Learning and Lynching with Alex Mack (Not Trying to Be Embarrassed in Front of Any Cornerbacks)

by Cleveland Frowns on September 21, 2011

Browns third-year center Alex Mack got a lot of press yesterday for saying, as the Plain Dealer’s Mary Kay Cabot puts it, that “[Browns] players felt humiliated under [former head coach Eric] Mangini’s watch by having their mistakes pointed out in front of the whole squad, instead of in smaller position meetings.”

Mangini made the Browns watch game film in front of the whole squad, you guys. Just try and think for a minute about how humiliating that must have been.

"Sometimes when I feel like the whole world is against me I like to just lay down and feel the wet grass on my skin."

Jeff Schudel has the full scoop at the News Herald:

Alex Mack says [film review sessions] under Coach Pat Shurmur are much different than they were under former coach Eric Mangini.

For one thing, Shurmur has instructed his assistants to review the game with the segment of the team each coaches. George Warhop meets with the offensive linemen, Mark Whipple meets with the quarterbacks, Jerome Henderson meets with the defensive backs, etc.

Mangini preferred to gather the team as a whole for the review. It is a method that works well for Patriots coach Bill Belichick — Mangini’s former mentor.

No way. Well, Bill Belichick is Bill Belichick, and he’s a genius. Obviously not everybody can get away with employing such oppressive tactics. How could Mangini not have known that? How could anyone not know that?

Mack prefers the Shurmur method. There is a lot less tension, he says.

“It’s not acceptable to make mistakes (under Shurmur), but it’s — tolerable is the wrong word — a learning experience more than a lynching experience,” Mack said Monday. “We had a lot of team corrections (the last two years). The theory behind it was as a team you’d see where people made mistakes and hold everyone accountable.

Accountability? As a team? A football team? Insane. What was it that Mangini thought he was trying to coach lynch, anyway? Lynching!

“On the same hand, other guys don’t know what you’re coached. If you keep it in your own meeting group and get it aired out, that’s better. Everyone knows you. But to have a DB get beat and have the coach yell at him — I don’t know how to cover anyone, and I don’t need to know. It’s hard for him to get embarrassed in front of the whole team. If it’s just your group of core guys, and they know how good the receiver is. It’s easier to bear.”

And thank god for that. Can you imagine what a drag it would be if these guys had to know any more than they already do about what happened on the football field they play on for a living, or if they had to know how well guys who play other positions were living up to their obligations to the team …  wait … think, what if #TEAMDBSWAG has VIP on lock at Barley, or if there’s a party up at JT’s lake house, all the post-game meals at Sushi Rock? The less you know about the rest, the better. Of course.

Mack said another advantage of spending more time with position coaches, as the Browns do now, is the coach can be more detailed when pointing out corrections.

Which sounds like a follow-up question that Mack said “yes” to. But when I was in high school, back in the 90s, we did both. We had a team film session shortly after the game, and throughout the week we’d have the position meetings where we’d focus on more detail. We had a lot less time in high school, presumably, than the Browns do for this kind of thing, so let’s assume Mangini’s Browns did both the position and full team sessions as well and forgive Schudel for leaving that distracting bit out of his story.

Soooo, when you ask less of an NFL football team, the players will like you better for it. At least at the beginning. As long as you can squeak by the crumbling Colts. Alright.

—————

Relatedly, Nate Jackson, formerly of the Browns practice squad, writing at Deadspin.

[C]oaching philosophies are changing. Just look at the Dolphins. They’ve totally abandoned their running game in favor of some hybrid form of the Patriots offense. Brian Daboll is the offensive coordinator. He used to be a position coach in New England, and he was the OC in Cleveland when I was there for a week. How was Cleveland’s offense in 2009? It wasn’t surprising to see so much miscommunication and bad timing in their passing game. It was an irritatingly complicated offensive scheme that was lost on its players. The terminology had no rhyme or reason to it. It seemed to be a bunch of arbitrary numbers and words thrown together. The goal was to confuse the defense by doing a lot of shifts and motions, but the naming of all the groups, formations, and movements seemed to confuse only the offensive players. I was there late during training camp. The team had been practicing for five months, and no one could explain anything to me. Even the tight ends coach was lost. When figuring out where to line up is devouring all your time and energy, your team will likely suck.

But “irritatingly complicated” is just what many young offensive coordinators want these days.

And the 2009 Browns are conclusive proof of this.

It was instructive watching the imitation go up against the real thing on Monday. The Patriots, it seems, play by a whole different set of rules. Everything they do works. All their personnel clicks into place. They utilize two athletic tight-ends who can stretch the field down the middle. They use a slot receiver who can read defenses effectively. They have good receivers on the outside who can beat man coverage when it happens. And they have a quarterback who can make sense of all of it, digest it instantly, and tell everyone what to do. Couple this with an endless number of personnel groups and formations, and the ability to do it all without a huddle, effectively preventing the defense from making substitutions, and you have the model for passing-game efficiency in the NFL.

But those are the Patriots. No one does it better.

Of course, and no one should even try. Especially not guys who came up through the Patriots system. What could those guys be thinking? Not that they’d have any more than two seasons one season or a quarterback any better than Seneca Wallace to make it work, we hope.

Think less play faster think less play faster think less play faster Browns Browns Browns. See you guys at Barley.

  • Anonymous

    Good thing Mack never played for Lombardi or Paul Brown. He’d have to bring his mommy with him to every practice & film session to wipe away his tears of embarrassment.

  • Anonymous

    amazing that you led with this today.  check out this audio clip, start at the 2:00 min mark.  it’s jermaine wiggins, former pats tight end, describing the monday meetings where belichick’s weekly routine was the dreaded drill-down.  (HILARIOUS.)

    there’s all sorts of management styles and depending on how and where they’re used they can be effective.  i worked for EMC for ten years and they’re well-known to be a sales machine.  a quarterly staple in their sales offices was the district sales team account review.  in it, the reps are asks to show how they’re tracking against goal and review the deals in the pipeline and expected to have it covered from every angle.  usually there would be at least one rep, picked a random, who would get an old-school drill-down from a DM or VP.  the guy would be on his feet for 15 minutes answering ‘what’s the budget, are they funded, who’s the competition, who’s your sponsor, who’s the decision-maker, who’s the technology influencer, what solution is being addressed, is there a compelling event, why will they buy, why won’t they buy… etc.’  woe betide the rep who is not prepared.  it’s totally old-school but dammit, it’s truly effective and all reps were prepared.

    i do tire of athletes saying they ‘take full responsibilty’ for x, y, z.  what does that mean exactly?  

    i wasn’t a fan of many mangini techniques (eg, rookie bus trips to football camps in hartford).  but i can’t kill mangini for holding players accountable for their play in front of their peers.  there’s too much talk about being 

    • jhf44lk

      Hey have you ever seen Glen Gary Glennross? Alex Baldwin is brutal! Maybe Belchick is a better teacher the Mangini? Maybe there is more then one way to skin a cat. Mayyyybe the Browns will win more then 5 games!!!

      • Anonymous

        jhf44,
        I hope that I can at least get the steak knifes.

    • Anonymous

      JK,
      I go through that sales drill down all the time.  I am even harder on myself than any manager, so it is easy.  Could you imagine having the guys who build the EMC storage boxes, or the office manager in their making comments?  It would be an exercise in futility for everyone involved.
      “If they never carried a bag….”   You must know that sales adage.
      (By the way, we must have some mutual acquaintances.)

      I really liked Mangenius, but I am with Alex Mack on this one.
      I almost pounded our O-Coordinator in a team meeting/film session when he chastised my “free lancing” on a play where my decision to leave my guy to the safety resulted in an easy interception of a screen pass.
      Our terrific D-Coordinator saved his ass and sent me out of the room to “go pick something up in his office”.
      Why would you want some dim witted O-Coordinator and brain damaged O-linemen in on a film session when you are discussing complicated coverages?  It would be a royal waste of time.

      • Anonymous

        Last night, I was thinking about this second paragraph where you speak of your OC.   I was flipping channels and watching some of the Mizzou-OU game and the OU defense up by several scores, got a 3-and-out and headed to the sidelines were Tom Wort got his butt chewed out by Venables.   It wasn’t just a one-liner as he came off the field, either.   Venables followed him to the bench and chewed him out some more.   I was thinking to myself that the guy’s team is up by three scores…how badly could the kid have done?

        Yet another reason I don’t like OU ;-)

        • Anonymous

          rod,
          I saw that.
          How does that look to potential players?  I hope it hurts their recruiting.  
          What will his superiors have to say about that outburst for no reason?
          In my situation the OC had an absolute vendetta against me and I thought he was terrible.  
          (My HC and DC loved that I turned to the S Safety, signaled him to take my guy and went in to get the interception.  the other team tipped off the screen too easily.  How could the OC find fault with that play?)
          This OC was an idiot, he was demoted a few games later and booted at the end of the year.
          I am with you, OU sucks.

    • The Cuuuuuuuuuuugs

      I’ve always watched film with the teams I’ve coached and you need to know how to evaluate the film with them. I’ve always had four levels: Cheerleader (only positive things get pointed out), Fan (mostly positive, some group errors), Reality (mix of good and bad, overall game play), and Brutal Honesty (great plays praised highly, poor plays get reamed out – both plays get played in slow motion on repeat).

      Some teams and players say they want Brutal Honesty, but you know they aren’t ready for it. Sometimes, I’ll only do five minutes of Brutal Honesty, just to make a point for the ones I know are able to handle it, but those moments come on an “as need” basis. The majority of the time though, the players who are able to handle it, end up making the adjustment, because they are mentally strong enough to realize you don’t say it to be purposely mean to them… no coach wants to have bad footage they have to watch and then correct. But those players get that all you’re trying to do is help them raise their potential and their game to the highest attainable level.

      My hope would be that Alex Mack and all of the Cleveland Browns, losers to the Cincinnati Bengals and winners over the Peyton Manning-less Indianapolis Colts, would be able to watch some game film and not have a hissy fit over being “embarrassed.” You are getting paid millions of dollars – DEAL WITH IT!!! If you can’t deal with a little bit of public embarrassment, maybe you should fix the error in your game so you don’t get “made fun of.” Wow, what a great idea!

      Think about it… what if all of us decided to get together and throw a Frowns Tailgate (GREAT IDEA… NEEDS TO HAPPEN… nice thinking, Cuuuuuuuugs). Of course, we would need food, beverages, chairs, early parking, beverages, corn hole, paper products, beverages, etc. And of course, we would all divide up the listed items so we could go ahead and make the day happen. Now, I’m responding to Kanicki’s post, so I’ll target him as an example, but what if Kanicki forgot to bring the grill for us to cook on. What the hell would we be doing on this website the next day?

      Frownie Photo Caption Contest (A blank piece of blacktop): Here’s the spot where Kanicki’s grill should have been. Best caption wins a t-shirt and a free shot at Map Room.

      Titus: “But I thought Biki was bringing the grill…”
      vincethepolack: “Hot dogs taste better when they’re cooked.”
      cfkap: “And the winner of the Braylon Edwards Award for Most Likely to Drop the Ball goes to… Kanicki!”
      The Cuuuuuuuuuuuugs: “Hey, no one told me we were having a tailgate! Don’t you like me guys?”

      Let’s put it this way, when you suck, you suck, and you need to be told that you suck. If Alex Mack sucked, I’m glad Mangini told him that he sucked, because it’s obviously helped Mack get some press as a Pro Bowl-caliber center. Because I don’t want Alex Mack to suck when he needs to teach Phil Taylor how to be more effective or when he needs to protect Colt McCoy from Ngata.

      Unless he wants to Suck for Luck. If that’s the case, then disregard everything I just said.

      • Anonymous

        >>>>>If Alex Mack sucked, I’m glad Mangini told him that he sucked, because it’s obviously helped Mack get some press as a Pro Bowl-caliber center.>>>>>

        reading between the lines:  mack must have absolutely have had his ASS handed to him at the start of his rookie year when his shotgun snaps consistently sucked.  i know i was hating him for it at the time (as well as kokinos for drafting a crappy center who seemed to have never played in a shotgun set).  and i know it improved.  cause/effect?

      • Anonymous

        To add to the above caption contest Biki: “Who says you even have to have a grill?  You could take a cardboard box and some aluminum foil and make a solar oven.  Or we could cook on the engine block of the car.  Grills suck anyway. We could walk around the parking lot and find a million things that are better to cook on than a grill.  I’ll set the o/u at 10.  I’m taking the over.  Who wants in on the action?”

        • http://twitter.com/cpmack Chris M

          May I suggest a correction?

          Biki: “I bet you don’t even need a grill. Who wants some of that action? I got you covered all day.”

          • Anonymous

            You win.

          • Anonymous

            Keep hating on the Browns over play..

          • Anonymous

            And thank you Cleveland Indians for exceeding the public’s expectations.. hopefully your Browns brethren follow suit

          • Anonymous

            Um, do you guys want to do a tailgate in Muni this Sunday?

          • Anonymous

            I wish I could join the tailgate fun at Muni.
            I will walk across the street to my neighbor’s truck and tailgate by proxy.  
            Everyone has seen me wearing all of my Browns gear and this is a football neighborhood, they will understand.   
            Ricky William’s mother lives across the street and we have two famous coaches on this side.   I am going to drag my grill out into the street right now.  
            (Why did Ricky end up with The Grackles?  It is a shame.)

            Am I too early for this weeks picks?

            I will re-post if necessary.

            Browns -3  over the Dolphins    Because the ghost of Sam Rutigliano is stronger than the ghost of Don Shula. 

            Central Florida + 2.5  over BYU    Love CFU’s lock down, cover corner and speed on Defense

            Missouri +21  over Oklahoma     Ok’s air game goes awry when “the wind comes sweeping down the plain”

            Florida International – 17  over Louisiana-Lafayette    More of that speed stuff and a Heisman quality pass catcher.  Injury Schminjury, T.Y. Wish I Was a Hilton will play.

            Ohio – 4.5  over Rutgers     Am I missing something?  Why does this point spread seem so far off?

            Boise State -28.5  over Tulsa         I heard a rumor that Boise can score some points.  ****Bonus/essay pick****Boise can score with Tulsa and the “hurry up” offense Tulsa employs is losing its advantage because ALL of the cool kids are doing it.   Tulsa also lost their Left Tackle, please do not let this fact blind side you, but a Left Tackle can be considered important.  Perhaps even more important when Tulsa has a QB with a bad wheel who throws with his right arm.  Protecting the passer may be of paramount importance because it is likely that Freshman back-up Kalen Henderson will start and while he has a strong arm, he looks like he is about 5’9″ tall.   You can bet your Flutie that he may still be terrific, but it will not be easy if those Boise Tackles stand up the Tulsa Guards and push them straight back at the diminutive Freshman QB.  Boise will have their usual complement of blitz packages and I am certain a new wrinkle or two for the Freshman QB, or an injured G. J. Kinne if he makes a miraculous recovery and can play.

    • Anonymous
      • Anonymous

        i know it was for a good cause and all.  and were it held at a camp in NEO i wouldn’t have a problem with it.  

        but a ‘mandated’ 20 hour bus ride crosses the fuzzy line of hard-nosed but ‘professional’ management and hazing.  it showed a lack of respect for the individuals’ time, a lack of understanding of the importance of work/life balance.  respect being a two-way street, it couldn’t have helped the rookies’ build respect for their coach.  it likely had the opposite effect.  add in the the part where mangini didn’t ride the bus but flew out and you’re  on your way to having a manager who gets tuned out by his people.

        • http://twitter.com/cpmack Chris M

          OH MY GOD, A 20 HOUR BUS RIDE WHERE THE SOLE BENEFICIARIES ARE UNDERPRIVILEGED CHILDREN. OH, AND AT THE END OF THE HORRIBLE, SADISTIC BUS RIDE THEY HAVE A CHANCE TO MAKE MILLIONS OF DOLLARS.

          Honest to God, I’m going to to paste this same thing everytime someone brings up the bus ride to hold a football camp for underprivileged children. Oh, and I’ll also mention the fact that they have a shot at making millions of dollars when it’s over.

          The fact that people are still bringing up this god damned charity bus ride for underprivileged kids is mindblowing to me. Just say “How dare Eric Mangini give a shit about poor kids”. It’s a much more honest argument.

          Sorry Kanicki, if the rooks didn’t want to do it, then they could always go get a job flipping burgers. A little philanthropy never hurt anyone.

          • Anonymous

            >>>Sorry Kanicki, if the rooks didn’t want to do it, then they could always go get a job flipping burgers. A little philanthropy never hurt anyone.>>>

            Yeah it maybe overblown, but I think the point is that Mangini drove them out to a camp near HIS home, wasting most of the time alloted getting to his specific favored charity instead of maximizing it and allowing the players to take some ownership of the choices and beneficiaries. It is kind of part and parcel of his personality… a nice thing to do, but HE’s going to do it. At HIS camp. Run HIS way. Your service is not your own, but an extension of him. I do have a problem with that.

            I doubt anyone would have a problem with him saying that they had to do X hours of service for the underprivileged, or at least if anyone did have a problem with that, no one would care. Connecticut? Really.

          • http://twitter.com/cpmack Chris M

            “Yeah it maybe overblown, but I think the point is that Mangini drove
            them out to a camp near HIS home, wasting most of the time alloted
            getting to his specific favored charity

            Oh, it’s definitely overblown. No question about it. And since Mangini ran the camp with the foundation with HIS NAME on it, it would make perfect sense to ship 20-30 guys to the camp, instead of hauling the camp with 200-300 kids to Cleveland. Not sure why that has to be explained.

            At any rate, it’s a fucking 10 hour bus ride to help out a lot of kids who are less fortunate. It wasn’t a packed train car heading for Auschwitz. Why are we still talking about something that was obviously beneficial to everyone involved?

          • Anonymous

            >>>and since Mangini ran the camp with the foundation with HIS NAME on it, it would make perfect sense to ship 20-30 guys to the camp, instead of hauling the camp with 200-300 kids to Cleveland.>>>
            Uh, isn’t the really sensible thing to do to let the 20-30 guys express their service to the underprivileged in their own way? Like either in Cleveland or in their own hometown? The point for me is he blew say 25×20 hours = 500 man hours of valuable community service time riding a bus, so HIS specific favored charity in the wealthiest state in the union would benefit, as opposed to allowing the players to direct their giving themselves, locally. I have a problem with that both from the point of view of efficiency and management style.

            It IS overblown, but it also is evidence of a certain part of Mangini’s temperament that really doesn’t work for a lot of players.

          • http://twitter.com/cpmack Chris M

            “Uh, isn’t the really sensible thing to do to let the 20-30 guys express their service to the underprivileged in their own way?

            In short, no. That isn’t sensible at all. Because if he hadn’t put those rookies on a bus for CT, there is no way 25 of them would have donated 20 hours of their time on their own, without any persuasion.

            On another note, most people that have a foundation set up don’t move it when their employment status changes. Braylon Edwards is still doing his scholarship program in Cleveland. Should he dump that and take all the money to California with him? And your “wealthiest state in the union” quote is a bit off as well. Connecticut has it’s rough areas just like everywhere else.

            If my boss said “You have a chance to make millions of dollars. First, I need you to take a 10 hour bus ride and help out some poor kids”, I would do it in a heartbeat.

            The people complaining about it are selfish assholes, to be blunt about it.

            We’re not talking about management here. We’re talking about people vilifying a guy who put some rookies on a bus to help out poor kids. It’s really that simple, and it’s bullshit.

          • http://twitter.com/cpmack Chris M

            “Uh, isn’t the really sensible thing to do to let the 20-30 guys express their service to the underprivileged in their own way?

            In short, no. That isn’t sensible at all. Because if he hadn’t put those rookies on a bus for CT, there is no way 25 of them would have donated 20 hours of their time on their own, without any persuasion.

            On another note, most people that have a foundation set up don’t move it when their employment status changes. Braylon Edwards is still doing his scholarship program in Cleveland. Should he dump that and take all the money to California with him? And your “wealthiest state in the union” quote is a bit off as well. Connecticut has it’s rough areas just like everywhere else.

            If my boss said “You have a chance to make millions of dollars. First, I need you to take a 10 hour bus ride and help out some poor kids”, I would do it in a heartbeat.

            The people complaining about it are selfish assholes, to be blunt about it.

            We’re not talking about management here. We’re talking about people vilifying a guy who put some rookies on a bus to help out poor kids. It’s really that simple, and it’s bullshit.

          • Anonymous

             I don’t think you’re going to get my point. The reason you’re not going to get it is because you can right a sentence like this:

            >>We’re talking about people
            vilifying a guy who put some rookies on a bus to help out poor kids.>>

            When you talk about “taking” people and “putting” them places, you are talking about management. Bad management. People don’t like to be taken and put. People don’t like to be treated like objects, not even for a good cause. Again, no problem with voluntary service at Mangini’s camp, no problem with the the idea of mandatory community service, served as the player sees fit. Big problem with mandatory service and you will do it how and when and where I say and let me decide who needs help the most. Big problem with 500 hours WASTED because it had to be at HIS camp.

          • http://twitter.com/cpmack Chris M

            Ok, let me simplify this further.

            The rookies were given an option: Get on a bus and go help poor kids, or walk.

            I have to do things at work all the time that I don’t like to do. If I don’t do them (and all of them are less pleasant than teaching kids how to play football) then I would be fired. They could have said “no”.

            “no problem with the the idea of mandatory community service, served as the player sees fit.

            So really, it’s not mandatory at all then? This sentence makes no sense. Most of these guys would rather be playing Madden than helping kids.

            Just state the obvious, as I have to get back to work myself – You hate Mangini, charitable acts, and poor kids that reside outside of Cleveland.

          • Anonymous

             No, I mean you make the idea that you need to do some community service mandatory, but the player can fulfill that requirement as they see fit, so there is a much better chance they do it with more enthusiasm and experience giving instead of experiencing being given away. It really seems wrong to me for a coach or employer to use his players specifically for HIS charity. It sends the message that the boss owns the employee, and is the one who is so gracious as to donate them. It sends a bad message to the player and sullies their participation, and really as far as teaching about service is just about the opposite of what you’d want to do.

            And sorry, but it’s a huge friggin waste of time to spend 500 manhours on a bus trying to get to the poor kids. There are poor kids right here. There are other causes people care about. There are causes in the players own hometown backyards. I’m surprised you don’t see this angle.

          • http://twitter.com/cpmack Chris M

            I understand there are poor kids right here. And if Mangini were allowed to stay longer than 2 seasons, he probably would have tried to address them as well.

            In 2010, the camp included 58 schools from Connecticut, Massachusetts, and New York. 800 children. 120 coaches from the Jets, Miami, Dallas, San Francisco, Oakland and Cleveland. 200 more volunteers on top of that.

            http://www.cfm-foundation.org/

            I guess he should have flown all 1,100 people to Cleveland instead of busing the 25 volunteers to Connecticut.

            So now I guess I’ll go start trolling boards from Miami, Dallas, San Francisco, Oakland, and the Jets about how their coaches should be doing stuff with poor kids closer to home instead of the richest state in the union.

          • Anonymous

            I’m thinking that for Mangini, it was about a lot more than just the community service with poor kids.  Like you said, there are poor kids everywhere.  My take on the thing is that it was more of an exercise of the guys being together on the bus for all that time, and the bus ride itself represented more of a sacrifice by these men (boys) than merely showing up at a nearby location for a couple of hours sandwiched in between the rest of their day.    I think Mangini’s methods are broader than what appears on the surface. 

      • Anonymous

        They left out the part where Coach Mangini rode the bus back to Cleveland with the players.

        People seem to forget that Eric Mangini didn’t grow up in some posh suburb.   He grew up in a blue collar part of Hartford that most of you wouldn’t be caught in after dark. 

  • Anonymous

    This Nate Jackson really has it out for Mangini, Tony Grossi style. Check out this hatchet job from last year: http://www.slate.com/id/2274230/entry/2274686

    ONE WHOLE WEEK was all he needed to know about Mangini’s coaching style and how players would respond.

    Somebody is still bitter about being cut, no? What a whiny bum.

    • jhf44lk

      Wow That is Brutal. Sounds like this guy has a vendetta!

    • Anonymous

      Who is Nate Jackson?

      • Anonymous

        A former NFL player who seems very butthurt that he was cut from the Browns’ practice squat after one week during Mangini’s first year as the Browns’ head coach.

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nate_Jackson
        I do wonder who took the time to make a wiki page for this guy. Anyways, he’s now the author of this piece Frowns quotes in the second part of his post. So I linked an article he wrote for Slate a year ago where he just bashes Mangini. 

  • http://www.redright88.com Titus Pullo

    How DARE Alex Mack have an opinion and actually voice it!

    Who is he to question the methods of  a coach with a career record of 33-47?

    Off with his head!

    • Jaceczko

      If the analysis of the Alex Mack story were as summary and unengaging as this response to it, I would not be a regular reader of this blog.

      Love the name, by the way.

      • http://www.redright88.com Titus Pullo

        I was trying to activate the sarcasm font (probably at about 50 percent) but I couldn’t find the button.

    • Anonymous

      Opinions are like assholes–everybody has one and most of them stink. And it’s fine that he expresses his opinion, but doing so subjects him to scrutiny.

      Regardless, your response to all the criticism of Mack’s opinion by referencing Mangini’s record is lazy on your part. Nevermind he tore down two programs and started from the ground up. Win/loss is all that matters. Always. You don’t even need to watch the games or think to use that metric.

      • Anonymous

        I was going to just delete it, but this is much better. Thanks, guys.

        • Anonymous

          I guess my comment will be gone in the very near future.

          Disirr,  What were you thinking?   “Regardless, your opinion to all….”
          Please use the edit button to fix the first word of that paragraph.

          • Anonymous

            I assure you, I certainly considered that phrase. But ultimately, I don’t want to wear it out. Otherwise, it may lose the little bit of nerdy humor and effect I think it has.

          • Anonymous

            It is terrific.  
            I have been throwing disirregardless into every conversation I can, you should start every sentence that way.

      • http://www.redright88.com Titus Pullo

        “When the legend becomes fact, print the legend.”

        I just think its incredibly obtuse to have any discussion about a coach and never bring up his record or hold him responsible in any way for having a losing record.

        You don’t have to like it or agree with it, but wins and losses are how coaches are evaluated in the NFL.

        We are continually fed quotes from some of Mangini’s former players that he was a good coach and it’s presented as gospel. But when other players say things are better without a iron-fisted approach then they are somehow wrong or disparaged. For every Kris Jenkins, there is an Alex Mack, Joe Thomas, Sheldon Brown, Scott Fujita, Joe Haden saying the opposite.

        One of the biggest roles a coach has is to figure out how to correctly teach his players and how to motivate them. Just as not everyone learns the same way, not everyone is motivated the same way – some need a kick in the ass, some need a softer approach.

        I think that was one of Mangini’s biggest flaws – he wanted to treat everyone the same and was unable (or more likely slow) to adjust to the fact that approach doesn’t work anymore, or at least can’t be a universal approach to coaching.

        Having said that, while I think it’s great that the team and the players have a more positive attitude about what is going on in Berea, they still need to produce. They appreciate being treated like men? Great, but they have to continue to earn that respect by producing on Sundays, not making stupid penalties, etc. They definitely can’t have it both ways.

        • Anonymous

          You’re discussing two, albeit related, topics: (1) evaluating a coach using his win/loss record and (2) coaching tactics/style/motivations/etc. I’ll respond to the second point first.

          Given what you’ve written above, I am going to be a bit of a smartass now. So you were privy to Mangini’s coaching? I had no idea we had an NFL player in these forums. Oh wait, you never played in the NFL let alone be coached by Eric Mangini. 

          Now before you run off and take that little exercise I just wrote to its farthest extreme and say “so because we’re not in the NFL we now can’t comment on Mangini’s coaching? LOL OK BRO,” it’s simply a long way of saying you have no idea how Mangini coached outside of what his former players have revealed in the media. But the national and New York media viciously blamed Mangini for his time with the Jets after the Brett Favre experiment failed (remember: Mangini didn’t want Favre, but it was forced on him by his management).

          And the Cleveland media picked up right where New York left off and had it out for Mangini from the moment he got here. This has all be extensively described by Frowns here for years. Now what have we been fed by the National/New York/Cleveland media: biased, lazy, Mangini-bashing articles. And to fulfill this bias, of course these lazy journalists are going to only quote players who disagree with Mangini’s coaching tactics, practices, fines for stealing hotel water bottles, etc. How many Grossi pieces have you read when you had a player go out of their way to support Mangini? I wouldn’t think there’d be too many. 

          So we’re fed all this one-sided, biased garbage from hacks who had an agenda against the coach. The reason Frowns presents quotes that support Mangini as “gospel” as you say is because you are not getting that side of the story from anybody else. So yes, for every Kris Jenkins, you’ll get more players *reported* in the biased media disagreeing with Mangini’s tactics because those accounts serve the reporter’s agenda. For all we know, there can be plenty of other players who had no problem with Mangini, but we’ll never know. Therefore, unless you were actually coached by Mangini and know what his style is like firsthand, any other reasonable person just cannot take these reported accounts of the effect of his coaching tactics at face value because we can reasonably conclude that the reporters did not like Mangini.  And quoting malcontent players serves their agenda. 

          As for your point about judging a coach by their wins and losses, nobody’s said that wins and losses shouldn’t be a consideration, but just that they aren’t the only/most important consideration. You mock our criticism of Mack’s comments and dismiss them out of hand because how could Mangini’s coaching be effective if he didn’t have a positive win/loss ratio.  The same hacks that are lampooned in this forum use that metric as the end-all-be-all to prove that Mangini was a bad coach. But you’re better than that. So unless you can sit here and tell honestly me that the rebuilding efforts undertook by Mangini in Cleveland should have yielded a playoff contender in Year 2 (so if you’re not in playoff contention where the only thing that matters is your win/loss record respective to the standings, the wins/losses begin to mean much less), the win/loss record cannot tell the whole story of Eric Mangini’s NFL coaching career. 

          /end wall-of-text.

          • http://www.redright88.com Titus Pullo

            No, I never played in the NFL and never was coached by Mangini. Doesn’t mean I don’t know how to read. When multiple players come out and say they were demeaned, treated like children and didn’t like the system that was in place, I can draw a pretty accurate conclusion.

            However, I am a former card-carrying member of the media so I can speak to the “biased media” portrayal. I was actually in the secret meetings where the bias agendas were set – you know, like the ones against Sarah Palin, among others – and I can tell you that myth don’t exist. Unless you work for Fox, of course, where the bias is part of the company mission statement.

            But if creating a boogeyman helps you justify Mangini’s shortcomings, then more power to you. We all have to do what we need to get through the day.

            I never said wins and losses were the most most important consideration, nor did I say if I agreed that they should be. But plenty of people in the NFL only look at your record when they are evaluating you.

        • Anonymous

          “I think that was one of Mangini’s biggest flaws – he wanted to treat
          everyone the same and was unable (or more likely slow) to adjust to the
          fact that approach doesn’t work anymore, or at least can’t be a
          universal approach to coaching.”

          There is literally no evidence of this. Mangini asks more of his players, that’s clear, and some of them react to that better than others, which is also clear. The rest you’re just making up, because there’s no way for you to know that the complainers wouldn’t have become completely irrelevant if he’d had a fair chance to do his job. You know, like they are in New England. 

          And the record is absolutely irrelevant and actually regressively distracting when you’re talking about a guy who was working with what that guy was working with, under the circumstances he was working under, so when you come in here with nothing more than “33-47,” you’re lucky the comment stays up.

          • http://www.redright88.com Titus Pullo

            Which complainers would have become “completely irrelevant?” Joe Thomas? Joe Haden? Scott Fujita? Because they have all gone on the record as saying Mangini’s way wasn’t working.
             
            Bill Belichick has his way of doing things and it’s been established, I believe, that his diciples (Mangini, Josh McDaniels, etc.) have gone out and tried to do things exactly the same way. But they haven’t been able to pull it off because 1. they are not Belichick and 2. (most importantly) they don’t have Tom Brady.

            This isn’t a single member of the Belichick “coaching tree” who has gone on to success in the NFL. That has to count for something.

            It’s your site, you want to delete the comment, that’s your right. It’s like visiting someone’s house, you’re a guest so you follow their rules. I thought differing opinions were OK; apparently Mangini is too much of a sacred cow in this case.

            (Oh, and I accidently hit the like button rather than reply to your post. So, like Mangini and his coaching record, I should not be held accountable for that.

          • Anonymous

            Differing opinions are fine as long as they are logically/thoughtfully presented. These aren’t.

            Lies don’t help either. Thomas, Haden, Fujita have all said things are different and they like that, which is a lot different from saying “Mangini’s way wasn’t working.” Anyway, big surprise that players don’t want to believe (or publicly sign on to the notion) that 5-11, 5-11 was the players’ fault.

            The idea is that had Mangini had a chance to do his job, you would have stopped hearing the complaints, for a number of reasons, including that folks would have had a chance to see that the extra work was worth it.

            That Mangini and McDaniels only got two years in the situations they walked in to only tells me that NFL owners don’t think more of their fanbases than that they’re a bunch of vidiots with the attention span of fruit flies. In some cases, sadly, they’re all too right, but what we’re left with is a vicious circle.

          • http://www.redright88.com Titus Pullo

            Now the part about the owners I can get behind.

          • Anonymous

            >>The idea is that had Mangini had a chance to do his job, you would have stopped hearing the complaints, for a number of reasons, including that folks would have had a chance to see that the extra work was worth it.>>
            Entirely possible, but you really kind of assume the conclusion with this. Look, Mangini and McDaniels are guys who are trying to replicate something. In a copycat league, there is no question why they became the flavor of the month and were installed as coach/czars- Owners wanted Son of Belichick. But not everything can be replicated, and devotees make attribution errors about the reasons for the success of their favored systems as often as anyone else. 

            There are a variety of reasons second generations rarely succeed like the first. Chief among these is that too strong a belief in The Right Way” creates inflexibility and a failure to innovate. I can smell some of that on Mangini, though he may have been smart enough to avoid it. The second is that conditions are never the same, and often not similar enough for things that worked in one place to work in another. It may be that a team trying to be super-smart that does not strike historic QB gold in the 6th round would be too smart for it’s own good. Is it possible that the Colts high complexity offensive system will be a detriment to them without Peyton manning it?

            One thing that seems pretty clear to me in the NFL is that it’s really only the guy that gets out ahead of the trend that succeeds at it. Disciples just really don’t succeed that often. That’s why I feel that though many of the signs from McDaniels and Mangini were positive, I can see some negative too, and I don’t really feel like we missed out on “the next Belichick.” There almost never is a next. There is a something else.

          • Anonymous

            >>The idea is that had Mangini had a chance to do his job, you would have stopped hearing the complaints, for a number of reasons, including that folks would have had a chance to see that the extra work was worth it.>>
            Entirely possible, but you really kind of assume the conclusion with this. Look, Mangini and McDaniels are guys who are trying to replicate something. In a copycat league, there is no question why they became the flavor of the month and were installed as coach/czars- Owners wanted Son of Belichick. But not everything can be replicated, and devotees make attribution errors about the reasons for the success of their favored systems as often as anyone else. 

            There are a variety of reasons second generations rarely succeed like the first. Chief among these is that too strong a belief in The Right Way” creates inflexibility and a failure to innovate. I can smell some of that on Mangini, though he may have been smart enough to avoid it. The second is that conditions are never the same, and often not similar enough for things that worked in one place to work in another. It may be that a team trying to be super-smart that does not strike historic QB gold in the 6th round would be too smart for it’s own good. Is it possible that the Colts high complexity offensive system will be a detriment to them without Peyton manning it?

            One thing that seems pretty clear to me in the NFL is that it’s really only the guy that gets out ahead of the trend that succeeds at it. Disciples just really don’t succeed that often. That’s why I feel that though many of the signs from McDaniels and Mangini were positive, I can see some negative too, and I don’t really feel like we missed out on “the next Belichick.” There almost never is a next. There is a something else.

  • Chris Sobolewski

    If I recall, wasn’t a corner stone of the Mangini system that everyone should know what all the other people on the field’s responsibilities were?

    Therefore, teamwide film review makes a ton of sense. Especially since a breakdown on the line can affect the responsibilities of the secondary…

    Also: “Soooo, when you ask less of an NFL football team, the players will like you better for it.”

    Didn’t the players friggin’ love Romeo?

    • Jaceczko

      The players friggin’ loved Romeo.

      • Anonymous

        Romeo frigging made the playoffs.

        • Anonymous

          As the coach of the Browns? That’s news to me.

  • Jaceczko

    The real reason is that Shurmur would not feel comfortable, as the offensive coordinator, pointing out the mistakes of defensive players.

    When there is a head coach at team meetings, the head coach will tend to be more comfortable speaking to the team as a whole. An offensive coordinator has a full-time job to pay attention to the offense. That’s why we have Dick Jauron (who seems to be doing a fine job, by the way, the caught-with-their-pants-down play in the Cincy game notwithstanding) on the defensive side of the ball. That way OC Shurmur won’t be spread too thin by trying to coach the whole team.

    I really think Holmgren should either promote Shurmur to HC and hire a new OC to replace him, or else hire a HC this offseason. Shurmur looks good at OC so far though. 

    I’m generally pleased with how the Browns have looked, all things (no offseason, new system, new coaches, new personnel, &c.) considered.

  • eldaveablo

    I’ve had manager hardasses, and I’ve had buddy buddy ones, and both can be effective based on personnel and what is being asked to be done.  For every Coughlin, there’s a Dungy. For every Belichick, there’s a Walsh. 

    Feel free to rip apart our pro bowl center for his opinion. You have a comments section on this blog so that we can do the same and vice versa. Call me crazy, but I’m hoping Mack is right and the football team improves their actual record this year, and next… and next. Was Mangini’s approach the right one for this group? I guess we’ll never know. Right now I just hope that Shurmur’s is, and I plan on being open minded toward him & the players just as I was with Mangini. 

  • Bryan

    I agree that the News Herald’s use of the interview of Mack as a takedown of Mangini is silly.  However, I don’t understand the implied sentiment in your post that the Mangini/Belichick style is necessary for success.  It is clearly very nuanced, and, when implemented properly, successful.  However, there are many other styles that have consistently won in this league.  Bill Walsh, the mentor of Mike Holmgren, is a good example. 

    It is also makes complete sense that some players may prefer different styles, and that preferring a different style does not make that player “lack accountability.”

    I wish Mangini was still here.  The Browns would be 2-0.  But I also don’t hate Shurmur, and don’t see the point in comparing everything he does to Mangini under the implicit assumption that the “Mangini way” is the only way.  It is silly.  Not just because it is backward looking, but because it is a flawed argument.  You are setting up a false dichotomy in which there are two choice:  Mangini or failure.  This is just wrong. 

    • Anonymous

      Try reading again and see that you are reading far too much into this post, the point of which you pretty much summarized in the first paragraph. The problem isn’t that everything Shurmur does is wrong, it’s the way everyone assumes it’s right, just because it’s different than what Mangini did (which, of course, is something that only Bill Belichick could possibly ever do).

      I’m not the one setting up a dichotomy here at all.

      • Bryan

        Far point Frowns.  I re-read the post, and it does avoid the simple dichotomy I accused it of engaging in….

        And I agree that the media is definitely setting up dichotomies.  Sadly, I think that is because their collective IQ isn’t high enough to handle a world with more than 2 possibilities. 

        One great thing about blogs is that they free us from having to read the thoughts of morons whose only career option was journalism (see Grossi, Tony)

        • http://brian23.com Brian

          That’s an odd thing to say – is there something wrong with journalism as a career?

          • Anonymous

            Agreed that journalism is a fine career choice, along with butcher, and biscuit maker.

      • Anonymous

        I really don’t agree there. I think your mangini advocacy is such that you do fall into the error of kind of implying that other styles are neccesarily inferior. For instance, you take this different approach and say it amounts to expecting less of your football team. Not at all. It amounts to a belief in the value of specialized knowledge at the expense of generalized knowledge.

        Its possible that one group will respond better to one type of emphasis, another to a different one. But calling this style “expecting less” of your football team seems nearly as slanted as the article itself.

        • Anonymous

          “It amounts to a belief in the value of specialized knowledge at the expense of generalized knowledge.”

          That’s only true if you believe that, unlike my high school football team, the Cleveland Browns under Mangini couldn’t manage to have both whole team film sessions AND position group film sessions.

          The think less/play faster defense, the comments about Daboll’s offense, and these comments from Mack. It’s a pattern of aiming lower. Not sure what it says about “slant” that you’d suggest otherwise.

          • Anonymous

            There is a limited amount of time. Whatever time you spend on team sessions necessarily comes out of position sessions. You are treating it like you’re arguing over a binary, where really we’re talking about a spectrum. It’s not that there are NO team sessions or general knowledge, it’s that the emphasis is now more on the position sessions. Mack likes that better because he finds it more productive and more comfortable to be judged and critiqued by fellow specialists. I have no theoretical problem with that, and I have no theoretical problem with the opposite. Let’s see the results.

          • Anonymous

            As much as I see an obvious inherent value in having “whole team” film sessions, my real theoretical problem is with complaining about them like Mack did here. Of course I understand he has every right to.

      • Anonymous

        I really don’t agree there. I think your mangini advocacy is such that you do fall into the error of kind of implying that other styles are neccesarily inferior. For instance, you take this different approach and say it amounts to expecting less of your football team. Not at all. It amounts to a belief in the value of specialized knowledge at the expense of generalized knowledge.

        Its possible that one group will respond better to one type of emphasis, another to a different one. But calling this style “expecting less” of your football team seems nearly as slanted as the article itself.

  • Anonymous

    “Soooo,
    when you ask less of an NFL football team, the players will like you better for
    it.”

    as frownie suggests, and as data from a broader
    sociological perspective bears out, this is true only in the short
    run.  in the long run when a leader
    demands only a little from her followers, the followers only give a little to
    the leader and they don’t demand – or give – much to one another.  but when a
    leader demands a lot from her followers, they give a lot to her and they demand
    - and give – a lot to one another.  people in groups with demanding leaders
    invest a lot of themselves and are therefore loyal to the group and to the
    leader – they really give a sh*t.  people in groups with non-demanding leaders
    haven’t made that sort of investment, and therefore care less about the group
    and about one another.*  (lol yeah still have that #nerdy #somuchschool thing
    going on and yeah i love it so much.)
     
    hey you know what else this data suggests?  that
    frownie is onto something when he does things like demand that his cheddar bay
    participants write essays.  hey buddy have you been reading my thesis hahaha.   

    • Anonymous

      C_F_K_as_P,
      I read that same study about demanding leaders.
      I really liked the documentary too.  The song that went with it was terrific.
      “Guyana Punch” by The Judys.

      • Anonymous

        exactly.  what sort of punch do you think frownie will be pouring? 

        • Anonymous

          I think Frownie will
          “Pour Some Whiskey into My Whiskey”  and add a little atropa belladonna for good measure.

      • Anonymous

        exactly.  what sort of punch do you think frownie will be pouring? 

    • Anonymous

      Liking the “her followers” very very much.

  • kc dawg

    You need a taste of reality by having the entire office staff sit in on your annual review.  How would that float with you???

    • Anonymous

      If my job was to play football, and by “the entire office staff” you meant, “my goddam football team” then it would float like a feather with me.

  • Anonymous

    Well we all remember how well Mack did in the “Mangini Interview” where EM was just blown away by Mack’s intelligence… So it seems to me that we should trust Mangini’s instincts on this kid, maybe he responds better to Shurmur’s style.. but personally disirregardless of coaching styles, just play to win the game Macky boy, let’s get a home victory for Pete’s sake!

    • Anonymous

      Thank you Biki!
      It is not often that someone “gets” me.
      I appreciate your ability to comprehend even the depths of lowbrow humor.

  • Anonymous

    NFL players are unique in that the work for which they are accountable takes place entirely within just 16 (or more God willing) rigid 60-minute time periods in any given year. 
     
    And, none of them work alone.  Each performance is dependent on that of other team members, in real time.  Kind of mind blowing when you think about it.

    Discipline has to be right up there with athletic ability in keys to success.   Almost like the military, where humiliation and discipline seem to be a cornerstone.  Warm and fuzzy doesn’t cut it at the highest level.  But this generation is definitely softer than those in the past, that’s our society.   So the coaches do have to take that into account, and be sure that human factor is still there.  I think Mangini balanced that well, judging from comments made by various players.

  • Vari

    Isn’t the whole point of constructive criticism to make you want to do better?  Especially in front of the guys that rely on you to do it right?

    I wish the pros were more like youth athletics.  You get a holding penalty, run a mile.  You get misconduct penalties, it’s wind sprints for the whole team.  Don’t win that week, looks like somebody needs more practice time.

    Tired of all the coddling pro athletes receive.  Nut up or shut up.  

    • Smittypop2

      Are all youth teams good? This makes 0 sense. Is this why JoePA has built such a juggernaut?

    • Smittypop2

      Are all youth teams good? This makes 0 sense. Is this why JoePA has built such a juggernaut?

      • Vari

        Why does it make no sense?  If the sport is truly a “team sport” then things, such as film study, should be done as a team.  If one link in the chain fails than all fails.   Just because some Sally doesn’t have the mental fortitude to take some criticism doesn’t mean the new way makes any more sense the previous way.  I’m talking about the discipline and humility that is learned at the youth level.  It would be nice if a majority of athletes carried that with them to the pros. 

  • Wait’ll2yrsfromnow

    Yada, yada, yada. Punch the last guy for humiliating us. Sorry, but that is what it seems like. We certainly didn’t deserve to be humiliated, did we at 5-11? Maybe, just maybe, there wasn’t quite enough humiliation passed around. How’s that for punching the last guy, hmmm?

  • Wait’ll2yrsfromnow

    Yada, yada, yada. Punch the last guy for humiliating us. Sorry, but that is what it seems like. We certainly didn’t deserve to be humiliated, did we at 5-11? Maybe, just maybe, there wasn’t quite enough humiliation passed around. How’s that for punching the last guy, hmmm?

  • Anonymous

    as someone that was constantly the focus of humiliation those same high school group film sessions Frowns referenced, I can assure Alex Mack he will heal.

  • Anonymous

    as someone that was constantly the focus of humiliation those same high school group film sessions Frowns referenced, I can assure Alex Mack he will heal.

  • mcslain

    Could be Mack is smart enough to kiss butt while the H&H FO are hanging out long term contracts.

  • mcslain

    Could be Mack is smart enough to kiss butt while the H&H FO are hanging out long term contracts.

  • Anonymous

    Speaking of humiliation, what a shame that Metta W. Peace can’t dance.

    • Vari

      Stiff as a board. 

  • Anonymous

     Dont worry Mr. Mack, all our opponents will be looking and studying the tape that you dont want to see.

    CLTIL summed it up nicely, the last few generations are softer than previous gens. When I was teaching I marveled in knowing my students have never really known a bicycle ride without a helmet. Too much coddling. (not condoning unsafe bicycling!!)

    Somewhere between Berating & beatdowns and touchy-feely group hug sessions is the happy medium, but the biggest factor for any cohesive unit is consistency. I am a firm believer that both camps work, so long as there is the understanding that this is the way it is and its fair and consistent for everyone.
     

    • Anonymous

      dubby,
      Forget those silly helmets, let them get a couple of good concussions to toughen them up and while we are at it, screw those child labor laws.
      If they lose an arm or a few fingers it will teach them how to do without.

      This morning I watched my idiot neighbor put in his earphones, turn up his ipod, then ride his bike AGAINST traffic on the blasted SIDEWALK, (a $190.00 fine the last I heard.)
      Perhaps some of our laws of fecundity are still in place.
      He is going to end up under someone’s backing mini-van.

  • Anonymous

    Like your article and the running commentary.

    While Mack’s comments make good fodder, I think too much can be read into them.  It’s not like he was complaining about Mangini while he was here. It was more a comparison of two vastly different coaching styles, and an expression of his preference for Shurmur’s.   It’s not surprising he would notice the difference and express himself on the subject – until Shurmur, Mangini was the only head coach he knew in the NFL.

    The last thing a conscientious professional needs is to have someone chew him out over a mistake that he knew he made the minute he made it. The pro is already past that and working on how not to repeat it.  If he didn’t already know it, then he’s either not much of a pro, he has some learning to do.

    It’s one thing to go over the film and point things out for the benefit of the whole, but  it’s another to do it in a way that embarrasses the player – I sense from Mack’s comments is how Mangini did it.

    I never played football, but I’ve played a lot of music.  The musician’s version of the film session is listening to a tape of the performance.  You hear a lot of things that sounded better when you were performing than they do on tape. It’s a guide to what needs to be improved  that you would otherwise have missed.  You also  hear things that sound better than they did live.  And you never miss the mistakes you heard as you played them.

     

    • Jaceczko

      “While Mack’s comments make good fodder, I think too much can be read into them.”

      It’s also important to remember what the historian (reporter) is trying to do. You can be selective with sources. You can poll fifteen sources and only report the five that say what you wanted them to say, and take three more who just said “yes” to a bunch of long, detailed questions that they may or may not have understood but which were building blocks in the history you’re putting together. 

      It’s just like painting. The subject is just that: subject. To the art of the maker. 

      • Anonymous

        “You can poll fifteen sources and only report the five that say what you wanted them to say”

        This practice is also common in medical “research”. Ancel Keys’ Seven Countries Study is an excellent example of this kind of crap.

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8WA5wcaHp4
        http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18312812
        http://www.ravnskov.nu/myth4.htm

        • Anonymous

          TO,
          I had a job critiquing medical research and it was absolutely maddening.
          Many “researchers”  allowed “self report” and still called it empirical.
          My brother participated in a post myo-infarc study and he always reported his level of exercise as well beyond COPD guidelines.
          He never got off the couch, but he was a part of the “Very Active” cohort when the horse hockey study came out.
          I ended up quitting that job because I could rarely approve anything

          • Anonymous

            This kind of nonsense is particularly hideous when dealing with public health & the idiocy that gets promulgated from the BS.

  • Anonymous

    Frowns, if you have a few minutes you should check out Colt’s locker room interview from today on the Browns website.  I swear it’s Tony’s voice firing off 3 questions in a row toward the middle.

    (Paraphrasing)  How does he feel about playing against Daboll ~ Does he feel like he wants to show Daboll some things he didn’t see last year~ and did he think he was picked on because he was a rookie, or was it something else? 

    Colt was diplomatic about it.  But once he said “I’m not gonna go there.” 

    I don’t think TG asked any other questions, or maybe one.  

    • Anonymous

      Thanks for the tip.

      • Odordawg

        This is a sad little clique you have “Frownie”. I’m done wasting my time reading your estrogen enriched “blog”. Mangini is gone. Get a hammer, wood, and some nails, build a friggen bridge and get over it girls.

        The sad part is all of you little bitches raggin on a Pro Bowl center and calling him a whiner. NONE of you have his commitment to football. NONE of you had the balls to make it.

        • Anonymous

          LOL @ this guy.

  • sisko-kidd

    get off mangina’s nuts!!!!!

  • Anonymous

    Personally, I would like Alex Mack to come to a weekly “Morbidity and Mortality” conference and watch young doctors get asked questions about their job performance in front of everyone in their department.   It’s not, “Gee, Dr. Mack, why did you snap the ball over the QB’s head?”….it’s “Gee Dr. Mack, in the crisis of a cardiac arrest situation why didn’t you realize that the chest x-ray had subcutaneous emphysema and thus a pneumothorax thus losing the patient?”  When you leave the auditorium wearing your a$$ for a hat then you’ll know what true criticism and humiliation is Mr. Mack.

    I am damned good at what I do because the people who trained me made it so.   I am so damned tired of no one being able to take criticism.  It’s just unbearable.  Let’s all be half-assed about everything because we grew up with “helicopter” parents who hovered over every last bit of angst their child might have.  Give me a break.

    The “Mangini Hurt My Feelings” articles outnumber the positive ones because the media wants you to read those stories.   Do you really give a crap that Eric Mangini made Leon Washington into a real professional football player and he went on to be a Pro Bowler?   Did anyone seem to care that he was the one who picked Darelle Revis over Aaron Ross and Michael Griffin?   He makes these guys into pros because he holds them accountable.   I’m sorry that NFL players have thin, soft skin but in every workplace in America there is performance evaluation and if you think you’re going to hide in a team sport like football you’d best get ready for some therapy sessions because frankly there is no place to hide.

    • Anonymous

      You can’t hear me, but I’m clapping and cheering right now. 

    • Anonymous

      i think he said it was more effective to go over things with the position coach because you had more 1-on-1 time with the coach to discuss how to improve..  maybe that may get lost a bit when done by the HC..  at least that’s how it came off to me, not some sort of complaint about being held accountable..  

      • Anonymous

        That may be so BIKI but the tenor of the article is that Mangini “humiliated” him.  At least that is how the article is spun by the writer, calling the film sessions a “lynching”.  We have no evidence that Mangini’s position coaches didn’t review game tape in small group sessions.

        • Anonymous

          The “lynching” quote came straight from Mack.

      • Jaceczko

        Thought experiment: suppose the Browns do not currently have a HC.

    • Anonymous

      Are dermatologists or psychiatrists in attendance?

      Not as you describe the audience.   Instead, it is composed of true peers who have something  to learn from the young surgeon’s mistake that is directly relevant to their practice.

      • Anonymous

        posa: If we were talking about rocket surgeons v. radiologists and not a goddam football team I might be able to see your point.

        • Anonymous

          Huh?

          The Doc is telling Mack to stop whining because he gets reamed in front of an audience too and accepts it as part of his job.

          The problem is that Mack said he didn’t mind being critiqued in front of his peers – other offensive linemen.  Well, that’s exactly the same situation the doc is in.  The inquisition takes place in front of other docs in the same department.  Mack said that he’s comfortable with that.

          If you are trying to say there is no comparison at all because of the relative importance of surgery or rocket science to football, then we should all be writing and reading about the latest crop of Heart Surgeons at CCF instead of football.  Any professional worth his salt takes his job performance seriously. 

          I have more to say, but I’ve gotta go read up as much as I can about the neutrino that was supposedly clocked at greater than 186K MPS.

  • Bwfox49

    He’s a guy in his early 20′s, of course he doesn’t want to be ripped in front of everyone. You angry old people, complaining probably don’t want your boss to come in and scream at you in front of your co-workers. How long were your walks to school in the old days of football? Uphill both ways in 10 feet of snow?!

    Everyone had that coach that was a jerk and yelled day in and day out, that’s how you lose players. If they don’t feel like you care about them as players they won’t care about what you have to say and they’ll just hate you.

    Also way to ridicule a young probowler that will be huge for us in the future. After this lets go call Phil Taylor fat, and throw rocks and Peyton Hillis for fumbling. That’s what they did in the old days, right?

    • Anonymous

      Shucks, you’re right. I don’t know how Mack will ever recover from this post. OH WELL, another decade of historic futility for the Browns, I guess. Will try to do better next time around.

  • Steve Jarrett

    This has absolutely nothing to do with football, but I get very disgusted when some otherwise intelligent blogger spells God with a small “g”.  I mean, even if you’re a d______ atheist, at least show that you have a good command of the English language, including proper punctuation and capitalization skills.  It may seem like a moot point, but if people in certain other religions (or none) can get by with being ”offended”, then so can I.  At least show some respect for the entire English-speaking world, which is and has always been overwhelmingly Christian (capitalize that also).  

    • Steve J.

      If you don’t want to capitalize God’s Name, then don’t even bring him up….Thanks!

      • Steve J.

        Him

        • Anonymous

          All I know is that my god would kick your God’s ass, not least because nobody can tell what sex mine is.

          Thank you for leaving the new single dumbest comment that’s ever been left at this website. If we’re going for anything here, it’s churn, and I know the old titleholder appreciates it as much as I do.

          • Anonymous

             There is no way that guy was serious. Coming back on to post “Him?” Come on.

      • Steve J.

        Him

    • Steve J.

      If you don’t want to capitalize God’s Name, then don’t even bring him up….Thanks!

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