What it really would have cost the Browns to land RG3 in Cleveland

by Cleveland Frowns on March 12, 2012

If Robert Griffin III had been coming out last year with the same perceived value as he has entering this year’s draft, and the price would have been the Browns’ 2011 first-rounder (the sixth overall pick) plus the next year’s first-round pick, the trade would have been a no-brainer. Yet when accounting for last year’s draft day trade with the Atlanta Falcons, that’s essentially the exact price at which the Browns balked in losing the chance to land the quarterback out of Baylor whom the NFL Network’s Mike Mayock calls “the best throwing athlete [that's] come out in a while … far better than Michael Vick … far better than Cam Newton.”

It took the Washington Redskins two extra first-rounders and an extra second-rounder to move up from #6 to #2 in last weekend’s blockbuster trade that will land them RG3. Last year, the Browns received an extra first-rounder and an extra second-rounder to move down from #6 in the draft day trade with Atlanta, so all Cleveland would have had to add to that haul was an additional first-rounder, basically, the same price the franchise paid for the right to move up to draft Bernie Kosar (and the same price the Giants paid to move up to select Eli Manning).

It was all a dream.

Had it been the Browns and not the Redskins that traded two first-rounders and a second-rounder to move up to select RG3, folks wouldn’t have been writing all weekend about how the Rams’ trading partner took a desperate shot, or about how so much pressure has been transferred to the young quarterback from a coaching staff on the hot seat. Instead they’d have been writing (they’d still be writing) about how the Browns had set themselves up perfectly for this trade by way of last year’s trade with the Falcons, and finally landed a franchise quarterback. They’d be calling Tom Heckert and Mike Holmgren geniuses. A measly one draft without a first-rounder would have been nothing. It would be full blown Code Orange RG3 mania with no end in sight. Even another 4-12 season wouldn’t have slowed it down as long as Griffin looked like 25% of what folks say he’s going to look like.

The Browns had a loaded gun, as loaded as a gun could be for a situation like this, and they didn’t shoot. Maybe it works out? Anyway, in Holmgren we trust, derp derp derp derp derp.

Great.

Also, please pass us some of what Mary Kay is having:

Hey, Mary Kay: I read enough mock drafts that it gives me heartburn to think about it anymore. So who do you think the Browns will get? — Jeremy Cohen, Dallas, Texas

Hey, Jeremy: With RG3 set to go to Washington at No. 2, I’d explore a trade down from No. 4 and perhaps pick up Texas A&M quarterback Ryan Tannehill with a later pick. Some teams might love Justin Blackmon enough to make the Browns a blockbuster offer like the Falcons did last year. They can still come back at No. 22 and grab a receiver such as a Michael Floyd or Stephen Hill.

Since it worked out so well for the Falcons? Um, nobody’s trading up for Blackmon, especially not with Floyd and Hill on the board. Don’t think anyone has ever traded up to draft a cornerback either. We’ll be surprised if the Browns are able to move out of #4. Threading the needle to trade down and land Tannehill is even more unlikely. Um, Tannehill.

—————

Frowns NCAA tournament bracket pool details will be posted tomorrow. $20 to enter. Hope everyone’s week gets off to a decent start.

  • Hamfist

    Well Frowns, I just don’t know. Personally, when I gamble I take the short odds, so the choice to not get RG3 sits OK with me. I’ve long been of the opinion that the QB is the last piece od the puzzle, but I’m just some guy.

    Either way, it’s water over the dam now, so I simply hope with our first 3 picks this year we get good players who start here for a long time.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1173686871 Bradley L. Hamilton

    We would be feeling nauseous no matter if we were the ones who landed RG3 or the ones holding the bag (of draft picks). As Mr. Hamfist noted, it’s done with. It happened. I know that everyone, including that nose tackle of ours who makes spare cash by honoring real Americans in Miller Lite ads, said that RG3 is special, but he is one bad hit from introducing younger Washington fans to the pain of a Theismann-like injury.

    Hell, now we can continue to obsess over mock drafts because we will have a couple picks before the third round. That’s something.

    • Anonymous

      The majority would not be feeling nauseous if we’d landed RG3. Would have been just one draft without a first-rounder. He would have been had at the effective cost of last year’s #1, plus an extra #1.

  • https://twitter.com/jimkanicki jimkanicki

    given that trent richardson just had knee surgery, i expect we’ll throw three picks at the vikes to move up and get him.

    ahhhhhh… just funnin you guys.


    unrelated, im sorry i cant get enough of stuff like this:

    Hightower has been listed at 6-4 throughout his college career. He has been listed as 6-2 by the NFL, but he was measured at 6-0 on Wednesday. Who measured him?

    “I don’t know,” Hightower said. “I know I’m 6-3. I’m telling all of y’all: I’m 6-3. I don’t know what they’re talking about.”

    —-
    also unrelated, re your retweet: did tony grossly hack into tony grossi’s twitter account?

  • Anonymous

    That’s kind of a weird way of looking at things, that the later first round pick might as well be counted as free when calculating the price. Just because you already earned the money doesn’t make it less valuable.

    I was in love with RG3 all year, I thought we’d get him, I had my heart set on him as much as anyone except maybe P.

    I’m disappointed. And glad.

    I simply don’t think you can predict QB success with a high enough level of certainty to mortgage the future. It’s entirely possible that RG3 comes in here and chucks interceptions all day long and has a hard time even sticking, or takes 3 years to work it out and Washington lands in salary cap hell, shedding enough talent to offset Griff’s gains.

    Of course, if you eat up the narrative about the Brown’s regime being some on some transcendent, existential level of stupidity, then who cares if you mortgage the future or burn picks since they are so stupid they’ll just screw it up anyway, right? And since QB is the only position that matters…

    The Browns presented an incredibly strong, almost unprecedented offer. They were outbid by an organization known for irrationally and pretty disastrously outbidding anyone for shiny things. That’s life. Meanwhile, we’ve got 4 high draft picks to try and find a combination of players better than Griff. The odds are high that we will.

    • Anonymous

      “Just because you already earned the money doesn’t make it less valuable.”

      Sounds like something a gold hoarder would say. It doesn’t matter what Washington is, the fact is the Browns could have had this guy for the effective price of last year’s #1, and one more #1. The reason they were in that position is because some #1 picks are worth a lot more than others.

      Also, as much as it’s completely beside the point, I don’t think anyone eats up a narrative “about the Brown’s regime being some on some transcendent, existential level of stupidity.” It’s much more about a transcendent level of arrogance, and of being overpaid, disaffected, fundamentally unworthy, etc. It’s hard to think you’re not being deliberately dense when you confuse the two things. But yeah, RG3 would have done a lot to shift the mojo here. Oh well.

      • Anonymous

        >>>Sounds like something a gold hoarder would say. >>>

        Or Bellichick. I really thought you were mildly in the “don’t overpay for this guy camp” up until the point that they didn’t overpay. Guess I read that wrong.

        >>>It’s hard to think you’re not being deliberately dense when you confuse the two things.>>>

        I think the reason I fail to see that is that to me that rather subjective description of arrogance etc. could equally fit 95% of the other NFL regimes and owners by objective measures.

    • Anonymous

      i did have my heart set i super did :/

      i don’t think our regime is on some transcendent, existential level of stupidity; i think it is much much much much worse. (i mean – you can trick stupid people into doing things you want them to do.) i think they are completely unwilling to even try to hit a homerun, because god forbid they strike out. so they will just be content constantly hitting singles. that sort of thing might win baseball games (which is one reason football is a million times better than baseball). but it won’t get our brownies anywhere near a superbowl, that’s for sure.

      • Anonymous

        totally agree. it sure seems Holmgren’s goal is to turn this into a 8-8 playoff contender than move on. but if he swings big and misses, he might not get to do that. never mind, of course, that if he swings big and hits we actually turn into perennial title contenders.

      • Anonymous

        Seems to me that hitting single after single (with the odd double or triple thrown in) is exactly what successful football franchises do. 4 singles is worth more than a homer 90% of the time.

        • Anonymous

          once you have a successful system/infrastructure in place, maybe singles are fine. didn’t i say that already? look – winning teams with winning systems (new england, pittsburgh, etc) can draft to fill holes. we cannot draft to fill holes, because we don’t have that sort of system. until you have the right system, how can you even identify the holes? we need to stop pretending that we have an identity and can just draft accordingly.
          we need to go out and make a big big big move in order to get someone great. build around that guy – find a system and identity that works with him. then once we have a system we can draft to fill holes. hit singles.
          we simply don’t have that luxury right now.

          • Anonymous

            No I think the singles are how you get the infrastructure in place. It’s not plugging holes, it’s acquiring building blocks. I understand if you think they just have no blueprint and so need a player that defines the system. That pretty clearly isn’t what they think, but I get it.

            But I do have a hard time getting over the Browns getting killed for not offering more than they did, when they offered as much or more for a #2 as has ever been offered for a #1. And got outbid by a guy that has NEVER EVER EVER not wildly over-payed for anything.

            The admitted disappointment is getting the best of people.

    • http://twitter.com/cpmack Chris M

      “They were outbid by an organization known for irrationally and pretty disastrously outbidding anyone for shiny things.

      Deion Sanders, Adam Archuleta, Jeremiah Trotter, Jeff George, Bruce Smith, Albert Haynesworth and Brandon Lloyd all just gave you a wink and a nod.

      • Anonymous

        add Spurrier, Marty, old man Joe Gibbs, and even Shanahan to the list.. I have my doubts that’s he’s the coach still when RG3 finally (if ever) gets to “elite” status..

        but with their cap room, they could get Vinny Jackson and go after Hillis too (Shanahan drafted him). those would be some shiny toys to help RG3 get acclimated..

        • Anonymous

          Bite your tongue.

          • Anonymous

            it is the truth CLTIL :(

          • actovegin1armstrong

            CLTIL,
            Hate me forever if you wish, by all means, kill the messenger, but….
            I have heard some worthless, unfounded and immediately discredited rumors from undisclosed sources in Berea that Hillis is very unlikely to play any more games for the Browns.
            I never believe them, but these rumor mongers have been right on very many occasions.

          • Anonymous

            Yes, I know. Prepared for the worst and ever hoping for the best over here.

      • Acto

        Bravo Chris!
        I appreciate you defending our rather brilliant friend Bupa.
        I shall suffer the “slings and arrows” here if RG3 takes the Redskins to 4 Stuporbowl Championships.
        Bupa realized that the Browns would be giving up too much in competing with Dangerous Dan.
        I was very far away from worrying about grossly overpaying. I put the cut off at the Browns’ 2 first rounders this year only.
        I like RG3, but his running style and footwork evading rushers looks like an injury waiting for a place to happen.
        Hopefully it will not happen and he will have an illustrious, injury free career, but he frequently keeps his feet planted through impact and he runs right into trouble, he oftentimes has that JV QB with a plan look.

  • Bryan

    Frownie,

    There were two reports about what the Browns offered. One said they offered 3 first rounders (Shefter), and the other said they offered 2. Do you have additional information that leads you to believe the latter and not the former?

    As I see it, its hard to know what we offered. If we did offer 3, and it wasn’t good enough to get him, I am OK with it. If we offered 2, I am in your camp.

    There seems to be a school of thought that we COULDN’T have offered 3 because, if we did, we would have won the bidding due to the fact that our #1 this year was higher in the draft than the ‘Skins. I find this reasoning flawed. While our number 1 this year was two slots higher than the ‘Skins’, our second #1 this year is likely significantly lower in Round 1 (22) than what the ‘Skins will be picking at for the next two years. It seems perfectly reasonable that the Rams would prefer a #6 and 2 future first rounders from a likely non-playoff team over a #4, a #22, and a single future first rounders from a likely non-playoff team.

    • Anonymous

      First, it doesn’t matter what the Browns offered because they could have had him for three #1s and a #2, or, essentially, what they got for last year’s #1 plus one more #1.

      The most consistent read I get from the various reports is that the Browns offered three #1s, but balked at throwing in the additional second rounder. There’s no telling, though, and it really doesn’t matter for the analysis here.

      • Anonymous

        that’s my impression, too, and that is so tough to swallow. i mean, really balking over a 2nd rounder? and when it leaves us in a position of having no viable alternatives for obtaining a franchise QB for who knows how long. shit.

      • Anonymous

        I’m not sure how you know where a bidding war ends. From Ebay to Christie’s, people always think that they would have had the thing for 1 dollar more than the other guy paid.

        • actovegin1armstrong

          Exactly Bupa,
          I heard from the same unreliable source that “the line in the sand” for the Browns was this years’s two 1st’s and next year’s 2nd. (But, no one will ever know.)

          How many teams have given three 1st round picks +(“but wait, there is more”), to move up a couple of places?
          I do not think any team could fathom the depths of the insanity of Dangerous Dan.

          And…. What the hell is a “Franchise Quarterback”?

    • Bryan

      BTW, Peter King offers more details in his column today. He claims that the Rams gave each team one (and only one) offer. The Browns offered 3 1st rounders, the Skins 3 first rounders plus a 2. By this account, it was the 2nd rounder that undid the Browns.

      This sounds insane. Why would the Rams GM not play the bidders off of each other.? If he had told the Browns they were one pick short, I am sure they would have matched…. Of course, Snyder may have upped the stakes again.

      • Anonymous

        Yeah, that’s palpable horseshit. I’m sure STL might have said that, but there is no way on god’s earth they would mean it.

      • actovegin1armstrong

        Bryan,
        Peter King is a journalist, or something like that.
        What would he know about negotiations? He just needed a story and he found something highly implausible to print.
        There is no way anyone selling a prize like that limits the bidding.
        Buyers are liars, the Rams played everyone off of everyone and made up a few bogus deals of their own.

        Nothing scares a buyer liar more than the phrase, “Wow, that is a terrific deal, show me their proposal.”

        I really doubt that any other team offered three 1st round picks, they may say they did to appease their starry eyed fan base, but it did not happen.

  • Anonymous

    wrt the allegedly prohibitive cost of getting rg3, it’s worth noting that under today’s rules, rg3 and newton and luck and all top picks are much much cheaper than they used to be, because teams needn’t pay them as much to keep them locked up. (mike and mike were actually quite cogent on that topic today – somewhat shocking, i know.)

    honestly, the real harm in our not getting rg3 is that it just highlights – once again – that our ownership and leadership is not willing to make a really really bold move in order to turn this into a winning franchise. look: i’m not saying rg3 would for sure have done that. but there is a real, non-neglible chance that he might have. and, IF YOU REALLY DO CARE ABOUT WINNING, it was a chance worth taking. that is why it would have been a million, trillion times better for us to have gone after rg3 and had him be an absolute disaster, than for us to have given up on getting him. that is why it is better to have an allegedly “crazy” owner like dan snyder or the late (great) al davis than a conservative, “no one can blame me if i just say i’m leaving it to the geniuses in the front office,” owner like randy lerner. at least if we had a crazy like snyder or davis we would know that we were really really really trying EVERYTHING to win. and that would make losing more tolerable. it wouldn’t make it okay, of course, but you would see a light at the end of the tunnel.

    there’s no light for the brownies.

    • https://twitter.com/jimkanicki jimkanicki

      >>>> … is a real, non-neglible chance that he might have. and, IF YOU REALLY DO CARE ABOUT WINNING, it was a chance worth taking.>>>

      worth noting here that we are fortunate to have one such owner with that mindset and willing to green light wacky trades because even a small chance is worth taking when YOU REALLY DO CARE ABOUT WINNING.

      now THAT’S an owner.
      (corrupt business practices and napoleon complexes notwithstanding, of course.)

      • Anonymous

        Gilbert will be the guy to bring a championship before the other two, no doubt about it.

        • https://twitter.com/jimkanicki jimkanicki

          overheard at his doc’s office after measuring in at 5-4:

          “I know I’m 5-7. I’m telling all of y’all: I’m 5-7. I don’t know what they’re talking about.”

          • Anonymous

            He’s big where it counts.

      • Jeff

        yes! big bold splashy moves = winning! yep, that’s just how New England and New York and Pittsburgh and Green Bay do it…right?

        • https://twitter.com/jimkanicki jimkanicki

          lol.. i dunno. but any of those teams would surely love to have kyrie irving now.

          • actovegin1armstrong

            jk,
            What would Green Bay do with Kyrie Irving?

        • Anonymous

          as i’ve said here before: once you have a winning system in place, sure. you can just plug holes. WE DON’T HAVE THAT. nor does anything suggest we are anywhere near getting there. in the absence of the right sort of infrastructure – which we don’t have – you better believe big bold splashy moves are a viable option.

          • http://brian23.com Brian

            also why no matter what anyone says, the cavs getting to the playoffs this year is a great thing

            why am i only responding to you and only talking about the cavs lol

            #football

          • Anonymous

            the OKC win was nice, but not sure how much we should be patting ourselves on the back for the Houston win who was playing without 2 of their best players.. we will start losing again with another brutal 10 game stretch coming up.. and i really don’t get what is going on in NYC, they have 10 times the talent the Cavs have, the cream typically rises, we’ll see how it plays out.. the only other good things is that some of the teams below us are doing ok as well, so we’re not pulling too far ahead of them..

          • Anonymous

            I’ll suggest we are quite near getting there. QB is a problem, granted, but with 3 starters from this draft, I think we’ll have a solid core. We were mildly competitive in division games at the end of the year, even with that total shit offense and constant new-regime confusion.

        • kjn

          Some points, GB/NE both have made bold QB related moves that established their franchises – see Favre, Brett; Bledsoe, Drew (people forget that there was a time when going with Tom Brady was a gutsy, controversial move).

          Also, the last team to make a move comparable to getting RG3 were the NYG getting Eli and that worked out pretty well.

          • Anonymous

            There are thems as what will tell you (me) that the talent and system around Eli is a pretty big part of his success. This argument about needing an elite quarterback to win has a tendency to become self fulfilling when every Alex, Andy, and Eli is suddenly christened “elite” when their team finally has success.

          • kjn

            Obviously, the amount of talent on the team matters. Not going to deny that.

            I’m just a believer that you can always upgrade your team as a whole. Every draft, every FA period provides that oppotunity. But to get yourself really set at QB? That opportunity doesn’t present itself every day. And it’s disappointing when it does and you can’t get the deal done even though you want to.

          • Anonymous

            Especially when it would have effectively only cost you two first round picks.

          • Anonymous

            >>>Especially when it would have effectively only cost you two first round picks.>>>

            I can grant lots of things if things were other than how they were. So I’ll grant this.

          • Jeff

            All this proves the point that a splashy move is no good without a fertile system for it to develop in. On a bad team, a big move is just a short-term headline grabber/turnstile turner. P.S. Basketball is a poor comparison because the roster is so much smaller, and then there’s just dumb blind lottery luck (Irving). A better comparison is baseball, and overspending on one piece really doesn’t work out there.

          • Anonymous

            >>>every draft, every FA period provides that oppotunity.>>>

            Every draft provides that opportunity. Unless you don’t have a draft anymore because you traded away all your picks.

          • Anonymous

            Would have been just one extra first rounder next year. There would not have been a situation by which Browns “didn’t have a draft anymore.” That’s just nonsense.

          • Anonymous

            pure speculation what it would have been.. i highly doubt the Rams wouldn’t let Snyder get the last word if we out-Snydered him.. in the end, the Browns didn’t feel like getting into a Snyderingmatch with the original Snyder himself..

          • Anonymous

            I was thinking more of washington here.

          • actovegin1armstrong

            You are on fire today Bupa!

            YEAH, WHAT HE SAID!
            (Thumbing my nose at the RG3 conglomerate.)

        • Anonymous

          i am so sick of this point. sure, they did it that way. but lets quit acting like making a big splash in draft or FA is somehow ineffective.

          you know who did it another way: the Giants (eli) and Saints (brees)….winners of 3 of the last 5 super bowls

          • Jeff

            Giants didn’t make a splash so much as have Archie Manning deliver goods for which they gave up one draft pick. Arguably Philip Rivers would have been just as good there anyway. Saints didn’t have a bare cupboard when they paid Brees to come, and they didn’t give up any cheap young talent. I hear you on the “i’m so sick” part. But what makes me sick is Headlines Moves and the short-term gains we’ve enjoyed. Cleveland sports have had headliner offseasons for the past twenty years: Coach fired, blockbuster trade, huge FA signing. I’m tired of the merry-go-round. I mean, Brady Quinn was a GD splashy move. So was hiring Holmgren. For Crissakes.

          • actovegin1armstrong

            Chuck,
            How many draft picks did the Saints give up for Brees?
            New Orleans got Brees for a voodoo doll and half a cup of gumbo.

          • Anonymous

            as you know, he was a major free agent, signing for over $60 million.

            disproving the dumb “right way” to win theory of never doing anything except building thru the draft.

            (and you are not allowed to move up in the draft, either!)

          • actovegin1armstrong

            I am with you on the free agent signing. My point was that they got a terrific QB without having to trade away current talent, or future draft choices.

    • Jim

      There is no evidence that the Browns gave up on getting RGIII. Rather, the evidence establishes that the Redskins simply outbid them. That is a not so insignificant difference.

      If the rumors are true, a review of the facts and circumstances evidences that the Browns most likely did offer three 1st round picks. They knew they were bidding against Washington, knew Snyder’s tendencies, and knew that they would have to make an extremely competitive, historical bid to get RGIII. Three first round picks is just such a bid.

      Unfortunately for the Browns, Snyder also knew what the Browns knew and made an even more historically impressive bid. Game, set, match.

      • Anonymous

        i don’t think there is evidence proving anything definitive except that the browns didn’t get rg3. it is also unquestionable that the browns had more to give.

        lack of will to get is the only logical explanation.

        • Jim

          Not if King’s report today is to be believed. If St. Louis asked for each team’s best offer up front and the Browns offered three 1st’s and were outbid, I don’t think that evidences a lack of will on their part to get the deal done.

          Of course nothing is over until you sign on the dotted line. I guess the Browns could conceivably test how ironclad St. Louis’ verbal agreement is and throw a second and a third or fourth rounder into the mix.

        • http://twitter.com/cpmack Chris M

          “lack of will to get is the only logical explanation.”

          Perhaps. But you must throw “logical explanations” out the window when dealing with anything related to Dan Snyder.

      • kjn

        If we were willing to give three 1sts, that just annoys me more. At that point, do the 2nd/3rd/etc. picks make that much of a difference? It’s like buying a Lexus and then not paying the extra for tilt steering.

        • Anonymous

          Yeah that’s how auctions work. You stop thinking about what something is worth to you and start focusing on how just a little more will mean a “win” versus a “loss.”

          There is a pair of hello kitty socks on ebay calling your name! Go! Win!!!

          • kjn

            If you think 3 first rounders is a sensible price, I don’t see how adding a second is where you then draw the line. That’s all I’m saying.

    • Anonymous

      there’s no light because we didn’t get RG3?? so 3 picks in top 34, and nearly $18m in cap room with 4 above-average players coming back off IR doesn’t give us any “light”?

      besides, with the curse and all, i have no doubt that if we pulled the trigger on the ridiculous unprecedented, illegal in every other league type of trade the Skins pulled off that RG3, while on one knee tying his shoes, would’ve been accidentally tripped into by a jogging fellow teammate and torn his ACL again..

      • Anonymous

        yep – no light. not when you have conservative, too scared of making a wrong move to do something incredibly right babies running the show and an owner that cedes all decision making power to them.

        • kjn

          Exactly.

        • Anonymous

          too scared of making a wrong move?? their offer was already the biggest offer ever in NFL history (if accepted). there was no way Snyder was going to get out-Snydered, just wasn’t going to happen after they knew Peyton did not want anything to do living near where Delonte cruises around with a plethra of weapons..

          • http://twitter.com/cpmack Chris M

            Completely agree with every word of this.

        • Anonymous

          and again, there’s the curse and all.. not sure why that hasn’t gotten any play from the Frowner.. i guess making an unprecedented traded in the history of the NFL would be the perfect antitode to the curse..

      • Anonymous

        Crazy dan still looking so bad to you biki after his recent pick up? He’s taking good care of rg3 already. And in the meantime the brownies have done – oh right nothing. Sigh sigh sigh.

        • Anonymous

          good pickup i suppose, we’ll see how Garcon does as legit #1 without Reggie Wayne on other side of field.. and definitely overpaid for him, but cheers to Pierre for the big score.. another splashy pickup for the Hogs!

    • Anonymous

      The new agreement does raise the value of the top paid draft positions like QB. But it isn’t quite as cut and dried as all that. It’s a 4 year contract, and if you’re going to franchise in year 5, that may be 20MM , as QB’s won’t be paid less, it will just be a shift in timing of when they are paid. Griff needs to get very good very fast for the dollars to work in Washington’s favor.

      >>>that our ownership and leadership is not willing to make a really really bold move in order to turn this into a winning franchise.>>>

      P, I understand your all-or-nothing logic and my Griffcrush was nearly as big as yours, but I just totally disagree. What you’re in effect saying is you have to take a big huge one-shot gamble to win on the favored horse. That’s just not true, not in gambling theory and not in the NFL. It’s another appendage of rampant innumeracy; falling in love with the single most likely scenario to the point that you fail to realize the 12 other less likely scenarios add up to a greater total.

      It’s too bad the hype caught up with Griff. He was a great prospect that you could hope would slip under the radar in Luck year. Now no one even remembers who Luck is, the guy that some people were suggesting might be worth 3 #1’s.

      And now we’ll see if 20 year old Griff is as great an NFL player as is already factored into the March 2012 price. Or a bust. Or decent. Or good. Or gets injured. Or takes a long time to mature. If it doesn’t go according to plan, it will be years before Washington can BEGIN rebuilding. All the eggs are in that basket. Love the shiny egg, but I’m glad that’s not our basket.

      • kjn

        Why do people keep saying that “crazy” deals like this don’t work? What moves are comparable to the RG3 deal? Eli Manning.

        • Anonymous

          nothing is comparable to RG3 deal, it was the largest heist in US history, probably will go down the road in the Smithsonian in their upcoming NFL exhibit..

          but if you want to compare Eli-like trades, how are things working out for the Bears with the Cutler trade (traded 2 future 1st rounders as well as some latter round picks), the Saints with Ricky Williams fiasco, and Vikings for Herschel?? (sure worked out for the Cowboys on that one)

          • kjn

            Considering the new rookie salary cap, I think the RG3 deal (and it’s extra 9000 pts or so on the draft chart) falls in line with the Manning deal quite nicely.

            I’m not arguing that ALL big moves work out. I’m arguing that some of them do. To say they don’t is to ignore the most recent, similar comparison.

          • Anonymous

            exactly. we love each other today because we are the only ones making sense – why isn’t anyone else taking into account the new rookie salary cap? my god even mike golic understood that line of reasoning!

          • Anonymous

            It’s a factor but it’s limited. The fact is, IF he pans out, 6 years of Griff will probably cost only maybe 10% less than they would have. That rookie money taken away in the first 4 years is going to be shifted to a quickly rising franchise number. The point is that number will rise more quickly specifically because changing the term to 4 years means more and more valuable (younger) free agents. So if you’ve got a franchise guy (best case) you’re still going to pay.

            In reality, the Skins will probably have to decide at the end of 2 whether they want to do a big extension, so the cap number can be managed into an overall plan. It’s really a lot more complicated than simply “now guys you draft will be cheap.” They are a lower money risk, because you can bail. But good players will not be cheaper.

          • Anonymous

            take that Golic!

          • http://twitter.com/cpmack Chris M

            I agree with this.

            Taking this in mind, the next time the Redskins have a pick in the first round, Griffin will either be labeled a bust or up for a giant contract.

            I will also be old enough to become President of the United States of America the next time the Redskins have a first round pick.

          • actovegin1armstrong

            Did you know Mike or Bob Golic?

          • Anonymous

            I’m not *that* old lol. One of my older sisters played beach volleyball with mike baab – does that count for something? Lol.

          • acto

            I am that old. Mike is not a dum guy like me, he can be rather eloquent when he is not playing the fool for TV.

          • Anonymous

            My husband worked for Bonnie Golic , their sister, years ago. She was about their size (calves like volleyballs) and twice as mean.

          • acto

            She is not exactly a supermodel, but she dumped me anyway.

          • Anonymous

            some = 1.. and many of the other great draft selections the Giants have made over the years have helped the Giants just as much as Eli has (if not more).. they have 2 rings with him being QB, but it took him 8 years to put up “elite” numbers.. even his stats in 07 during the regular season of their 1st ring with him were nothing to write home about.. he’s a miracle Tyree catch away from maybe being given up on and eaten up by nastiness that is the NY media and fanbase..

          • kjn

            I really don’t want to debate the value of Eli Manning. People just keep saying that big moves don’t get it done, yet the most comparable move to the RG3 trade resulted in a franchise QB who has won two Super Bowls and has a shot at the HOF.

            Now, did the NYG develop in a vaccuum? No. Did their front office continue to make smart moves? Yes. Is Eli the greatest QB ever? No.

          • Anonymous

            you mean the most recent “comparable” move, (even though it’s not really all that comparable).. there are 3 other “comparable” trades that were turrrrible. and with the curse and all, i just don’t think the odds were in our favor to beat the 1 in 4 odds of success..

          • kjn

            Well, it’s not 1 in 4. Those past results have no factor in whether RG3 succeeds or doesn’t.

            If you think RG3 is the best thing since sliced bread then I think just about any price is defendable to pay. If you think there are question marks about him, I don’t see how you can justify three first rounders, let alone what the Skins paid for him.

          • Anonymous

            yes, and the Browns limit was 3 first rounders.. i think it’s perfectly reasonable for them to cut it off at that, since it would’ve been the most ever spent ever in the history of the NFL, let alone only to move up 2 spots for a guy who isn’t even the #1 pick (or who knows, maybe the Colts take him)

          • Anonymous

            and if RG3 in a Browns uni puts up similar stats/numbers that Eli put up his first 3 years… sweet feathury jesus, and you think people want Holmgren out of here now, i can’t even imagine the type of anarchy there would be then..

          • Anonymous

            “nothing is comparable”

            then you compare like 5 trades.

          • Anonymous

            um, i was comparing the Eli trade.. why do you even respond to my posts if you don’t read them??? DERP!

          • Anonymous

            i try not to read your comments, but when you post like 25 out of 75 comments its hard to avoid.

          • Anonymous

            ok dude, well you obviously didn’t read my post, otherwise you wouldn’t of responded with such a sophomoric comment.. just another one to add to the list! or now that you have more time to think about it do you reconsider (re: Christie definitely not getting re-elected, oh wait, maybe he will!) DERP!

          • Anonymous

            lay off Biki. This is the most right he’s ever been about anything.

          • Cliff_cintula

            sorry Biki, I posted before I read your comment.

        • Anonymous

          Nothing is comparable.

        • actovegin1armstrong

          kjn,
          Nothing.
          No deal is comparable.

      • Anonymous

        and i’m not saying “have to” in every situation, or that big and splasy is the only way to win. i’m saying it’s one way to get there, and that most people don’t even have the chance to do it (i.e. there isn’t as good a qb up for grabs as rg3 in every draft and we were one of two teams positioned to make a deal), and that when you have the chance and when you aren’t clearly positioned to win any other way then yes – you do have to.

        you *especially* have to when you are in a town that so desperately needs to be shown – by the browns ownership and management – that they are doing everything in their power to get this team back on track. this failure to get rg3 does the opposite. i don’t care who we draft. at this point who is excited to buy browns tix?

        as for the shiny egg – seems to me you can’t have it both ways. sure we were giving up a bunch of early round picks. but if what you say is true – and we don’t need big splashy players if we just draft smart – then we should be fine and dandy with a pack of lower round picks. right? i mean, every year some of those guys prove amazing. therefore we don’t need shiny eggs. but if we happen to have the chance to get one – WHICH WE DO THIS YEAR AND ONLY THIS YEAR BECAUSE RG3 ISN’T COMING AROUND AGAIN – then we should go ahead and pick it up.

        • Anonymous

          so what are you suggesting we should’ve done? called the Rams back and offer 4 1st round picks???? i mean good lord, the Rams had Snyder just where they wanted him, and I’m sure they would’ve listened if we one-upped him and then gone back to Danny boy for him to one-up us again.. he was not going to lose..

          • acto

            “and then gone back to Danny boy for him to one-up us again.. he was not going to lose..”

            I concur with your take on the Rams playing Snyder like a Stradivarius, but you may be incorrect on that last sentence.

            Dangerous Dan lost.

    • http://brian23.com Brian

      this is why dan gilbert is by far 80000000% times over the best team owner in cleveland

  • Anonymous

    frowns, excellent points about the true cost when accounting for last year’s big trade. after being on the fence, i am now officially upset they didn’t make the trade.

    Tannehill had 15 INTs, including 3 games of 3 or more INTs. He completed just 60% of his passes in a wide open spread offense in the big 12. Absolutely terrified if the Browns pick him.

    I just assume sign Jason Campbell or Kolb (if available), unless Foles falls to the 4th round (possible). Maybe burn a 6th rounder on the Oregon QB Thomas.

    And then get ready: BUMFIGHTS 2012, QB Competition Edition!

    • https://twitter.com/jimkanicki jimkanicki

      im reverting back to my original pipe dream: trade the #4 to pats for their two 1st rounders and ryan mallett.

      draft talk!!

      ps: bj coleman.

      • Anonymous

        hmmmm….

      • Anonymous

        Mallet would be nice. Seems like Big Ben, minus the rape and hats that don’t fit.

    • Anonymous

      another thing to rebut the anti-trade folks is that now the Browns will have to keep burning mid-round picks on QBs (like we did w/ Colt, like we may with a guy like Foles, and so on until we get someone). It will be interesting to see how many draft picks the Browns spend in the next decade on QBs compared to the Redskins. Probably like 5:1.

      • Butzmark

        The pick burned isn’t the big deal..it’s the time wasted to “see what he’s got”..think Colt McCoy. Will we get another look now?

    • Anonymous

      I fucking hate Tannehill! We should start some sort of death pact/cult if we draft that shitpiece.

  • Anonymous

    Phil Savage would have gotten it done.

    My head is spinning just thinking about this draft. Everyone knew about Luck before the season and then to have RGIII burst on the scene (head at 6000 rpm). Browns have an additional 1st rounder (12000 rpm). Somehow the Browns end up picking 6th when they look like they should be picking no later than 3rd ( 2400 rpm). Browns are drafting Tannehill?(4800 rpm)

    Damn you Wahoo!

    • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1173686871 Bradley L. Hamilton

      Try living in the DC area and attempting to listen to sports radio this morning. After listening to these dullards, I think I now know the angst and frenetic energy that only PCP can bring about.

      DC’s fan base is happy. They love winning the off-season here, and for once, they just might have won something more than headlines by doing what they do best: Committing to doing whatever it takes to get what you want instead of behaving like you’re so much more clever than everyone us.

      • Anonymous

        As a former resident I can empathize with your position. Although listening to Czaban & Pollin especially after a Skins loss would make that 90 minute commute somewhat tolerable.

      • http://twitter.com/cpmack Chris M

        “they just might have won something more than headlines by doing what they do best: Committing to doing whatever it takes to get what you want instead of behaving like you’re so much more clever than everyone…

        And all of the Lombardi Trophies in Dan Snyder’s case back up the reasoning behind proudly “doing what they do best?”

        • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1173686871 Bradley L. Hamilton

          Yes, that was the rub I was equivocating about. The Browns are usually too scared to do anything, and the Redskins are usually so eager to overreact/-spend/etm.

          • http://twitter.com/cpmack Chris M

            That’s fair, unfortunately. However, anytime a team loses a bidding war to Snyder, I usually feel pretty good for that team.

          • Anonymous

            all this piling on Dan Snyder as reason to feel good today is pretty lame.

            I mean, they win more games than us every year. They have been to the playoffs twice since our last trip, and will be better than us in the future because they now (likely) have stability at the most important position in the sport.

            So, yeah, Snyder may suck, but we definitely have a worse run franchise.

            Everyone gets that, right?

          • http://twitter.com/cpmack Chris M

            Snyder is a marginally more successful owner than Lerner, but has never come close to winning anything. (Fixed)

          • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1173686871 Bradley L. Hamilton

            Yep. He’s increased the profitability and value of his franchise, albeit in a much larger market. He also took over an established franchise and turned it into a mediocre one, instead of taking over a new franchise and turning it into a laughingstock.

  • kjn

    So, we had the opportunity and the desire to make a bold move – a sink-or-swim, franchise making-or-breaking, legacy defining move – and we got outbid.

    Maybe this will work out for us in the long run, but I can’t help but be disappointed. This franchise has been playing it safe for over a decade now, grinding it out Wedge style, and what has it gotten us? Boring, terrible football.

    If we had no interest in RG3, if H&H thought he had flaws in his game, then I’d be okay with this. But that’s not what happened. So yet again, we end up looking like a c-list organization, a faux-franchise that just goes through the motions to create the perception of a football team.

  • Anonymous

    I don’t think the Browns ever really intended to go after Griffin. If he was on top of their board, they would have pulled the trigger. I don’t think he was in their master plan, but they made it appear that way to appease the fans.

    I still think they will go for Flynn with the GB connections and WCO baloney. Unless Manning goes to Denver, then Tebow will come save us from this hell.

    • Anonymous

      ????

      Offering more than has ever been offered in the history of the NFL for even the #1 draft pick is not being serious?

      Are you serious?

      • Anonymous

        I’m just saying that only the Rams and the Browns really know what went down here. Too much bad information gets put out there, and the facts get lost or are never revealed in the first place.

        • Anonymous

          well, it’s a possibility I guess, and a pretty shrewd one if they really want Flynn. The very fact of our going THAT hard after Griff probably would make GB think twice about franchising him, since it kind of says we’re not all that excited about the other options.

    • http://twitter.com/cpmack Chris M

      “I don’t think he was in their master plan, but they made it appear that way to appease the fans.

      This particular Browns front office made it obvious that they don’t give a rat’s ass about appeasing the fans. I don’t really buy into this.

  • kjn

    Also: as much as people complain about the Indians, they have never shown themselves to be too timid to make major trades. Granted, that’s partly baseball’s structure, but Shapiro and Co. clearly are not afraid to open themselves up to criticism by moving players around.

  • http://twitter.com/cpmack Chris M

    Dan Snyder made up his mind that he was moving up to the 2nd pick, and there was nothing that anyone was going to do to prevent that, because that’s what Snyder does. He gives Haynesworth $100m. He gave old, worn out Deion Sanders $35 million. I could list another half a dozen other guys (edit: I actually do above) that he overpaid for that were in the twilight of their careers or just flat out mediocre.

    Google “offseason champs” and tell me how many results in the top 20 come back as Redskins related.

    The point to all of this is, if St Louis would have tried to stick up Washington and the Browns in a negotiation, that “1 more pick” would never arrive. If Cleveland matched the additional second round pick, then Washington would have thrown in a third rounder, and everyone would crying today that “a third round pick was why the Browns lost out on RG3″.

    Enough already, please. If anything, this should make Frowns’ draft party at the Map Room all the more interesting, as there will be that feeling of anticipatory surprise in the cockle area of the heart. Maybe even the sub-cockle area. Who knows.

    • Anonymous

      Sanity!!

    • Anonymous

      i’m not gonna lie Chris, it feels good to be on your side for once! ;-)

      • Anonymous

        Cool it.

  • http://twitter.com/nmesha Nick

    It’s needs to be said that despite his wonderful press conferences, RG3 throws, runs, and plays a lot like Vince Young.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOi3yAdqTYA PittsburghisforManLovers

    I propose trading to the Redskins our original offer and also Chief Wahoo so they can have the most racist name and logo. Win-win for everyone. Synder is a marketing guy – the possibilities would be endless.

  • Anonymous

    People really need to relax. Let’s see how this kid handles the NFL and being declared a savior before we get too upset about not mortgaging the future to get him.

    The Browns are still in great position to improve their roster dramatically through this draft, it’s not the end of the world.

    • Anonymous

      yeah, let’s see how he does against that G-Men front a couple times a year during his formative years.. not too mention Manginenius, err I mean Rob Ryan’s mangenius defensive schemes another 2 games… he’s definitely not going to get any favors by the other players in the league either, especially when you get traded for that sort of bounty.. you talk about bounties, there’s going to be some loot being spread around on who hits him the hardest.. man, the more i think about it, the happier i am that we didn’t get Snydered..

      • Anonymous

        I couldn’t be happier; this draft should lay the foundation for a real NFL roster.

        • Anonymous

          yups! and i’m looking forward to year 3 and year 2 out of the the last 2 drafts.. we all know how Frownie feels about Year 3 for the youngsters!

          • Anonymous

            dude, you know this is third-year-one, get out of here with this year 3 business!

    • kjn

      It’s also crazy to me that this all went down six+ weeks before the draft. The Redskins are a motorcycle accident away from vastly overpaying for Matt Kalil.

      • Anonymous

        Exactly; which should make everyone around here very happy that our GM did not take the bait.

  • Anonymous

    Spilt milk now. Lets get to work on our new future!

    FA: Garcon, Kolb(if manning is a card)
    4. Claiborne
    22. best talent that is an OL/DL/LB (although i am still partial to a wr here if a certain few are available but i dont think they will be)
    37. best talent
    the rest. Talent,talent,talent, and 1 ‘project’!!

    • Anonymous

      bring back Killakam??

      • Anonymous

        I would be behind a Wimbley reunion, yes!

    • kjn

      Agreed. No point dwelling on this any more. Ain’t meant to be, it ain’t meant to be.

  • Anonymous

    RG3 in Cleveland – Multiple Championships. Face of the city.

    RG3 in Washington – Bust, injured by Giants, held back by coaching staff and inept owner.

    THESE ARE FACTS AND CAN NOT BE DISPUTED.

    -We still need a QB and I need some more time to get over this one…even though I firmly believe there is no way you can ever win a bidding war with Washington.

    -Also still recovering from MAC title game and the slap in the face that followed forcing Akron on the road for a 1st round NIT game.

  • Anonymous

    per Zac Jackson, truer words havent been spoken in the past three years:

    “The fact is this regime still has to prove itself, its intentions and its methods — and until it does fans can either learn to love the LaMonte Coast Offense and get on board with more patience, or just give up altogether.”

    • Anonymous

      yeah, and most of that depends on how they do in FA and the draft, not from getting outSnydererd.. why can’t people just chill and see how this next 1.5 months play out.. sheesh

      • Anonymous

        i really just like the ‘LaMonte Coast Offense” part, made me think ‘this has Frowns all over it’.

  • Anonymous

    I have yet to hear anyone say one negative thing about Brandon Weeden other than his age.

    Can someone please tell me why Weeden at pick #22 is not a thousand times better/safer/smarter than RG3 at that price? We should all be thrilled that the Browns got outbid.

    • Anonymous

      Roger Staubach was 27 when he started. But he was Roger Staubach.

      • Anonymous

        Even if Weeden has a shortened career because of his age, if he solidifies the position for the next 6-8 years, isn’t that a major upgrade over what we’ve been through since ’99?

        Everyone keeps saying they need to find the QB that will lead them to the Super Bowl, but shouldn’t we start by making the playoffs first? Based on Heckert’s first two drafts, I see no reason why Weeden + the rest of our draft picks & some smart moves in free agency can’t lead us to the playoffs by 2013.

        • Anonymous

          Heckert was gushing about Weeden. He would be an interesting choice with his pitching background. Much better than Tannehill.

          At this point I just can’t bear to see McCoy again.

          • Anonymous

            Agree, I prefer Weeden over Tannehill. Everything is temporary anyway. 5 years of QB stability would be like Nirvana here.

          • Anonymous

            Weeden + Blackmon wouldn’t be horrible.

  • Anonymous

    all this piling on Dan Snyder as reason to feel good today is pretty lame.

    I mean, they win more games than us every year. They have been to the playoffs twice since our last trip, and will be better than us in the future because they now (likely) have stability at the most important position in the sport.

    So, yeah, Snyder may suck, but we definitely have a worse run franchise.

    Everyone gets that, right?

    • Anonymous

      yes, but when he gambles bigs he loses big.. he’s been fortunate to have decent enough drafts and hit on other FAs such as everyones hero London Fletcher, and they probably would have had more success if it weren’t for the tragic loss of Sean Taylor… but the point of reference is his big bets and how he always busts on them.. maybe this is the bet that hits for him, we shall see..

    • Anonymous

      “…will be better than us in the future because they now (likely) have stability at the most important position in the sport.”

      Or, they will have just set their franchise back another 5 years by mortgaging the future for one player. It’s a coin flip at best right now.

      • Anonymous

        that 50/50 coin flip stuff is just not accurate.

        If memory serves from prior debates, in the past decade there have been about 9 QBs taken in the top 3 picks. Only Jamarcus is a true bust that ruined his franchise.

        Vince Young (who everyone knew had accuracy problems) and Alex Smith (many saw as a stretch at #1) have been a mixed bag, but certainly not the franchise ruiners that the naysayers warn of. The others all franchise level QBs (Newton/Eli/Ryan/etc).

        So while that 50/50 thing sure makes the skeptics feel good, its not borne out by the reality.

        • Anonymous

          I’m not basing it on QB’s taken in the top 3, I’m basing it on 2 QB’s going in the top 5. The last time that happened was 2009 with Stafford & Sanchez.

          How do you feel about Mark Sanchez?

          Just for fun, let’s take a look at some of the guys taken in the top 10 recently:

          Do you like Locker & Gabbert? Are you convinced Bradford isn’t a bust? We all know about Vince Young & Jamarcus Russell. How about Matt Leinart? Alex Smith?

          I know everyone thinks RG3 and Luck are the studs of the century, but history shows that one of them will not pan out for whatever reason and I am not betting against Luck.

          So, I guess you’re right, the 50/50 thing probably isn’t accurate; the odds are probably much worse in reality.

          • Anonymous

            It’s fair to say that Luck and Griffin each project better than every one of the guys you list here did, but the predraft consensus on Sanchez, Locker, and Gabbert wasn’t even in the same universe.

          • Anonymous

            Pre-draft consensus is irrelevant. The question isn’t about who seemed like a better pick at the time; it’s about who was picked where and how did they turn out. I say it’s less than 50/50 when you take a top 10 QB.

            Each of those guys were taken in the top 10 of recent drafts and each of those teams probably felt really good about the pick. QB’s are consistently over-drafted in this era of the NFL and the quickest way to set your franchise back another 5 years is to panic and make a move like Washington just did. Literally every year people start drooling over a couple of QB’s and they get thrust to the top of draft boards, but at least half of them fail to live up to the hype.

          • Anonymous

            I understand where youre trying to go, but this is simply irrelevant. If you flip a coin 10 times and it lands on heads all ten times, the odds of the 11th toss are still 50/50.

          • Anonymous

            I know, I got a bit carried away. All I’m really trying to say is the risk was too great and they are still in a very good spot.

          • Anonymous

            well, that’s just a flawed way to look at it.

            but just to play along, in the past decade, 2 QBs have gone in the top 5 in the same draft twice: 2009 (Stafford, Sanchez) and 2004 (Eli, Rivers).

            Sanchez doesn’t seem so great (but not exactly crushing his franchise for 5 years as you claimed happens half the time). The other 3 are excellent QBs. So even your own standard shows that most of these top guys in the past decade aren’t ruining their franchise.

            oh, and Locker or Gabbert or Leinart weren’t top 5 picks. but if you just cite a bunch of bust QBs, then I guess I can’t win that debate.

            in the meantime, I will again point out that only 1 of the past 9 top 3 QBs picked has been the bust that you described as a guy that really crushed his franchise.

            And if we expand that to top 5 picks, I believe it is 11 QBs in the past decade, with only 1 total bust and a few mixed review guys iike Smith and Sanchez (that happen to get their team to 1 game from the super bowl).

          • Anonymous

            As noted, Gabbert & Locker were both top 10 picks (read closely Chuck).

            Also, did you forget about Joey Harrington? He went #3 after David Carr was selected #1 overall in 2002. How about ’99 when Couch, McNabb & Akili Smith went 1, 2, 3?

            Do you still like your odds???

            I can see I’m not getting through to you, so let’s try looking at the 2nd QB off the board over the past several years (I will only include top 10 picks):

            2011: Jake Locker
            2010: None (Tebow went 25th)
            2009: Mark Sanchez
            2008: None (Flacco went 18th)
            2007: None (Brady Quinn went 22nd)
            2006: Matt Leinart
            2005: None (Jason Campbell 25th)
            2004: Phillip Rivers
            2003: Byron Leftwich
            2002: Joey Harrington
            2001: None (Drew Brees went 33rd)
            2000: None (Chad Pennington 18th)
            1999: Donovan McNabb (Couch #1 Akili Smith #3)

            So, maybe RG3 turns out to be the next Phillip Rivers, but the odds are simply not in his favor. You should be glad Snyder took the bait.

          • Anonymous

            you said: “I’m not basing it on QB’s taken in the top 3, I’m basing it on 2 QB’s going in the top 5.”

            that standard was flawed.

            now you have expanded it to Top 10 picks (which obviously have a higher chance of failing, as evidenced by all teams that passed on the guys for their presumable flaws).

            hence, this “2nd QB in the top 10″ is even more flawed.

            and BTW, Jake Locker is good.

          • Anonymous

            I also said:”Just for fun, let’s take a look at some of the guys taken in the top 10 recently,” but thanks for repeating what I said before that.
            If you want to stick to the 2 QB’s in the top 5, it still doesn’t look better than 50 percent. You have Rivers & McNabb or Sanchez, Harrington, Akili Smith, Tim Couch. The point is, Washington is taking a HUGE risk and their odds are not as good as you seem to think.

          • Anonymous

            i am choosing to not go back past 10 years. 1) it helps prove my point. 2) I think the recent success of top QBs is indicative of scouts improving at identifying chances of success.

            but just to clarify, I don’t want to you use your flawed 2 QBs in 1 draft thing. it doesn’t make sense. what makes sense is to consider the recent success of players that the Mel Kipers of the world say are “can’t miss” and that are being praised as the next great thing. And recent history says there is a pretty damn high success rate…..or at least certainly better than a coinflip.

          • Anonymous

            I think you are wrong; it makes plenty of sense. I’m more concerned with actual results than the opinions of the Mel Kipers of the world before these kids have even played a down in the NFL.
            We’ll see where Washington is in 5 years. I think you’ll be happy that the Browns missed out on this draft’s overhyped flavor of the month.

          • Anonymous

            well, i hope you are right.

          • Anonymous

            Me too; good chat Chuck, hope all is well.

            -Lil’ Shaver

          • Anonymous

            and i should note the reason for using a “picks 1-3″ standard as being far more logical to a top 10, if this remains unclear: the higher a guy is drafted generally is consistent with the lack of perceived flaws in the persons game. When a guy goes #2 like this year, only the Colts and Rams are passing (and that is because they have who they believe to be a franchise guy). Nobody else passed.

            In the case of a guy like Matt Ryan (#3) 2 teams passed: the dolphins (who continue to suffer the consequences of not having a QB) and the Rams who thought they had a guy in Bulger.

            Meanwhile, when you start heading down the draft board, you have almost half the teams in the league passing on the guy before a Matt Leinart was drafted. Teams with QB problems still didn’t see him as a solution. But in that top 2-4 picks, those guys lack the noticeable flaws to be passed on.

          • Anonymous

            So, Tim Couch, Akili Smith and Joey Harrington had no apparent flaws, got it. Thanks Chuck!

    • http://twitter.com/cpmack Chris M

      We DEFINITELY have a worse run franchise? Why, because the Redskins have averaged 1 more win per season than the Browns since Randolph inherited the team?

      I would hardly call that definitive.

      Besides, I like to pile on Snyder because he’s made way more boneheaded moves than intelligent ones, and he makes them every single year.

      • Anonymous

        yes, we definitely have the worse run franchise. sort of a bumfight situation, but true nonetheless.

  • Anonymous

    i can’t believe how many of you are giving h + h a pass because it’s allegedly impossible to beat snyder at negotiating.

    it just goes from bad to worse: first we were afraid to even go after rg3 for fear he would be a bust, then we were afraid to negotiate for him because big scary dan snyder was bidding against us???????????????????????????

    like i said before: there is NO LIGHT for the brownies when we are being run by a pack of babies.

    (this is big scary dan, btw)

    • Anonymous

      it’s not only impossible, it’s downright good business to not get outSyndered.. it seems to me that the Browns made their evaluations and followed the Rams alleged request to give their best offer.. so they apparently offered the most they were willing to give before they felt the risks were not worth the reward.. and Snyder outSnydered them.. why is it so complicated??? they gave them the 2nd best offer in NFL history!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

    • http://twitter.com/cpmack Chris M

      Meanwhile, Big Scary Dan Snyder is still busy taking the homes of his season ticket holders who can’t afford to keep the tickets. The story is a little dated, but it still goes on.

      http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/09/02/AR2009090203887.html

      (This is also big scary Dan)

    • Anonymous

      i also dont buy the concept that this was some one-time secret auction for the pick. i presume STL came back to Holmgren and said “this is the skins offer…since we like your #4 better than their #6 match their other future picks and the pick is yours”

      and they decided not to match.

      • Anonymous

        that may be the case, and if it were, I also don’t buy the concept that the Rams wouldn’t have gone right back to Snyder and see if he would outSnyder the Browns offer.. in the end, we got Snydered

        • Anonymous

          I feel like I’m in bizaro world that this even has to be said.

          DUH!!

          If you want to carp about it, state your top price and how you know it is the highest price any bidder would have been willing to offer.

          This is getting stooooopid.

        • http://twitter.com/cpmack Chris M

          This.

      • Anonymous

        you have to remember in the math that the second #1 was probably counted lower than Washinton’s random one next year.

    • Anonymous

      P, first, what is the highest price would you have been willing to pay?

      Second, how do you know Snyder wouldn’t be willing to pay more than that?

      There is all this carping about “not having the will” or “not getting it done” or “not beating Snyder.” That’s all hogwash. Griff was worth 3 firsts to the Browns, and no more. That would have basically been the highest price ever paid for any draft pick ever. He was worth 3 firsts and a second to Washington, possibly more, possibly much more. Turning this into some moral “unwillingness to win” is silly. What are your numbers?

    • Anonymous

      Ummm…. the Redskins front office is the worst:

      @AdamSchefter:

      Redskins lose $36 million in space. Can split it over 2012 and 2013 any way they want. More at ESPN.

  • Alexb

    so some mike vick like cat was gonna come in and all of a sudden dominate the AFC North? are you guys kidding me? Seriously raise your hands if you know the Browns play in the AFC north…..c’mon, don’t be shy raise em up. Good, so that means y’all know the best defenses in the NFL reside up here in the North…..WHERE YOU BUILD A POWER DEFENSE AND A POWER RUNNING GAME FIRST before you bring in ur huckleberry. I don’t care if we traded for Peyton….he’d get killed here in Cleveland. You think Baltimore or Pitt wasn’t gonna catch RG3? They would have bountied that dude up. They would have made it a point to put Clevelands shiny new draft on the shelf for the year. He has to play those dudes 4 times in one season….and if Cincy gets any nastier it’s gonna be 6 of the toughest outs in the NFL.

    Mean, nasty o and d lineman….thats where this starts.

    • Anonymous

      and ends! well done sir!

    • Anonymous

      “Mean, nasty o and d lineman….thats where this starts.”

      I’m among the oldest (if not The oldest) SOB that posts here with any semi-regularity and let me just say that your position is dated, old and outmoded (i.e., behind the times).

      Today’s NFL (1977 rules changes started the leagues continuing pussification) is a pass first, pass second and pass always league. To win in such a league the first thing you need, obviously, is a a damn good passer. The Brownies haven’t had one since Kosar and it’s no coincidence they haven’t been no damn good since Kosar left.

      A great QB/passer raises all boats, just like the high tide. Even recent history should teach you this: pre & post Favre Vikings, pre & post Warner Rams & Cards, etc.

      • Anonymous

        yeah Tom Brady sure passed pretty well in the Super Bowl.. while Eli played exceptionally, that game was won in the trenches..

        • Anonymous

          You made my point. Two great QB’s brought their teams to the SB. Either team could have won (remember Welker’s drop?).

          • Anonymous

            >>>Two great QB’s brought their teams to the SB.>>>

            That’s one of several ways to look at it, but probably not much more valid that “two great teams brought their QB’s to the super bowl.” Especially Eli. Eli is about on par with Alex Smith in my book. But of course, if that kick returner doesn’t have multiple brain farts, suddenly Alex Smith is “great” too.

          • Anonymous

            “That’s one of several ways to look at it, but probably not much more valid that “two great teams brought their QB’s to the super bowl.”

            I’m not buying that – substitute Colt mcCoy for Captain America & the Pats are maybe 6-10. Eli brought the G-men back multiple times during the season with late 4th qtr drives.

      • Alexb

        That’s why SF went out and built themselves a wolf pack 3-4 and a power running game……in a division where the “west coast” was invented. I’m not discounting the need for a good or great qb….but it “starts” with those mean nasty trench specialists that either A) protect the qb or B) kill him.

        Yes NE has Tom Brady but they’ve always been nasty on the O and D line, something they don’t get alot of credit for cause of golden boy.

        And you don’t have to be cheap shot artists to be “mean and nasty”.

        • https://twitter.com/jimkanicki jimkanicki

          likelikelikelike.

          when conventional wisdom is so complete re: ‘qb-driven-league’ that is the exact time to go the other direction. id thrilled beyond reason if we wound up with richardson/adams in an attempt to recreate this.

          in fact, id take it a step further and would be happy if they draft decastro at #4 -if our scouts think he’s got transcendent schafrath/hickerson pulling guard potential- and then trade up into the teens to take richardson.

          #kansascityshuffle.

          • Anonymous

            I do think we’re at peak pass, and I wonder if a league that actively manages competitiveness is going to pause at this deal. Not nix it, but just see it as an unhealthy sign. The meme that “my team has no chance because we don’t have one of these eight guys” has to concern them, and when multiple teams are willing to mortgage the future for a shot at the second best QB….

            I tend to think the prices of the passing game and the proliferation of hyper-complex 3-4 defenses is begging someone to buck the trend and go caveman. We’re not in the absolutely best division for it, but nonetheless, I wouldn’t mind Cleveland being that team.

          • https://twitter.com/jimkanicki jimkanicki

            even the ‘not the best division to go caveman’ popular thinking can be challenged. not sure which defense has more 10+ yr vets, bal or pit, but theyre both approaching a period of decline… (cincy defense, otoh, is on the up.)

            but i think we’re sync’d on the main point: start a new trend, dont try to catch up to a 20 year old one.

            i have no reason to expect this regime to think outside the box at all… but just sayin.. it’d be nice.

          • Anonymous

            “but i think we’re sync’d on the main point: start a new trend, dont try to catch up to a 20 year old one.”

            No, no no!

            There’s a damn good, market-driven reason the Rams got all those picks for their #2 and why last year 4 of the top 12 and 6 of the first 36 picks were QB’s.

            The rules of the game, and the ref’s and leagues interpretations of the rules, have changed so much that its a completely different game. Defenses have been largely emasculated by these changes & the passing game has been given the green light. In my opinion the future will be even more so as concussion hysteria reaches new levels.

            Accept this or be forever doomed to an endless string of 4-12, 5-11 seasons & watching our offense perform makes your hair hurt.

  • Anonymous

    For everyone who thinks the Redskins front office should be applauded for their aggressive approach:

    Adam Schefter ‏ @AdamSchefter

    Cowboys lose $10 million in cap space, Redskins lose $36 million in space. Can split it over 2012 and 2013 any way they want. More at ESPN.

    If that’s true, they may want to back out of that cute little RG3 deal.

    • Anonymous

      joey, zasa!

  • http://twitter.com/cpmack Chris M

    More Dan Snyder success stories today.

    Per Schefter:
    NFL is taking away millions of dollars of salary-cap space from Cowboys and Redskins for how they front-loaded deals during uncapped year. Redskins lose $36 million in space. Can split it over 2012 and 2013 any way they want.

    Huzzah!

    • Anonymous

      They may be regretting that trade already.

    • Anonymous

      hmm, don’t know enough about the new salary cap rules.. but they are reportedly currently $31.1m under.. it certainly can’t be good news for the FO.. unless Snyder can just pay some tax to get out of it, which i’m sure he will now that he’s pot committed..

      • Anonymous

        Wow. STL must be dancing in the streets. Wonder if they had any whiff of this beforehand.

        • http://twitter.com/cpmack Chris M

          The funny thing is, the league season doesn’t start until tomorrow (which is the earliest the deal could be official). Washington could still pull the plug on the deal if they really wanted to.

          • Anonymous

            wow, could this be similar to the CP3 trade nix??? little coitus interruptus for little Danny boy???

        • Anonymous

          “Wonder if they had any whiff of this beforehand” hmmm, verrrrrry interesting! now that’s an angle i would love someone shrew journalist to follow up on. if MKC can get the scoop on that she would be my hero!

          but actually, now that i have had more time to think about it.. it’s much easier to just repeatedly call the Browns front office babies, incompetent, stupid and every or any and every other synonymous adjective.. DERP

        • Anonymous

          If Washington had any clue about this before the trade then that makes it even dumber than it seemed at first. They are going to have a hell of a time trying to surround that poor kid with talent without any cap space or draft picks. If I were RG3, I’d pull an Eli/Elway.

          • http://twitter.com/cpmack Chris M

            NO CAP SPACE AND NO DRAFT PICKS? WHAT’RE WE GONNA DO, COOCH?

          • Anonymous

            Assuming they don’t back out of the trade, this pretty much slams the door on Shanahan turning it around for Washington. He will be fired by the end of 2013 and RG3 will be well on his way to being one of the biggest disappointments in NFL history.

            Too bad for him, really, he seems like a nice young man.

          • Anonymous

            it certainly makes it tougher on him, but i’m not going to play the crystal ball game like many of the others do around here. the bottom line is that his asking price was way too much. of course it would be great to see him be an epic failure, to make us feel better about not giving the moon for him, but i have no ill will on the kid, definitely seems like a nice young man..

          • Anonymous

            No ill will towards RG3 at all; he seems like a great kid. I just don’t see things turning out very well for him in DC.

          • Anonymous

            WOW

    • Anonymous

      and as it pertains to Brownies, we get $1.6m added to the cap, add the $2m we added by cutting Pashos we’re up to $21.5m.. HOLLA

  • Mike

    Frowns, I agree with most of what you say (Eric Mangini is the stuff, Tony Grossi is not, etc.). But I fear you may be grossly mistaken on Colt McCoy. Here’s a good read from Football Outsiders: http://footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2011/introducing-lewin-career-forecast-v20. Their model explains about 60% of the variance among QBs drafted in the first 3 rounds. McCoy’s analytics, as you can see, are absolutely off the charts. That’s not to say he’s a slam-dunk — 60% isn’t 100% — but don’t you think it might merit giving him a third season (the breakout season for many QBs), rather than giving away 3 1sts and a 2nd? I just don’t want this to be another Brady Quinn situation — some0ne who could be the guy but never really gets the chance.

    • Mike

      Of course, the trade is made, so we don’t really have a choice… But I’d like to hear your rebuttal to the analytics argument.

      • Anonymous

        My rebuttal to the analytics argument is that this particular analytic is garbage, at least as applied to Colt. Look at what it measures. Number of college games started is “the most important variable in the equation,” that also measures, completion percentage, how pass-happy an offense is, and whether the QB played in a BCS conference. Of course Colt would be off the charts here having started since his freshman year at Texas, playing for years in a pass-first spread loaded with four and five star athletes against teams that play no defense. This metric was made for him.

        • Anonymous

          LCF 3.0 to include concussions, holographic transdermal chips, overbearing fathers. It was all a dream, I used to read Word Up magazine.

        • Anonymous

          yeah, kind of like the defenses that RG3 played against.. (5 of the BOTTOM 25)

        • Mike

          So your rebuttal to the analytics argument is that he does really well in it? Also, FO isn’t picking those variables randomly. They didn’t just happen to pick the variables Colt did well in. Rather, Colt happened to do well in the variables that, objectively, are very good at predicting QB performance. Conclusive? No. Good enough to merit more than one and a half starting seasons? I think so.

          • Anonymous

            It’s easy to understand why they’d pick those variables, and also easy to understand why they wouldn’t apply to Colt when you look at why he started four years, the system he played in, etc. None of it says he can read an NFL defense, and it certainly doesn’t say he can throw a deep out.

            Colt proves the obvious exception to this metric, and then they’ll throw it out to make a new one, just like they did with the last one. That’s how this works.

            Watch the games.

          • Anonymous

            also in every statistic there is an outlier that in the face of average, outperforms or underperforms.

    • Anonymous

      yeah but.. he doesn’t pass the “eye test”…. i mean no way in holy hell that kid can possibly improve, can he????? i mean he regressed in year 2 and now he’s supposed to do better???? (jokes, i’m all for giving him another year with obviously some more weapons and hopefully health at his disposal)

      • Anonymous

        The eyeball test is the most important test of all.

  • Josh Curtis

    Frowns, you nailed this one. For a chance at RGIII, the one year without a first rounder is an extremely small price to pay. The Browns were in the driver seat, had every conceivable advantage to pull the trigger. It’s just too bad that the Lamonte family clientele doesn’t reach into the Rams organization, which I suppose is the Browns fault seeing as they have hired all those guys anyways, but I digress.
    Phil Savage would have made this trade, and I don’t know if that makes me feel better or worse about this whole thing.
    With all that being said, the Browns need weapons. I don’t like Flynn anymore than McCoy, so if we are going to go with a small, weak armed QB, lets go with the one already on the roster. I hope Heckert will hit on our first 3 picks that will hinder the opposing defense from putting 10 men in the box. With or without the release of Pashos, a RT needs to be brought in. Plus depth on the DL, linebackers, secondary, RB’s, WR’s… bottom line it’s better to be without RGIII with caproom and extra draft picks than be without him with nothing to work with.
    They should have pulled the trigger on RGIII, but I have a feeling Snyder and Co. were not going to miss out on this opportunity either way.

    • Anonymous

      >>>They should have pulled the trigger on RGIII, but I have a feeling Snyder and Co. were not going to miss out on this opportunity either way.>>>

      This was the “either way.” Or maybe you can explain how offering the highest trade value for any draft pick ever ever in history constitutes “not pulling the trigger.”

  • Anonymous

    “What it really would have cost the Browns to land RG3 in Cleveland”

    Let’s try that again.

    “What I’ve unilaterally decided it would cost to land RG3 in Cleveland; Because everyone knows that a final auction price means if you were willing to spend $1 dollar more than the winning bidder’s final price then that’s what you would have had to pay. Of course; And also, if you got a dollar for 50 cents in 1989, then that dollar is only worth 50 cents today, not the $1.32 your bank account says. So the Browns sold out our future for 50 cents and the Redskins are the bestest.”

    There go. No charge.

    • Anonymous

      It’s really not crazy at all to think that we could have had him for close to the same price at which the Rams actually got him. Maybe we have to throw in a fourth rounder or two? We got two extras of those in last year’s trade, too. Anyway, I understand that the bidding war thing makes you feel better, and we’ll really never know, so it’s understandable that you’d want to focus on that.

      Anyway, however you want to spin it, for the price that he actually went was still only part of what the Browns got for last year’s #1, plus one more #1. It would have been just one draft without a #1, and one draft without a #2. Who knows when such preparation will meet such opportunity again, but I can’t remember the last time the Browns were in such a good position to make this kind of move. That’s the point, not a controversial one, and it’s telling that you’re being so pissy about it while also being in full agreement with Biki.

      • Anonymous

        God, you two are annoying. I suppose if the Browns had been equally as tenacious, there’d be nothing left but the kitchen sink and Tony Pashos. Wait…

      • Anonymous

        “while also being in full agreement with Biki” and 74% of the voting public on ESPN. which actually makes me quite nervous since my winning gambling theory for the past 2 seasons has been betting against the public, especially when it’s 70% or higher.. however, as a wise man once told me, the public gotta win sometimes too.. so we’ll see how it plays out.. this $36m hit to their cap certainly doesn’t help your boy out that’s for sure.. care to make in interesting Frownie? i’m sure we can come up with something to be able to compare first year value of RG3 versus the first 3 guys we draft (or possibly more should we trade down)

      • http://twitter.com/cpmack Chris M

        The thing that we’ve been saying all day long here is that once this turns into a bidding war with Dan Snyder, he will win. Damn the torpedoes, there is nothing that will stop him from that which he covets. But the thing is, the bidding war never happened.

        In Peter King’s column today, he explained the entire thing:

        [Rams rookie GM Les] Snead was honest with the two teams most involved, Washington and Cleveland, and the third (Miami) on the periphery. He told them they were going to make a deal by the close of business Thursday, and they needed to make their best offer. According to one of the teams involved, Washington made an offer beyond what St. Louis ever thought it’d get — three first-round picks and a second-rounder. Cleveland offered something less, thought to be three ones. (It’s unknown what Miami’s best offer was, though the Dolphins wanted Manning, and so never got to the level of the Redskins.)

        The Rams might have gotten more by telling the Browns what Washington’s offer was, but Snead had promised each side he wouldn’t play one bid against another but rather simply ask for each team’s best offer. Once Washington’s offer was better than Cleveland’s, the deal was done.

        So can we please kill the expectations we seem to have that Heckert should have read Snyder’s mind and offered an extra 2nd (and 3rd?) round pick? Offering 3 first round picks to move up 2 spots has never happened before, so I would credit Heckert with swinging for the fences and not being a pussy and making “the safe move”.

        Any discussion that says anything along the lines of “Well Heckert should know how crazy Snyder is and offered more” is total bullshit.

        The only thing that I feel is peculiar about this whole situation is how Snyder magically knew to throw in a 2nd round pick with the rest of his bounty. It’s almost like someone tipped him off and gave him a heads up.

        • Anonymous

          Not buying that King report at all. There was no good reason for the Rams to have approached it that way.

          • Edudak76

            What possible motive could King have had to make up this story. Occassionally there are people who deal honestly with all comers and this situation appears to have been that. Until you hear a definative story on what the Browns did or did not offer and how the negotiations fro the trade actually were, you simply appear to be spewing sour grapes at a front office we all know you dislike for its handling of Eric Mangini. I happen to agree on that score. However, in this case, the Browns reportedly offered a higher price for a single draft pick than has ever been offered before. That indicates a desire to win. They got outbid. At some point the on-upsmanship has to stop and the law of kdiminishing returns kicks in. It becomes counterproductive to the model chosen by H&H to rebuild this franchise. They have been successful in two consecutive drafts and we have no reason to believe they will not hit upon these top three to four picks as well leaving us that much closer to closing the talent gap with our division.

            As well, Colt McCoy was not a loser in college nor has he carried himself that way in the NFL. He has had a tougher row to hoe than nearly any other non-expansion-drafted QB in recent memory having to play in three different offensive systems in three years, not having an offseason program to learn perhaps the most demanding and challenging offense for a NFL QB, while suffering through the pain of a rookie head coach and a decimated, ineffective offensive line and four different RBs.

            I am not saying Colt is the answer or that RGIII would not have been. But an objective view of the deal indicates the Browns set a max price they were willing to pay in order to get RGII and the Redskins exceeded it. We will now move forward, likely with Colt as the starter with a more complete and familiar team and staff.

            Let the chips fall where they may.

          • Anonymous

            People need to learn how to read. I never said there’s no “desire to win” here. I’m just pointing out that the Redskins got RG3 for what the Browns traded last year’s #1 for plus one more pick, that the Browns were in as good a position as possible to make this trade, and didn’t.

            King said he got his story from a source at “one of the teams involved.” It’s really hard to believe that the Rams would take only one bid from each team.

          • Anonymous

            I totally agree that there is no way in hell Stl actually would stick to that ultimatum even if it’s true that they gave it. So in my mind that part of the argument is about nothing.

            But I have no idea how in that case you think the bidding was going to end where it did. I’d be happy if anyone who is carping about this would just plainly state how many picks they would give up. More than 3 1’s and a 2 for sure. So is it 4 1’s? 5? Do we need to hire Lebron James to count these off for us?

            Secondly, whatever the number is, explain how you know Snyder wouldn’t have given up more than that number, preferably backed up by some one instance of when he’s ever been outbid for anything in his entire disastrous tenure.

            I don’t mean to be pissy, but this just seems like pure disappointment + vague resentment talking. The Browns gave an offer that in the absence of Snyder would have had everyone in the league saying “wow, I can’t believe they went there.” I feel like I’m as high on Griff as anyone here, I’m plenty disappointed, and not only would I not have upped Snyder’s “final” offer, I wouldn’t have made the Brown’s offer. That was a very very VERY aggressive offer. A historically aggressive offer.

          • http://twitter.com/cpmack Chris M

            Sure there is. The stock on that draft pick will have dropped significantly after 4pm today, should the Redskins or Browns sign a free agent quarterback. They didn’t want anyone getting cold feet and backing out, or their haul would have been significantly less. So they created their own deadline, and Dan Snyder (and the Browns, apparently) panicked.

            Anyone could see that the Rams wanted that deal done immediately, as they should. You can plainly see that it worked out very well for them.

          • Anonymous

            That still doesn’t explain why they’d only take one bid from each team. It’s not hard to imagine they could have received multiple bids in advance of today’s deadline.

          • http://twitter.com/cpmack Chris M

            I’m sure that St. Louis knows like most of us do that people don’t get into bidding wars with Dan Snyder and win. I thought St Louis played it perfectly, considering that they took down an epic, record breaking haul to move down 4 spots in the draft. There’s no evidence that the Browns would have even gotten involved if it were an open bidding war with Snyder, and there’s even less evidence that St Louis would have taken down more picks if it had been.

            Unless the Browns clear the air and dispute this story (which would be smart from a PR standpoint, all but guaranteeing that it won’t happen), I have no reason to believe that King isn’t telling the truth.

            Nothing that I’ve read anywhere, including here, has me convinced that we should be upset with a Browns front office who took a home run swing and hit it to the warning track.

            There are plenty of reasons to be upset with the Browns, but I strongly believe that this isn’t one of them.

          • Anonymous

            ??? So the whole thing would have blown up if the Rams would have called the Browns and said “Washington is offering an extra second rounder, can you beat that?”

            That makes absolutely no sense. Also, this is the first time anyone has ever heard a report that a high profile trade negotiation went this way.
            There’s no reason for the Browns to refute this report. It helps them if folks believe that the Rams conducted negotiations in this insane way. They can just shrug their shoulders and say they never had a chance. Like you and everyone else are doing.

          • http://twitter.com/cpmack Chris M

            http://www.google.com/search?q=dan+snyder+bidding+war

            “So the whole thing would have blown up if the Rams would have called the Browns and said “Washington is offering an extra second rounder, can you beat that?”

            In a word, yes. Why do you think it would have stopped there? The Browns would have topped it, and Snyder would have thrown more their way. Or the Browns would have bowed out gracefully before it ever started, leaving St Louis without any leverage. Losing a sealed bid process happens to the best occasionally.

            “Also, this is the first time anyone has ever heard a report that a high profile trade negotiation went this way.

            This doesn’t make it wrong, it makes it genius. Record haul by the Rams.

            Pete, you know I love to crucify this regime for anything I perceive as a mistake. I really don’t know what else could have been done here.

          • Believelander

            #1: shitting the bed.

      • Anonymous

        >>>It’s really not crazy at all to think that we could have had him for close to the same price at which the Rams actually got him>>>

        No, it’s not crazy, since that price is already pretty wild. It’s just a question of how wild you think Snyder will get. That’s hard to predict, and that headline is pretty definitive Monday morning QB stuff.

        >>> the price that he actually went was still only part of what the Browns got for last year’s #1>>>

        This continues to sound weird to me. So if STL turns around next year and trades 3 #1’s and a 2 for the second pick, that means the “real” price for that pick is…um…free…because that was the value of their second pick this year? Yeah, it’s possible to look at it that way, it just seems a little weird to completely ignore current reality and opportunity cost like that. If the Pat’s traded Brady tomorrow for a 4th round pick, they would be making a profit by that accounting standard.

        >>>Who knows when such preparation will meet such opportunity again>>>

        As Washington has shown, anytime you want to splay out a ton of #1’s you can, preparation or no. But I do agree that Griffs aren’t there every year, and I am disappointed it didn’t work out. I just can’t put that on the regime.

  • Anonymous

    “I just don’t want this to be another Brady Quinn situation — some0ne who could be the guy but never really gets the chance.”

    Eh? Did Brady become successful somewhere after leaving the Browns when I wasn’t paying attention?

    (edit: thought I had replied to Mike. I just want to say I accept full responsibility for this slip-up, even though it’s almost definitely the internet’s fault and not my own.)

  • Anonymous

    I seriously doubt he will be an epic failure, nor would I feel all that much better that our front office offered a historic trade package for a bust.

  • https://twitter.com/jimkanicki jimkanicki

    i really think there’s more than one qb in this draft and the hyperventilating over griffin was/is out of control. glad that heckert/holmgren made a sober assessment, reasonable bid, and didn’t try to up the ante.

    i also think think it wise to look for someone who fits the offense. i’ll be the first to say that there was no recognizable offensive system last year. however if quick release, 3step drop out routes, progressive reads, size, and accuracy are things we want… then, do please check this out.

    http://youtu.be/__GQYD1aRi8

    yeah, it’s an all-star game video. i say again, tho, childress coached the other team in it, so this guy has got to be on his radar.

    my greater point is that i think there will be ‘franchise qbs’ in the 3rd round this year. whether coleman, cousins, or osweiler. my take is that we’re going to come out of this draft with a shiny new qb and i have to think berea already has this in mind.

  • Anonymous

    Zac Jack should look into comedy writing, seriously. Cracks me up sometimes. He and PML should go on the road.

    • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOi3yAdqTYA PittsburghisforManLovers

      I promise you that would be the worst idea ever.

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