Holmgren on 2012: The Year of the “Pretty Good Jump”

by Cleveland Frowns on May 9, 2012

92.3 The Fan’s Bull and Fox did a good job with their interview of Mike Holmgren yesterday afternoon and most of the headlines today are similar to the one here, because Holmgren said that he, “expect[s the Browns] to take a pretty good jump this next season.” No word yet on whether the folks at NFL.com have adjusted their prognosis for 2012 in the wake of this statement, but everybody saw how last season’s “No Excuses” mantra worked out, so.

But it does raise an important question about what happens if the Browns notch only one or two more wins in 2012 but manage to stay competitive in every game but one or two against one of the league’s toughest schedules, and even turn in a pair of dominating wins over two of the best teams in the league. And say this happens even despite a brutal run of injuries, including some that might force the team to do something like use a three-headed rotation of quarterbacks, including a third round rookie, none of whom would start for any other team in the league. Would Holmgren consider it a “pretty good jump” if the 2012 Browns could pull off something like that? We have to assume no.*

Anyway, more troubling, Holmgren’s statements about mentoring in response to a question about the Seneca Wallace thing:

“I look at that a little different than some people. You mention Jake Delhomme, Jake played in the league a long time and when he couldn’t play anymore because of the injury he wanted to do something. He wanted to. That coaching staff allowed him to take an active role, almost to the point of being an assistant coach. If I was still coaching I wouldn’t do that. The mentor thing is overblown to me. I’m going to coach the player. I’m not going to have another player coach the player. They can be friends but when it comes to what I want him to do on the football field, that’s my call not another player’s call. …  I don’t expect any of those guys to be mentors to anybody. I’m the mentor or the coach is the mentor.”

It’s too bad that Bull or Fox didn’t point out that when Colt McCoy had a head coach who encouraged mentoring, he played twice as well, as a rookie, against a slate of opponents that was twice as tough, than he did as a second-year quarterback under Pat Shurmur. But noted: To Holmgren, “people helping people” is overblown, and something that he discourages.** Heath Evans nods knowingly.

Alrighty, Browns. How can you not love these guys?

Thanks to everyone who came to the Happy Dog last night. We can blame most of what happened on the guy who kept sending shots up to the panel, so special thanks to that guy. Hope everyone is having a decent week. We’ll be back tomorrow or Friday with who knows what.

————–

*Even if you buy the idea that Holmgren had to bring in “his own guy” as a head coach once he was brought in as team president, or a guy who subscribed to the same narrow view as to how to win NFL football games, or from the same “tree” or whatever, it remains unforgivable that he peddled the line that he fired Mangini because the head coach “didn’t win enough.” Also unforgivable that Holmgren never publicly acknowledged that Mangini was fired despite the fact that he had done a very good if not excellent job with what he had to work with in Cleveland. Holmgren will always be the worst until he remedies this.

**From a 2011 piece on Holmgren’s quarterback in Seattle, Matt Hasselbeck, by Doug Farrar at Sportspress Northwest:

As he grew into his role with the Seahawks under a demanding taskmaster in Mike Holmgren, Hasselbeck enjoyed the benefits of mentorship from teammate Trent Dilfer, so he understands the need to pay it forward.

“I was fortunate in my career to be around some great veteran quarterbacks and just learned so much from them,’’ Hasselbeck said. “I’m kind of excited for that kind of an opportunity to maybe be on a team with a really talented young guy and just get the opportunity to pay that forward just a little bit, things that I’ve learned along the way. If I can share that with a really talented guy that’s willing to work and listen, that could be a really fun thing.’’

  • actovegin1armstrong

    Frownie,
    You may have missed the point.
    The Browns fans will be taking a “pretty good jump”, most assuredly from the upper deck.

  • ChuckKoz

    frowns,
    your footnote hits my sentiment exactly. i suppose the reason holmgren won’t admit it, is that he would be admitting that he wasted an entire year of every fans time/money.

    • http://twitter.com/cpmack Chris M

      Instead of admitting a mistake, Holmgren just casually announces that the first year didn’t really count. I get so incensed every time I think about that statement.

      • kjn

        The guy has such an ego. Not only is he unable to own a mistake, he can’t even conceive that someone else might have helpful advice to give to his QB.

        • http://twitter.com/cpmack Chris M

          A few of those things that Heath Evans claimed about Holmgren seem to keep rearing their head in subtle ways.

      • Kamov

        I would say that you need to work on your anger issues, but I got incensed being reminded of that statement.

      • BIKI024

        who knows how much pressure Lerner had on Holmgren for keeping Mangini around as well. he may not want to sell his boss down the river. Fact is, everyone and their grandma knows it was a mistake, most of us, and the media thought Mangini was a goner. but gotta give it to EM, he certainly knows how to give a good interview, he def did a great job of impressing Holmgren so they gave it a shot. unfortunately, NFL precedent was not about to be set (teams going on to success with lame duck coach working for new regime), especially not in Cleveland, at least not until Wahoo is gone..

      • rodofdisaster

        It counted for somebody…

    • ClevelandFrowns

      That, and that he’d be so reckless with another man’s career. It’s profoundly disgusting all the way around.

      • BIKI024

        another man’s career who had a year to try to build some chemistry with his boss, GM Tom Heckert. afterall they do need to have the same vision on what type of players to bring in, and also build the scouting team who they feel fully understand thet type of players they are looking for. it’s pretty clear how Heckert wants to run this team, he immediately cleaned house and brought in guys who fit their philosophy. every other team in the NFL does the same exact thing. Even Mangini did it when he built his staff. but god forbid Holmgren and Heckert do the same.

  • thatsfine

    We’re all expecting a big jump in Holmgren’s first second year, Shurmur’s second first year, and Childress’ first fist year.

    I do like that Bull/Fox asked what would happen if there were only 3 wins this year, though I doubt anything resembling a firm answer was expected.

    • Beeej

      Don’t forget it is also Weeden’s rookie year.

      • ClevelandFrowns

        His first one.

        • Kamov

          Do you think he’ll bring it up as an excuse for his play?

          • ClevelandFrowns

            I’m hopeful that for the time being we’re through with quarterbacks who do that, though we know too well that anything is possible.

          • Kamov

            Well, considering we went about eleventeen quarterbacks without it being brought up, I guess it is reasonable to think that even lousy NFL players can at least be professional about it.

  • kjn

    Big Mike just gave his critics the rope to hang him with if things don’t go well this fall.

  • Brian Sipe

    WOW… T Rich was great on KNR today… Love that guy…. says all the right things

  • CleveLandThatILove

    It’s my understanding that Shurmur will be on Baskin/Phelps tomorrow. Of course they won’t let Kiley/Booms or Bull/Fox anywhere near him.

    • http://twitter.com/cpmack Chris M

      Why would they? Chuck Booms can’t articulate a thought without shouting at the top of his lungs. Not exactly an ideal situation for Shurmur, or really anyone with an IQ over 75.

  • Ess Eh

    wow! looking at the tweet tweet and see that the last time North Carolina amended its constitution on marriage was to ban interracial marriage.

    North Carolina: First in flight… Last in Civil Rights

    • Beeej

      North Carolina: Where you can marry your cousins. Just not your gay cousins.

    • NeedsFoodBadly

      yikes, talk about being on the wrong side of history.

    • ClevelandFrowns

      Yup. http://think-progress.tumblr.com/post/22721779789/from-north-carolinas-charlotte-observer-the-last

      Also, don’t get it twisted. The Wright Brothers are from Ohio.

      • Ess Eh

        Of course, I know they are. That’s why we are the “Birthplace of Aviation”, but they made their flight in NC, hence, NC’s license plate slogan of” First in Flight”

        • ClevelandFrowns

          They just didn’t want to risk ruining one of Ohio’s pristine beaches with any airplane wreckage. I don’t know why that’s something for NC to brag about.

        • Kamov

          Not just the Wrights, but also John Glenn and Neil Armstrong! NC pretty much has windy beaches and cavepeople – good job NC.

      • ChuckKoz

        obama just announced gay marriage support….someone must have finally shown him that cartoon.

        • CleveLandThatILove

          Isn’t it against his religion(s)?

          • ChuckKoz

            maybe he finally realized that the government giving a marriage certificate has nothing to do with whether your church decides to accept your marriage.

            but nice little attempted dig, especially with the muslim inference. i anxiously await your birth certificate comments next.

            either way, good luck with that whole being embarrassingly on the wrong side of history thing.

          • CleveLandThatILove

            Or maybe his donors were drying up.

          • BIKI024

            gamble for Obama, but they certainly got some good data that this could get him a lot of people on fence, and certainly get gay rights sympathizers who typically may not vote to come out of the closet for him, i mean vote..

          • ChuckKoz

            North Carolina is one of the 2 most important and closest swing states (w/ OH).

            just yesterday NC voted against gay marriage by 20%.

            this is bad politics for Obama.

            so all the “i bet it was political (polls well)” or “it will help him fundraise” is basically nonsensical.

            he needs to win NC. it is so important that he put his convention there. and he just totally alienated himself with a huge segment of swing voters.

            it seems he actually just did the right thing, damn the consequences

            (i mean, sure, he will take a few extra happy base members and their donations, but the negatives absolutely outweigh the positives as their is nothing more important than those 20% of swing voters in NC that he just alienated.)

          • CleveLandThatILove

            Who gives a crap what BO “believes” about anything that matters to any given demographic? He and I are exactly the same age, and I have known what I believe for quite some time now. In the past 6 years, he is on record with this issue as being in favor, undecided, against, and now in favor.

            Yes, I’m just me and he is the leader of our country, but doesn’t it rattle you just a little that on any given day we do not have a sense of what this guy might do?

            I don’t know about you, but I feel most secure in knowing that whoever is driving the bus- be it my employer, my parents, etc- knows how to drive, and knows where to go. That is the definition of a leader.

          • Kamov

            CLTIL:
            If your requirement of a leader is that they not change their mind, you’re going to be a bit starved of choice w/Romney as the alternative.

          • ChuckKoz

            i changed my position on gay marriage in the past 10 years, too. just look at the polling: a lot of people have changed their minds.

          • ChuckKoz

            “if Romney were a real leader he would have never ‘flip flopped’ and started allowing blacks into his mormon church in 1978″

            - CTIL’s logic

          • CleveLandThatILove

            It’s one thing to flip, we all change our minds as we mature and experience life. It’s the flop back to the original position, or somewhere in between, that is the problem. You can’t keep voting “Present” when you’re the leader of the country.

            FWIW, I am not thrilled about Romney either.

          • ChuckKoz

            for crips sake, still with the “present” crap. what’s next, “he’s never had a real job” or a “community organizer” dig?????

            the guy is the freaking president. he has made all sorts of tough calls (see OBL murder) and has never voted present when congress has given him something.

            this isn’t 2008 anymore, so feel free to update your rolodex of arguments against him.

            and if your standard for the president is this consistency/leadership thing, then you are the biggest hypocrite alive if you would even consider voting for Romney.

            so just say what it is: you believe in the republican views so you will always vote for them over a democrat. don’t try to make it some profound thing that you have some great standard of integrity that Obama can’t meet.

            oh, and by the way, Romney flip flopped on gay marriage, too….and a bunch of other important things…

            http://www.businessinsider.com/14-bald-faced-mitt-romney-flip-flops-that-were-dug-up-by-john-mccain-2012-1?op=1

          • BIKI024

            @ChuckKoz: you can blame Biden for why Pres. Obama came out now. way too much pressure to know his stance after the vote in NC after the VP went on record. they wanted to wait until the Convention to announce it and get a bump at that point.

            but i think this is far bigger than just the voters in NC, while it is certainly an important swing state, there are far many more donors and independent voters in the 49 other states that may be more inclined to pour funds into his coffers (and votes) now that he is on record for marriage equality. he has plenty of time to woo NC swing voters over, especially with what I’m sure we’ll see will be a much bigger war chest for ads, events, etc.

          • ChuckKoz

            biki,

            i get that as the argument, but i just don’t agree. the idea that gays were so discontent and keeping their pockets closed seems inaccurate to me.

            romney has a serious enthusiasm problem w/ evangelicals in rural VA/NC/OH. well, obama just handed them an issue to care about: war on marriage….the very issue that delivered Bush the presidency in 2004.

            obviously, i am just an amateur analyst and they are the big money decision makers, but that doesnt mean they are right.

            i still think BO wins, but that is based on the economy (and unemployment) staying the right direction. if it goes the wrong way, romney wins. but where it stagnates this can be a toss up election and maybe this matters. we’ll see.

          • BIKI024

            Chuck, not just “gays” but there are plenty of marriage equality sympathizers who are not gay but who have been turned off by not just gay marriage but many of Pres Obama’s policies that went against many of the reasons why they voted for him last time to victory.

            dissiregardless, while the polling show’s it’s pretty even, i really don’t see how Obama can blow this. but i do feel they feel they are losing grip on a lot of the independents who have been turned off by many of his policies, including gay marriage and they are doing what they can to pay it back (and forward) to give him another 4 years..

          • Kamov

            In view of CLTIL’s potential descent into hypocrisy (not that we ALL haven’t made that leap already), I think this is a good time to bring up the problem with “first past the post” voting. A country of our size should not be thinking that two choices can fully define the national interest. We need some sort of reform – I would love to have runoff elections with candidates weeded out based on dropping the lowest finisher (or finishers below a certain threshold, to save time). We’re extremely wealthy and can afford this – Personally, I believe that if we switched to a better voting system, the additional election costs would be made up for by the better leadership that would result due to the increased competition.

            Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-past-the-post_voting

            -Of interest are the “Effects”, and “Criticisms” sections.

          • BIKI024

            just realized the Prez’s Left Coast campaign jaunt was today.. in Seattle now to scoop a couple million and then down to Clooney’s party that’s $40K a head, last count 150 guests.. not bad a bad day. i’m sure there will be some congratulatory handshakes filled with imaginary “more to come” slips.. especially if John Travolta is there, that guy finally caught a break.

          • ChuckKoz

            Kamov,
            totally agree on needed reforms. instant runoff is my is my preference, but either is a great upgrade.

            Biki,
            The Clooney (biggest fundraiser ever) was already booked and so are all these immediate things. not saying there is not extra joy and some extra donations coming in, but just think it is way overstated.

            the only theory I like on why his announcement is good is that it dares Romney to jump into social issues and lose focus on the economy (in the event the current recovery stalls). but i still cannot get over alienating all those North Carolina voters.

          • bupalos

            >>Yes, I’m just me and he is the leader of our country, but doesn’t it rattle you just a little that on any given day we do not have a sense of what this guy might do?>>>

            Yeah he’s a real wild and crazy guy. Of all the odd reactions I see from the right the oddest to me is that this guy is some kind of radical “outsider.” Where does that come from?

            We just came off a president that gave back a surplus because he was ideologically opposed to the idea of government paying it’s way and believed “deficits don’t matter,” totally ginned up an extremely damaging and useless war, spent like a drunken version of Jimmy Carter with 3 days to live, and finally signed the United States of America up to that wonderful club of countries that torture people.

            But hey, you never know when scary Obama might suddenly do something radically and unpredictable like…announce he’s come around to personally having no problem with marriage equality just like a small but growing MAJORITY of the country.

            The biggest surprise I’ve seen from the guy was when he strode up the red carpet to announce that OBL finally got what was coming to him. Really, you guys are tough to figure.

          • CleveLandThatILove

            He’s indecisive. I don’t trust him to make the call if, God forbid, we are threatened or attacked. The rest of this crap really doesn’t matter in the long run.

          • Kamov

            What’s your idea of “threatened”? Nutty dictatorships like Iran and N. Korea constantly bluster about attacking multiple countries, us included. China threatens war whenever we call Taiwan “Taiwan” instead of part of China. Obviously threats are not something you can respond to with binary logic like “if threatened, then attack”.

            As far as actually being attacked, I’m starting to think you’re just kidding around here… What president in history has let the U.S. be attacked and just sat back and taken it?

            I can picture it now: “My fellow citizens, L.A. has been attacked by communist terrornazis from Kenya, and since I was secretly born there, I think I’m just gonna let em keep it.”

            It’s really not a legitimate fear, not in the slightest.

          • Petefranklin

            BO’s govt has kept domestic terrorism plots shutout.More than I can say for the previous administration that was too busy dreaming up ways to spend Clintons surplus than to listen to the warnings about terrorism that Clintons outgoing regime left the dolt!

    • kjn

      Glad we have checks and balances.

      My advice: invest in “activist judges outrage”.

    • Max

      just another reason to hate North Carolina, along with their BS speeding laws.

    • actovegin1armstrong

      Esse,
      The Wright brothers built the first airplane just because they were in a hurry to get out of North Carolina.

  • NeedsFoodBadly
  • kjn

    I found this thanks to Google..

    “As he grew into his role with the Seahawks under a demanding taskmaster in Mike Holmgren, Hasselbeck enjoyed the benefits of mentorship from teammate Trent Dilfer, so he understands the need to pay it forward.

    “I was fortunate in my career to be around some great veteran quarterbacks and just learned so much from them,’’ Hasselbeck said.”

    • ClevelandFrowns

      Wonderful.

    • BIKI024

      i never really hear Eli say much about Warner being a mentor to him his rookie year, i wonder how that relationship was like.

  • ClevelandFrowns

    ALERT: Greatest skipper in Tribe history, Lou Brown, spotted in crowd at last night’s game: https://twitter.com/#!/ClevelandFrowns/status/200289332903428096/photo/1

    • Jim

      Yeah well you may run like Mays but you hit like shit.

      • ClevelandFrowns

        We’re out of towels, and I’m too old to go diving into lockers.

        • Jim

          I thought Lou had died, and sure enough:

          http://espn.go.com/espn/page2/index?id=5392552

          So logic being logical and all, that is either a great impersonator at the game, or more likely, we have some Angels In The Outfield type things going on here this season; hence why Tony Sipp is able to strike out major league players.

      • Petefranklin

        Do shitburgers taste better with Stadium Mustard?

  • Captain_Spaulding

    I couldn’t agree more w/ Holmgren re: the notion of players mentoring other players. Off the field is one thing, but as a coach, I would want to be the only voice that my QB is listening to at all times. The most useful mentor is a really good QB that a young guy can sit behind and watch (Brett Favre), not a washed up QB who wants to be a coach in uniform. I think Colt’s regression last year probably had more to do with the lack of an offseason and running game while learning a new playbook than not having Jake Delhomme on hand to mentor him.

    I will also agree that we were all fed a steaming pile of bullshit on the firing of Mangini. Holmgren clearly wasted a year in the development of this team by stringing Mangini along for a year, but I am way past that now and I think everyone else should be as well.

    • kjn

      Mentoring isn’t coaching.

      When people talk about mentoring, I think most mean something other than calling plays or trying to make decisions about what is happening on the field.

      To me, that’s a straw man that nobody in their right mind supports. Nobody wanted Jake to coach Colt, but they did want him to share his experiences and show the kid what he learned as a NFL QB. Saying, “look, these are the ways I approached the game that worked for me” is different than saying, “you should go out there and throw it to this guy”.

      • GrandRapidsRustlers

        Every single time that Colt came off the field Jake was right there waiting for him. Last year Colt got blasted into another dimension 25 feet from the sideline and no one seemed to notice.

      • Captain_Spaulding

        Right, but where does one draw the line?

        I’m all for a veteran QB helping a rookie off the field in meetings, film and preparation, but I would not want Jake Delhomme or anyone else acting as an “assistant coach” on the sidelines. A young QB (or any QB for that matter) has enough to think about during a games without having to listen to multiple voices and opinions on the sideline. There must be a consistent message at all times and a “mentor” on the sideline can be more harmful than helpful in that regard.

        Again, the most useful kind of mentor, and probably the kind that Hasselbeck was refering to (Brett Favre when they were both in GB), is a guy that a young player can sit behind and learn how it’s done before being thrown into the fire. Outside of that, I think the mentor thing is way overblown.

        • eldaveablo

          Slightly different, but I think worth noting – Byron Scott had pretty much the same stance with Kyrie. Scott wanted to be the one influencing him, not Baron Davis.

          • ClevelandFrowns

            Apples and oranges in about six ways.

          • Petefranklin

            Love the avatar elda, I just wish there were some clearer pics of that monumental sacking of the brute. Go Bobcats!

        • kjn

          Yes, the coaches should be the ones coaching and a mentor can be harmful.

          I also agree that it’s overblown and probably not much of a factor. You’re either good enough to play in the NFL or your not. I don’t think any amount of coaching or mentoring will make much of a difference.

          • ClevelandFrowns

            “I don’t think any amount of coaching or mentoring will make much of a difference.

            Nobody’s ever seen one coach get more out of talent than another? God, yeah, why even have coaches. Why does anyone even talk?

            This is insane.

          • kjn

            I wasn’t very clear here. What I meant was that coaching only goes so far. You can only polish a turd so much. No amount of time with Bill Walsh and Vince Lombardi would have made Charlie Frye into Joe Montana.

            What I should have said is “I don’t think any amount of coaching or mentoring will much of a difference if the talent isn’t there.”

        • ClevelandFrowns

          Where does one draw the line? Coaches coach. Mentors mentor. There’s good and bad coaches, there’s good and bad mentors. For instance, a good mentor wouldn’t constitute a dissonant “multiple voice,” but would reinforce the useful teachings of the coach. Better to have a good mentor than no mentor. This isn’t hard.

          • Captain_Spaulding

            Sure, but the problem arises when the “mentor” thinks of himself as an “assistant coach” as Holmgren put it.

            A “mentor” can help with preparation during the week, sure, but they can be more harmful than helpful if they get too involved on the sidelines during games.

            Better to have no “mentor” than a bad “mentor” who really thinks he’s an assistant coach. That’s all.

  • rodofdisaster

    Oh, my bad…

    I saw the headline and thought this had something to do with Holmgren doing cannonballs in the hotel pool.

    I think we can expect that every Holmgren response will be either self-serving or “Seneca-serving” to the point where I’m almost a little uncomfortable thinking about their relationship.

    I think he paints Jake Delhomme as someone who needed to be doing something so they allowed him “busy-work” suggesting he was not qualified to do so. The QB position is complicated. I don’t think that Colt McCoy would have lit up defenses last year had he had someone mentoring him but another pair of eyes to run through the still photos and guide him with respect to game situations would have been valuable. It’s more valuable than letting the kid sit on the bench trying to figure it out himself. Especially when Pat Shurmur was unavailable as he had so much on his plate trying to figure out which high-flying WR to throw to next or how the “think less, play faster” defense was gonna seal the deal or exactly when to run the ball with no time outs inside the ten.

    Mike is painting himself into a corner with these commentaries and basically leaving himself no out. Don’t worry, he’ll find another human shield when needed and he’ll be sure to bend over so Lerner will have a surface to sign the checks on.

    • CleveLandThatILove

      Underwhelming is the word that keeps coming into my head. Holmgren is that movie that we all wanted to blown away by, but we left the theater saying “ehh.”

      • rodofdisaster

        Nice.

        This is like the third movie of a series that you couldn’t believe they made a sequel to.

        • Beeej

          So does that make him Matrix Reloaded, Revolutions or both?

          • rodofdisaster

            I guess more like Rocky VI

          • Beeej

            Was that the one with Tommy Gunn or the one where he is living in Vietnam and has to rescue a bunch of missionaries? Either way, they were both pretty bad.

          • actovegin1armstrong

            Rod’o,
            I had to look it up, I was certain you were exercising your turn toward hyperbole, (I also heard someone mention Rocky IV a while back and I thought that they were exaggerating as well), but there really was a Rocky VI and there are plans to make a Rocky VII.
            I would rather see seven Ishtar movies.

        • CleveLandThatILove

          We do need another Blair Witch Project now that you mention it.

  • rgrunds

    Where’s Rod? What does Rod think? I think what Rod thinks.

  • Russ

    Bunch of crying over spilt milk, is what this Holmgren nonsense is. His mistake was not firing Mangini immediately and then offering a stale, de facto excuse for it. What’s done is done. Let us remember the Mangini drafts and the often hapless, helpless football we witnessed during his tenure. It was every bit as bad as what we’re seeing now with no upside. All we had to look forward to was another stale, failed Pats retread of a team.

    • BIKI024

      agreed, man, i wonder who would’ve been coach if we canned Mangini right way. Schwartz doesn’t look so bad right now, although who knows how good the guy would be without Stafford and Calvin, or on a roster as terrible as the Browns was Mangini’s tenure (some to his own doing)

  • BIKI024

    to believe Holmren’s only reason for firing Mangini was because he “didn’t win enough” is a little far fetched my friend. you are singling out one of the many reasons he (and Heckert) gave and that Mangini even has said on NFL about other teams as well: they all feel is signficant value in having everyone on the same page, philosophically, etc.

    as far as not winning enough games, i’m sure if Mangini and Heckert were able to win a bunch games together in 2009 (9 games or making playoffs), they may have felt that they should continue a mission of what only a handful of NFL teams have EVER done, keeping a lame duck coach on after new Front Office is brought in. maybe they would’ve had more confidence that the “cross-breeding” of coaching trees could work and they would continue on. sure we had plenty of things go wrong in 2009 injury-wise etc, but who knows what was going on behind closed doors between Heckert and Mangini, maybe Heckert didn’t feel as comfortable working with him as he initially thought, and in the end, he’s the boss and he brought in “his guy”

    plus they must’ve finally woken up and realized they are the Cleveland Browns, who plays in a cursed city, and no way they were going to set an NFL precedent by having a playoff+-calibur team from a new regime who kept their lame duck coach.

    • dubbythe1

      as much as some of our bias is present when discussing this, yours is saturating this paragraph as well. I am not agreeing or disagreeing, we have all been down this argument before, many times. However, I will state that Mangini was operating under the assumption he had more than 2 years to BUILD the team and I will stand by the evidence of him beginning by instilling a discipline and chemistry via veteran players. We can debate wether it was wrong or right to begin this way, and we can speculate as to how he was going to proceed in year 3 and beyond. These next few years will determine if our Team’s front office was hypocritical in its assement by allowing this new staff the opportunity that was taken away from the old staff, especially if this new staff fails to match the previous’ marks.

      • BIKI024

        i don’t doubt that Mangini could’ve gone on to good things if he had more time, but in addition to time, he needed a GM that hired him or one that was one the same page as him in terms of what sort of players to go after. that was not the case. all the blame goes to Lerner for not setting things up with the proper hierarchy.

        but as much as there needs to be chemistry between the players, there needs to be chemistry between the FO and HC. they gave it a shot for a year and it seems that they didn’t feel comfortable that this “cross-breeding” of philosophies, backgrounds, “coaching-trees) was going to work. it rarely does. again, name me examples of teams who brought in new regimes kept the lame duck coach that have gone on to success. there is no bias in that statement whatsoever, show me one situation where it has worked, heck not even where it has worked, but when a new regime came in and kept the lame duck coach. just doesn’t happen, no bias there my friend, just the facts.

      • BIKI024

        and as much as i love H+H, they clearly made a mistake in not making a change right away, but there were still some good things I suppose. at least many of the young guys we still have on roster got a couple years learning under Mangini, so all was not lost

        • http://twitter.com/cpmack Chris M

          It sounds like a giant contradiction. According to what I’m gathering from you, Heckert really only knows how to draft 1 type of player (everyone on the same page, etc), and that player would fit his desired system. Then you said it’s a good thing that players that didn’t fit Mangini’s system had time to learn a system from a guy who was a lame duck anyhow.

          I’m not following the logic here.

          • ClevelandFrowns

            “I’m not following the logic here.”

            Your first mistake is trying to.

          • BIKI024

            Again, name me ONE team who has brought in a new front office and kept the lame duck coach. There may be a couple over the history of recent NFL, but certainly none that have gone on to any sort of success.

            But where’s the contradiction exactly? I’m sure Heckert could try to find players of guys who can fit other schemes, but he was hired for his successful run at doing things a certain way. And it’s not all on Heckert, he has a full-time staff of about 15 other guys in Berea, not to mention the dozens of scouts on the field, all pulling in one direction. Doesn’t make much sense to try to change things when they had a pretty good run in Philly.

            As far as Mangini, he didn’t just coach schemes. Practice habits, how to handle themselves off the field, etc. Not to mention any impact he had on the DB’s who didn’t really have to make many changes from the switch.

            But again, if my logic doesn’t make sense, I guess you guys know better than every team in the NFL, including teams run by Mangini, who clearlyy hired guys who fit his system, including the George Kokinis experiment.

  • https://twitter.com/jimkanicki jimkanicki

    two browns notes to start the day.

    1. You know, last year going into the season we thought we’re in really good shape at running back with Peyton Hillis, Brandon Jackson, and Montario Hardesty and it turns out all three of them got nicked up. Heckert via PFT.
    “Nicked-up.” it’s gotten to the point where everything coming out of berea is cliche-speak. could it be heckert believes his euphemisms? like, ‘jackson and steinbach was were only nicked up for the year so i don’t really have to find FA replacements.’

    2. Two days ago Homgrum shared that he’s doing some football stuff yes, but he’s really got the ‘whole enchilada’ and it’s been ‘a learning curve’ for him on the business side. (go to 19:30 mark.) IOW, he actually thinks he’s being paid 8-10m/yr to sell luxury suites and to be a CEO-trainee. today we find the browns tied to an FBI investigation about corruption associated with their demand for concessions on leased parking spots.
    putting aside why the already grossly publicly subsidized private enterprise felt entitled to shake down cleveland still further… now the browns are associated with a corruption probe. all for $25,000/yr. 25k/yr??
    fortunately for frowns readers, i’ve found the transcript from berea: ‘hey fred.. i know we talked about getting $20k/yr more out of the port… see if you can bump it up to $25k. oh and tell em we’ll pay them extra for playoff parking. [laughter]‘

    • BIKI024

      1. yes, even with BJax going down in the preseason, it seemed they were in good shape with Cover Boy and Hardesty.. then when Cover boy as well as Hardesty went down they went to FA. As far as Steinback, they also brought in a FAs (Greco and Cousins). no they didn’t get Brian Peters as you wanted (and I’m sure several other teams) but I doubt many vets would want to come to a young team like Cleveland over a potential Super Bowl winner.

  • dr. jew

    If the Browns make a “big jump” this year, it will be straight into Lake Erie. It’s true that they drafted an excellent running back, but they supposedly had an excellent running back (Madden 2012 cover boy) to start last season. They’ll have a rookie quarterback whose ceiling is high-average, if he ever realizes his full potential — which will be hard when throwing to a collection of mediocre receivers in a primitive offensive scheme run by a hack coordinator whom no one else in the league would hire.

    The defense, meanwhile, had a good year statistically in 2011, but only statistically. The Steelers could bring Frenchy Fuqua back and even at his age could expect a 100-yard game against the Brownies.

    The only solution that Cleveland has for Mike Holmgren is to get a roller derby team to distract our attention. (I hear Gilbert has an offer in for the Bay Area Bombers.)

    • actovegin1armstrong

      Dr j,
      You really disappoint me with your heavily veiled NewSpeak .
      How do you really feel about the new regime of our beloved Browns?
      Stop mincing words and get to the point.
      And please do not use Frenchy to discredit the Brown’s defense,
      Mr Fuqua, or any one of his dead animal coats could run through any NFL team like a knife through….. some soft dairy product.

  • mo_by_dick

    John Telich reporting Phil Taylor will have an MRI on his pectoral.

    https://twitter.com/#!/JohnTelich8/status/200675163518402560

    Hoping this is somehow referring to LB Ben Taylor.

  • p_forever

    speaking of politics, and how some people (apparently 60% of the people in NC, for instance) insist upon really hateful politics, here’s the latest about the AZ county sheriff whose style of justice tim mcginty stated that he’d really like to implement here in cuyahoga county after he got elected as prosecutor. get ready – we’re going to have the toughest prosecutor in america. cripes.

    http://slatest.slate.com/posts/2012/05/10/sheriff_joe_arpaio_justice_department_plans_lawsuit_on_civil_rights_violations.html

    • actovegin1armstrong

      p_4,
      Horror movies do not unnerve me in the least, but horror politics scare me to no end.
      You should buy me a box of Sominex.

  • ChuckKoz

    Headline:
    Shurmur: “We don’t hand anybody anything”

    http://sports.yahoo.com/news/shurmur-dont-hand-anybody-anything-175726535–nfl.html

    except him getting handed his job with no real justification other than nepotism.

    • ClevelandFrowns

      Brilliant.

  • bee cee

    i’m kinda hoping the big walrus takes a big leap.

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