get an A on their first draft, into losers and weasels? That sweet golden thread. Mangini. He was the savior, but we crucified him, he hath ascended, and now it’s just all back downhill to the confederacy of dunces. Your narrative is an easy one to write. We’ll see if it bears any resemblance to reality.

    You know my bias. The savior for this team or any team is getting some talent to work with. The rest is important but comparatively easy, a point I believe is proven over and over when you look at the lineup of conference championships and superbowls, a group that includes those insanely deluded Jets after making their fatefull blunder. So far, H&H’s record on this most important of fronts is better than Mangini’s, or anyone we have had probably since we’ve been back. Even with a couple boners. So while I find this whole thing a downer, I’m looking forward to all of it’s sound and fury being proven to signify nothing, because I truly don’t think you will be able to sustain this level of frowniness when the team gets better instead of worse next year, without St. Mangini.

    • Biki

      BIG UPS for bupalos!!

      • Anonymous

        Well, you made Biki’s day, so that’s something.

    • Anonymous

      1.) I sure as hell hope I don’t have to sustain this level of Frowniness next year. I’m pulling as hard as the next guy is for the “Holmgren and Heckert as Nixon Administration” narrative to play out.

      2.) The Jets haven’t won a Super Bowl or even a conference championship, even though they probably should have, so you really shouldn’t have brought them up.

      3.) You agree that Wright’s “bad” performance in 2010 was “blown WAY out of proportion.” So why shouldn’t it bother us when our GM makes statements that play right to the popular misconception? Why are we wrong to want a GM to do the opposite in such a situation?

      4.) Your absurd attempts to make a case out of The Jayme Mitchell Affair are becoming increasingly absurd. It’s hard for me to believe that Heckert doesn’t “know” or why he’d even have to “know” why a guy who’d never played in a 4-3 who was available mid-season for a seventh round pick wouldn’t have gotten any playing time in Mangini’s 3-4. “Is he lying”? Technically, probably, but disingenuous is probably more fair. This isn’t hard at all.

      Look, bup, your efforts to remain positive are admirable, but you go off base when you suggest that we’re being unreasonable in assuming a posture of skepticism here.

      An assumption is only unwarranted if there’s an obviously better one to take its place. For us to abandon our current position, we have to look past the following, among other things:

      1) That this football team was obviously improving under Mangini (you can argue about how much they were improved, but you simply can’t say it wasn’t, which already says a lot, even if you want to ignore things like the absurd QB situation, the fact that the ragtag bunch dramatically improved as the year progressed, culminating in the shocking run against the Saints/Patriots/Jets, before petering out when several key injuries took their toll on a dangerously thin roster);

      2) That Mangini was improving himself, at least in dealing with both players and the media; and it looked like he was taking better care of himself physically as well;

      3) That basic human nature dictates that unchecked power tends to be abused;

      4) That it was the easiest thing for Holmgren to keep Mangini for 2010, for various obvious reasons;

      5) The illogic of Holmgren’s stated explanation for firing the Coach: The plain statement that Mangini “didn’t win enough” with this group, when it’s plain enough that no head coach would have been expected to have done more with this roster.

      6) And that against the backdrop of Holmgren’s comments in early 2010 that the media made too much of supposed philosophical differences.

      7) And that despite the presumption against firing a guy who’s making obvious progress at a difficult job, Holmgren has shown little to no ability (made little to no effort) to excuse the organization from that presumption. He just says “they didn’t win enough.”

      Maybe there are good reasons for all of these things that will eventually be borne out, but taken together, these are some of the main reasons why many of us here have assumed a position of distrust toward the new regime, now compounded by Heckert’s recent comments. This “unified top down approach” you keep speaking of isn’t enough for us to get over all this just yet. Not even when you add in two bad decisions to kick field goals, and the strange mystery of future star Jayme Mitchell and the lost seventh round pick.

      (I posted the “assumption” part late today in an earlier thread, but it goes just as well here.)

      • Biki

        Frownie, you yourself ripped on Wright throughout the season, even though you also assigned blame to the other guys on defense. it is a team effort and he bore the brunt butt of the ridicule, but on the other hand, there are DB’s in the league who make plays even when their teammates let them down, and Wright has mae those types of plays in the past. for some reason Eazy-E wasn’t able to make them this year, consistently at least. let’s look at his stats the last few years:

        2010: 42 tackles, 1 pick, 9 PD’s in 13 games, for a projected: 52 tackles, 1.23 INTS, and 11PDs
        2009: 65, 4, and 14
        2008: 66, 3, and 13, with 2 FF’s
        2007: 76, 1, and 11

        So while of course there are variables at play, I don’t think talent level on the Browns defense has been all that spectacular or even above average during Eric’s tenure with the Browns and while he made progressions in his first 3 seasons, it appeared he regressed back to numbers well below even his rookie season.

        Now whether Heckert needed to say it publicly, i have no problem with it, it is what it is, Eric will be the first to say he had a tough go at it this year for whatever reason. i hope they resign him and this is water under the bridge, or maybe it will spark a fire under Wright, who has had comeback after comeback over the years, dating back to his USC drama. i think he’ll contribue very well for someone next year, hopefully it will be for the Brownies.

        • Anonymous

          Not that any of what you wrote here is responsive to the points I’ve made in this post, but it’s plainly false to say I “ripped on Wright throughout the season.” Cleveland Frowns was probably the first publication anywhere to consistently make the point that Wright was being scapegoated for the performance of his teammates in the secondary. I was hard on him after the first Ravens game, but you should go back and look at what I wrote about him after the Bengals game in Week 4 when everyone else wanted to run him out of town. http://www.clevelandfrowns.com/2010/10/browns-beat-the-bengals-and-the-fourth-quarter-blues/

          Then see what I wrote consistently after that.

          And stop lying.

          Also, stop making nonsensical reference to stats. The Browns defense was better this year than it had been in each of the previous years, so everyone’s going to have fewer tackles. Wright missed about 25% of this season due to injury, and cornerbacks have fewer tackles and interceptions when teams don’t target them, which is a good thing.

          Finally, if I was a pro in Wright’s position, I’d publicly acknowledge it was a tough year too. I wouldn’t through my little bros under the bus.

          • Anonymous

            Just checked. Wright didn’t miss a single game in his first three years. Good stats.

          • Biki

            what are you in the minds of Wright too?? So you’re in the heads of Mangini, Heckert, Holmgren and now Wright. wow. with that sort of insight you think you would fare better in sports wagering! LOL

            fine, you only ripped on Wright publicly one time this season, my bad. my point is that i think most people would agree that this was a down year for Eric Wright, i mean, come on dude. we all know that he is a better player than he demonstrated and like i said, i hope the Browns bring him back because if he could get back to 2009 Eric Wright, we would have a pretty slick secondary.

      • Anonymous

        Let me clarify my position on Mitchell. I don’t say he’s some doomsday mistake. I’m not saying I know how it came to pass or who’s mistake it was or even that it was a mistake. All I am saying is that the GM, according to him, didn’t understand why he sat idle. Now you say you do know why, and that you know heckert knows why too and is lying. That seems to be a lot to know when you don’t know what conversation or lack of conversation they had in acquiring him. Its all those things you know that make my stance “absurd.” Once you explain how you know them, maybe I’ll agree.

        To the points. Set 1:

        1. Suffice to say I think that since your “best case scenario” is holmgren as Nixon, your stance right now is somewhat beyond informed skepticism. You KNOW the guys a manipulative dishonest weasely schemer. You hope he’s not totally incompetent. Really?
        2. They got to the final 4. Pretty nice recovery for a team that made the biggest coaching decision blunder in the history of the world two years ago.
        3. Eric wright played way below expectations and heckert said exactly that. I just can’t find the beef here. And Ward played above expectations and looks like a real nice pick.
        4. Above. You know there was no disconnect here and explained that the acquisition was for emergency depth and that h&m both agreed at the time but now h is lying. You know that. Somehow.

        Jebus … its past 2. I won’t run down the second set of points now. I do think that more than 1 of those are based on the maximalist view of coaching in general and mangini in particular, and while we’re never going to agree on that, I don’t find it so much absurd as unlikely.

        • Anonymous

          “All I am saying is that the GM, according to him, didn’t understand why he sat idle. Now you say you do know why, and that you know heckert knows why too and is lying. That seems to be a lot to know when you don’t know what conversation or lack of conversation they had in acquiring him. Its all those things you know that make my stance “absurd.” Once you explain how you know them, maybe I’ll agree.”

          How I know why Mitchell sat idle (or, more accurately, know that it’s strange for Heckert to have made it an issue in his interview with Grossi): 1) The Vikings scrapped him for a seventh round pick; 2) He’d never played in a 3-4 before; 3) “He doesn’t have a body that would ever fit that scheme; 4) The Browns needed warm bodies along the defensive line; 5) It’s not at all uncommon seventh round picks and guys who are available for seventh round picks to not get playing time.

          Not sure why I have to keep repeating myself or why you continue to insist on making this into some mystery, but again, I admire your effort to stay positive. The rest here is nonresponsive, too. Especially the failure to account for the fact that the foundation Mangini built in New York in his three seasons with the Jets was strong enough that Rex Ryan wasn’t going to be able to completely wreck it in a short two. No blogging after midnight, bup.

          • Anonymous

            1) The vikings got a pick for a few games rental of a one down specialist. You don’t giveaway picks for warm bodies with expiring contracts. Warm bodies are on the practice squad and waivers. Did Mangini request this particular player, or not?

            2) Nearly irrelevant for a 3rd down pass rusher. Again, did Mangini want him or not? He wanted a warm body to displace practice quad players and sit as general DL depth, but preferred someone who would cost a pick and need transitional training in the middle of the year?

            3) See 2.

            4) See 1.

            5) It’s VERY uncommon to give anything at all for a mid-season, last year contract (in a rebuilding year) and then not play him a single snap. Find me one.

            And please don’t resort to the “it’s not a big deal because 7th round picks don’t mean anything and Mitchell stinks anyway.” That’s just not the question. It’s whether Mangini and Heckert were…wait for it… on the same page. You say they clearly and obviously were, and now Heckert is clearly and obviously lying, not to make himself look better especially (since I don’t think anyone reads this as saying Mitchell was the difference between success and failure), but just to make Mangini look worse. I say that’s a step beyond skepticism. You’re gunning.

            >>>….the foundation Mangini built in New York in his three seasons with the Jets was strong enough that Rex Ryan wasn’t going to be able to completely wreck it in a short two. >>>

            Yeah, he only partially wrecked it, which I guess is what you call going from missing the playoffs to one score from the superbowl.

            Which part does Mangini get credit for from 2010 NY? The roster? Well, they’ve turned over more than half of it, with a sizeable chunk (“his guys”) coming here to help round out what you seem to think was one of the worst rosters in of the modern era, and a couple of the kind of guys he wouldn’t touch with a 10 foot pole going there. Why didn’t that completely wreck it?

            The culture? Somehow I think the small portion of what didn’t evaporate before his seat was cold, the Ryan Express steamrolled in about 30 seconds. And the flattened detritus of which was shipped to Cleveland. Why didn’t that wreck it?

            Getting the players to give their best? What impact players there played better under Mangini? With apologies to the first half of the AFC game, why didn’t that completely wreck it?

            Let’s turn it around. Was Mangini’s 10-6 season the product of the fantastic base put in place by Herm Edwards? You see what you are doing here?

            The Jets have changed RADICALLY since he left, and improved since he left. Even if that team isn’t to everyone’s taste and plays kind of schizo, they are right there at the very top of the league. I don’t think you can dispute that and that’s not a slam on Mangini. Every situation and group of players is different, and Ryan fits those guys better. Mangini has his great points, but I do think he’s a little more of a guy who says “this is the system and process, if you all learn it and fill roles in my system correctly, we will win,” rather than a guy who says “this is the talent, these are their strengths and weaknesses, how do I craft a system and process that lets them be their best.” I retain my doubts about whether his basic idea that everything must be controlled and conform to his pre-existing plans and processes won’t continue to haunt him his whole NFL career.

            It’s a Sparta-Athens thing. Either one can win, the former is probably better for low and marginal talent and the latter better for exceptional talent.

          • Anonymous

            Theoretically you don’t trade for warm bodies mid-season but injuries forced the Browns’ hand. They needed a warm body (doesn’t matter who “asked for it,” it’s good that someone did (maybe they were “on the same page”!!!)), and Mitchell was the best one available for the price. Good enough to be an emergency stopgap, not good enough to see the field. Can we get a deal with the Health Channel to broadcast the nine-hour rocket surgery you’ve done on this one? I’ll split it with you.

            As for this:

            “Which part does Mangini get credit for from 2010 NY? . . . They’ve turned over more than half of [the roster].”

            He gets credit for the foundation part. You know, the guys who Ryan kept, but still couldn’t win with even after two more full seasons of adding pricey free agents on top. Agreed that the Jets have RADICALLY changed. Our doubt goes to whether that change has been for the better. We’ll see when the Jets lose in the Divisional Round next year, then miss the playoffs the year after that. It’s enough to make us feel bad for at least some Jets fans.

          • Biki

            Cleveland Browns fans should feel bad for Jets fans??? LOL I’m a fan of both, although moreso a Browns fan, but I can say that until the Browns get to .500, let alone win a playoff game, let alone win 4 playoff games in 2 years, i am not going to feel bad for Jets fans.

          • Anonymous

            >>>Can we get a deal with the Health Channel to broadcast the nine-hour rocket surgery you’ve done on this one? I’ll split it with you. >>>

            I think we can do it in 20 seconds:
            GM got player he expected to play. Coach didn’t play him. Some say no disconnect because GM is lying about those expectations. Some say could show trouble.

            >>>Agreed that the Jets have RADICALLY changed. Our doubt goes to whether that change has been for the better. >>>

            Doubt noted, higher payroll noted, but reality of better performance in post-Mangini years noted too. Let’s just say it’s not cut and dried, and your maximal view of coaching and Mangini has not YET been bourn out by the NY experience. Again, we’ll see.

          • Anonymous

            FAIR. We’re gonna be rich!

          • Anonymous

            Also, your skillful avoidance of the main issue is skillful, and noted.

          • Anonymous

            I’m not seeing it. You mean that Heckert should have worded it differently to protect people? If so, I can agree with that. I think the interview was not skillful and I don’t like it much. I just think it goes to far to assume he’s a liar and smearing Mangini. You can read it much more innocently, and much more in line with something you simply will not grant as a possibility: That there were communication disconnects and people not on the same page. That doesn’t have to reflect poorly on Mangini, but I think you can’t allow it because it creates a crack in the theory that there was no good reason to go in another direction, that Mangini may be a good man and a good coach, but that Holmgren might be too, and that they Browns may be better off with one or the other but not both.

          • Anonymous

            You’re overstating my position. I’m not saying there couldn’t have been a legitimate communication breakdown. I’m just saying that any such “breakdown” is so insignificant as to make it absurd for Heckert to say what he said, him having said what he said revealing that these guys are cognizant, even if only subconsciously, of the job they worked on Mangini or for whatever reason don’t have their heads on straight.

            It’s plenty to justify the commentary here.

        • Anonymous

          Again, why wasn’t Heckert’s answer to Grossi here something like: “Shoot, Tony, with Kenyon [Coleman], Shaun [Rogers] and Robaire [Smith] all over the injury reports those first four weeks, we knew we were going to have to add some depth along the defensive line. Problem was, there wasn’t a whole heck of a lot out there. We all agreed that even though Mitchell had never played in a 3-4 and doesn’t really have the body type for it, we needed warm bodies and he looked decent enough for a seventh round pick, so we went for it. Sometimes guys have a hard time adjusting to a new system, especially with the complex schemes that Eric runs, but whatever Mitchell didn’t give us in games, he was at least at practice every day, and was available for game duty had the injuries along the defensive line gotten worse. Really no “mystery” (finger quotes) here, Tony. Sometimes you pick up a guy for a seventh-round pick and he doesn’t turn out to be an All-Star. It’s just life in the Big Boy’s League. Hurr, hurr.”

          What’s not true there and what’s the reason for not saying something like that in response to Grossi?

    • Bandit

      First you must have read some new interpretation of the 2010 draft, which at best has the Browns B+ on one account and B on most others. More importantly is this incredible blind faith in MH because he coached a super bowl winner in Green Bay how many years ago. Yet we forget he was fired as GM in Seattle. At least Mangini made every effort to reinvent himself before age 40. With MH; still the dictator that got fired from the GM job in Seattle. As far as Heckart, it is a simple matter of learning to play the game that should have been instilled a long time ago – you do not slam teammates or disposed personnel in the media. Perhaps he was scouting players the day that lesson was taught, but more than anything this smacks of some self righteous regime that thinks they do no wrong, and also means they fail to learn from their mistakes.

  • cranky m

    Is it not possible to start some kind of petition to get Grossi fired? i’m being dead serious here. He has zero credibility, his primary goal seems to be to bash the team while making himself sound smarter than any front office staff, he has a horrible attitude…i dont think we should stand for his nonsense anymore. I truly believe we should organize some sort of anti-Grossi movement. Somebody please tell me they agree.

    • cranky m

      cool. thanks for the feedback, everybody

      • Anonymous

        ???

        “i dont think we should stand for his nonsense anymore. I truly believe we should organize some sort of anti-Grossi movement. Somebody please tell me they agree.”

        Who doesn’t agree with that? Who’s standing for his nonsense? We might not be organized, but if we’re not an anti-Grossi movement here at Frowns, I don’t know what we are.

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