Horseshoe Casino Lets the Losers In

by Cleveland Frowns on May 15, 2012

Dan Gilbert’s Cleveland casino opened last night to incredibly fawning reviews in the local press and from some people with Twitter accounts.

“Not even two hours after it opened, the Horseshoe Casino paid out its first $50,000 jackpot,” NewsChannel5′s Jen Steer reports.

A casino that will spend millions annually to market itself and will take in tens of millions in annual revenue paid out a $50,000 jackpot within two hours of opening, on the busiest night it will ever have? What are the odds?

“A line outside the casino [that formed at around 4 p.m.] wrapped around the block until 2:45 a.m.,” writes Steer, who also reports that “most people NewsChannel5 spoke with loved the new casino.”

Most people who were willing to wait in line for hours to get drunk and gamble loved the new casino on opening night, and Steer has some quotes to prove it.

“It’s a beautiful casino and we kind of like came out even and we had a good time,” said Chris Butler, a Cleveland resident. “Everybody that worked in there was very nice.”

“Ah man, it’s beautiful they got everything, every kind of machine,” said Barbara Dolman. “It’s like a ballroom. They’ve got all kinds of restaurants.”

“It was overwhelming,” said Shannon Tarnaski. “It was just very big, bigger than a lot of other casinos close by.”

“I can’t wait to get back,” one man told NewsChannel5. “I’m going home to cash this check and I’ll be back in the morning.”

And if you aren’t one of those people who’d wait in line that long to buy drinks and lose money, well, you should have been, because according to Cleveland.com, “the wait was worth it.” Because some people with Twitter accounts said so.

“Even if u not into gambling, casino worth a visit to chill.” — James Kopniske

“The Grand Opening of the HORSESHOE CASINO gave me chills!! Cleveland is on the rise!!” — ashley mijangos

“On my way home from the Casino….good times.” — Tino Claudio

“big ups to @HorseshoeCLE for an awesome time tonight!!” –Tommy

“Casino opened up today… Downtown looks like a whole different world. That’s about to be my spot this summer.” — Lone Wolf London

For his part, Gilbert told “the cheering crowd” to expect, “more than a casino, but a classy and intimate entertainment center that really has the soul of Cleveland involved here.”

“It’s here. There’s been a lot of attempts and people said it would never happen,” added Cleveland Mayor Frank Jackson. “Those investments in this casino will help us be a 24-hour city.”

Not sure how the wet blanket got into the paper this morning, but here’s the Plain Dealer’s Thomas Ott, reporting that, “Horseshoe Casino Cleveland visitors should know the odds favor the house.”

No system, no superstitious ritual, no level of skill can overcome the “house advantage,” a proven mathematical edge that eventually tilts to the casino on table games and slot machines.

“In virtually all games and for virtually all bets you make in a casino, there’s a built-in house advantage,” said University of Denver Professor Robert Hannum, who teaches a course in gambling mathematics.

“You might win in the short term, but in the long run you’ll lose.”

“The advantage, or take, is the percentage of your money that the casino will win over time based on statistical calculations. The number, often small enough to keep you chasing the big score, varies by the game, casino rules and — in those few cases where it matters — skill.”

So, people rich enough to organize and pass referendums to change laws spend their money to do just that so that they’re then allowed to organize games that are precisely calculated to create an advantage just big enough to keep society’s weakest* “chasing the big score” that they’ll never catch. Which is how we get “a classy and intimate entertainment center” and a “24-hour city” that will restore “the soul of Cleveland.” And is why we expect Cleveland.com to publish Twitter updates about how awesome the casino is at least weekly if not daily from now until the sun burns out. And also why it feels like we can hardly move an inch without somebody telling us about how great casinos have been for Detroit.

Hey! 3-D light show! Incredible!

World peace must be right around the corner.

—————

*People, some of whom through no fault of their own, of course, don’t have it together enough to organize their own games on which to wager with friends that are more fun than the ones at the casino, don’t require stacked odds, and go down at places that aren’t so full of depressed addicts, and where drinks cost much less than $7.50 per.

  • http://www.waitingfornextyear.com Craig Lyndall

    And here I thought I’d get a glowing review of the edifice that somehow brought the Mangini-bashing Chuck Booms and the former Browns ball coach together on its opening night. Without Dan Gilbert’s “intimate entertainment center” Mangini would have forever suffered in the eyes of Booms and all his fans.

    I thought for sure you’d be behind that! :-)

    • CleveLandThatILove

      You beat me to it, Craig.

    • ClevelandFrowns

      What am I missing? Coach was there?

      • http://www.waitingfornextyear.com Craig Lyndall

        Coach was there and made nicey nice with Chuck Booms for about a half hour. Booms fessed up to bashing Mangini. Mangini said he knew all about it. They laughed and talked. By Booms’ account, he had a nice conversation, loves Mangini now and wants to have him on the show.

        • mo_by_dick

          Ah, the legendary iron-clad invitation to be on Kiley & Booms.

        • BIKI024

          YES!!!!! hahahahahahahhaa

        • bupalos

          I can feel the cognitive dissonance all the way out here in the sticks.

          • ClevelandFrowns

            Oh come on. Why wouldn’t Booms kiss Mangini’s ass? And why wouldn’t Mangini go on his show? The world is an imperfect place, and sometimes one is required by the strictures of society to temporarily lower himself. Plus I’m sure Mangini had no real idea who he was dealing with.

            The whole thing, a non-event. And “cognitive dissonance” is especially disappointing.

          • BIKI024

            Mangini had to of known he was going to the Horseshoe though. is this what his career has come to? being a greeter at casino openings???

            only a matter of time before you get a memo from coach’s assistant to cease and desist defaming the Horseshoe. you don’t want to make coach look bad to his new employer do you?

          • bupalos

            Not in regard to Booms, just in regard to Mangini blessing the temple of Dan.

            But,
            >>>one is required by the strictures of society to temporarily lower himself>>>
            solves it just fine.

      • CleveLandThatILove
        • BIKI024

          “I love Colt McCoy, he can still be a big-time quarterback in the NFL” Coach Mangini (according to Booms)

          • CleveLandThatILove

            I know, right?

  • Dood

    D-pressing. But maybe it’s time to stop fighting the tide and talk with Edelman about launching the Horseshoe Cheddar Bay Sportsbook.

    • Petefranklin

      That would take a few good lawyers, or one excellent one, to change some federal laws, any takers?

  • Andrew Samtoy

    Well said.

  • BIKI024

    Frownie, just because you don’t like to play cards doesn’t mean you have to ruin the fun for everyone else.

    for as big of a proponent you are of legalizing drugs and allowing people to make their own choices it seems pretty hyprocrital to me that you’re ripping on people who enjoy the entertainment value that a casino provides, especially one as nice as The Horseshow. it’s their money, they can do what they want with it and they certainly don’t need a professor to tell them that the house has a “built-in advantage”, they weren’t born yesterday.

    • ClevelandFrowns

      I’m sorry that your fun is ruined by someone pointing out that something that’s stupid is stupid.

      Maybe you’d feel less aggrieved if you took a few moments to think about 1) how the difference between “legalization” and “celebration” applies here; and/or 2) the differences between the consequences of prohibition of redistribution schemes like Gilbert’s, and a drug war that turns plants that grow in spite of themselves into billions of dollars of black market profits, ensures by definition that all of that money goes to criminals, turns inner city culture on its head and clogs the penal system to a state of near total disrepair.

      Just a thought. But anyway, it’s already been noted that the guy who won’t play Cheddar Bay because can’t manage one weekly 100 word essay about a football wager that he’s making anyway is the guy who’s the most pumped for the casino to open. Nobody who matters doesn’t appreciate that fact.

      • BIKI024

        raise the stakes to Cheddar Bay and maybe it will be entertaining to me.

        • bupalos

          The Cheddar Bay stakes could not be higher than they are. Nor could you get better odds. Nor find a better test of prognosticating skill.

          But some folks are only entertained by losing propositions.

          • BIKI024

            for the millionth time, my “skill” is largely based on viewing how the public bets, which can’t be fully analyzed until the moments before kickoff. that is the major reason why i don’t participate in Cheddar Bay.

            and yes, the stakes are low, if it was $500 per entry with a prize of $10K, now that would be interesting.

          • Petefranklin

            Double the stakes and you have the Grandaddy of them all….the Hilton errr LVH now, supercontest. 1k per entry 5 picks per week, weekly deadline is friday @ noon or 6pm, if you need a proxy let me know. 100 k minimum top prize!

      • dubbythe1

        grrr, i just dont want to write and you cant make me …neener!

      • bossman09

        Frowns, what’s the % chance to beat the house at an Indians game? you buy a ticket, you watch for a while, buy some over priced drinks and go home. You have ZERO % chance to recoup that money. It’s called entertainment. I won’t compare season ticket holders to gambling addicts, but really – there a lot of people who view gambling as entertainment and enjoy losing their money without remorse. I will conceed that gambling has it’s problems, but it’s not the end of civilization any more than smoking, drinking, drugs, or anything else is.

      • CLE4ME

        I love playing cards…. in Vegas. Heading out West to gamble & party with old friends in a place like no other is loads of fun! But to have a casino in your own backyard??? Sounds pretty awesome, but I justify “losing money in Vegas” because its Vegas. People will hurt from CASINO officially living here now. Once the novelty wears off, most folks will be able to see the dangers that are sure to come ahead.

    • http://brian23.com Brian

      hey wait my comment here was actually a valid point – why was it deleted

    • kjn

      You can be for legalized gambling and against specific casino deals that reward specific persons or institutions by giving them a monopoly on the vice.

      • thatsfine

        Agreed. I’d further that by stating that I feel much better about a house advantage if the house is a rotation of charities or an orphanage or the like, and not folks with a ton of money adding a few more shovels full to their pile.

        • ClevelandFrowns

          And yup.

      • ClevelandFrowns

        Yup.

    • Believelander

      Casinos are bad unless they can draw in a lot of tourism. With every state surrounding Ohio having casinos of their own, including Canada, it’s going to be fairly challenging to make outsiders decide on sleepy midwest Cleveland instead of the invariably closer casinos. Unless of course those people are from Ohio, and that doesn’t constitute bringing in tourism.

      Not liking cards has aught to do with it. The casino is a bad thing for this city, unless Dan Gilbert and Cleveland’s oh-so-adept political machine can find a way to make us a tourist trap.

  • bupalos

    Nice work frowner.

    I’m still waiting for the explanation as to why this one is supposed to work better than Detroit? I think Biki had some theory that this one will really be for “players,” because…I forget…it’s a Biki reason. Help us out Bik.

    I guess a cynic would say that if any city can find the entertainment value in a losing proposition, it should be Cleveland.

    • BIKI024

      no, my reason was WE’RE NOT DETROIT!

      • bupalos

        WELL WE’RE APPARENTLY TRYING TO GET THERE!

        • BIKI024

          everyone seems to love what the casino has done for Pittsburgh, so hopefully they are following their model.

          • Believelander

            As I said, casinos only work if you bring people in. While nobody would ever want to go to Pittsburgh, you won’t necessarily know this until you arrive there, and once you are INSIDE Pittsburgh, it’s like a labyrinth trying to escape. Therefore the unfortunate victims can choose to while away their final hours of their lives gambling away their money that they can’t take with ‘em before the radiation eventually kills them off and they’re eaten by the natives, not necessarily in that order.

      • http://profile.yahoo.com/63YARKROCL3LGHZGHIMX2EHWJM Scott

        This is not a fool proof assessment by any means but here is why I believe, “We’re not Detroit,” is an appropriate response: I stayed at the Motor City Hotel & Casino in November, rooms were nice, casino was smoke filled and gross, which was fine, I was there for a concert at a near by venue, not to gamble. We had lunch, at a local micro brew about half a block from Ford Field et al., the rain let up so we dicided to walk back, after passing though occupy detroit there was nothing on the other side, for a mile ,until we got to the hotel/casino, nothing but desolation, graffiti and busted thunderbird bottles. Conversely, for the “Draft Party” I stayed at the Radisson and walked to the map room without ever fearing for my life, or even feeling a little uncomfortable. “Our” casino is located in walking distance to all professional sporting arenas, eateries, bars and many other downtown entertainment venues.

        Thing is I agree with both arguments, I just hope that the “gamble” that is being taken with the casino, results in profits for all downtown businesses. I probably won’t make the trip just to gamble, except possibly a first time, but I can see killing time before a game/concert by dropping 20-40 in a video poker machine.

        Let’s just hope that the tax money generated actually ends up where it should, (doubtful).

    • BIKI024

      for the record, Detroit area has FOUR casinos, not 1, not, 2, not 3, but 4 (FOUR). and the casino revenue accounts for roughly 15% of the city’s taxrevenue, so I don’t believe the people who run the city are up in arms about what the gaming industry has done to their city, in fact by all accounts it has clearly benefited the city.

      Cleveland added ONE casino, not 2, not 3, not 4, but 1 (ONE) because they see how it can not only add tax revenue to a city in dire need of additional revenue streams, but also another form of entertainment for the residents and visitors. seems like good business for the city for me. looking forward to going up there.

      • bupalos

        I agree Detroit was 4 times as stupid, and that’s why they are still 4 times worse than us. Been there before the casinos, been there after. Detroit is a worse city post casino. Maybe not just because of them, but they clearly didn’t help. Lots of independent stuff got vacuumed up and the majority of that business is transfer payments from poverty alleviation to corporate welfare.

        >>>in fact by all accounts it has clearly benefited the city. >>>
        You’re nuts. Yes, they are now 100% addicted to it. But that doesn’t mean they are better off. When you transition to a casino economy, miraculously lots of revenue starts flowing through casinos. A whole lot of that revenue was flowing somewhere else before. Possibly somewhere more productive. That doesn’t mean success.

        • BIKI024

          i’m not sure 15% revenue is what would be considered a casino economy, but it seems to me that comparing Cleveland to Detroit is comparing apples to oranges, completely different ecomonic situations, hence my point: WE’RE NOT DETROIT!

          hopefully there are things that Cleveland will take from the mistakes that Detroit has made and improved upon other than not to build more than 1 casino let alone 4..

          in the end, I’m biased, i’m there target consumer. i’m a big fan of casinos, and a Caesars Rewards card member who has been innundated with free hotel comps to come into town. not that visiting Frownie isn’t reason enough, but hitting the casino after a night of debauchery sounds like a great reason to come to Cleveland and drop a bunch of money into the economy to me.

          • bupalos

            Make it rain!

          • BIKI024

            i mostly play poker though, so it’s completely different than playing table games.

          • Petefranklin

            Free hotel comps??? Is there a hotel there too?

          • BIKI024

            Gilbert bought the Ritz… And Renaissance is involved and couple others.. Comps for rooms and food and Bev… Not bad

          • CleveLandThatILove

            You better let somebody (me) know when you’re in town and going to the ‘shoe. Post-debauchery please, unless it involves a Tribe game or the like.

          • BIKI024

            I’m at the Shoe, and it’s really nice, impressed… I sent Frownie a pic, (who has my full permition to post the pic)

      • Believelander

        What percentage of that 15% is money that the taxpaying citizens of Detroit/surrounding areas lost to the casino?

    • http://brian23.com Brian

      because this casino actually has other things around it, and that many people being exposed to and frequenting them is not a bad thing at all

      not everyone who gambles has a gambling problem, just like not everyone who drinks is a raging alcoholic

      jmho

      • ClevelandFrowns

        Yet somehow we don’t have full front page coverage and 3d light shows when somebody opens a bar.

        But yes, there are hotels and restaurants and a mall by the casino. How else would people ever be exposed to those things if it wasn’t there?

        • http://brian23.com Brian

          Why would there be front page stories and 3D light shows when someone opens a bar? You may hate it for very valid reasons, but that doesn’t mean it’s not news.
          *
          *

  • http://twitter.com/cpmack Chris M

    “Horseshoe Casino Cleveland visitors should know the odds favor the house.”

    Obvious statement is obvious.

    I always thought that this was universally known. It’s not like Las Vegas was built by winners.

    • rodofdisaster

      “Realize that you’re in a town [Vegas] where all the bathrooms are made out of marble. It wasn’t THEIR money that paid for the marble.”

      -My brother prior to my first ever trip to Las Vegas.

      The only other advice he gave me was that any absolutely hot woman sitting at a bar without a guy was not really interested in you. She’s a pro.

      • dubbythe1

        your family is full of wisdom sir.

    • Petefranklin

      You’d be suprised how many think the odds dont apply to them, they just got unlucky.

  • Shadow_play

    “And also why it feels like we can hardly move an inch without somebody telling us about how great casinos have been for Detroit.”

    It always amazes me that throughout all this Casino talk no one ever mentions how other suffering cities that got a casino still suffer even after the casino is built. I don’t know about Detroit firsthand, but I always think about Niagara Falls NY. They have a big beautiful casino in the middle of a shabby looking wasteland.

    • rodofdisaster

      I agree. On the other hand, I think (and this is only opinion) that casinos that are near state lines do change the economy in the sense that they bring money across state lines. In New England, there are two casinos in CT and people come from several other states. When out of state money comes into your state, that has to have some impact. Now, CT is a highly taxed state so that may be apples vs oranges compared to Ohio or Nevada.

  • http://twitter.com/musicman06 Chris Music

    The mayor talking up a 24 hour city definitely ranks up there with calling the current bridge construction the equivalent of the Golden Gate Bridge in SF, and my all-time favorite gem:

    “The problem is we have a problem. It’s not that we don’t know that we have a problem, we’ve known it for years. It’s not that we don’t know what the solutions are. We’ve known those for years. The problem is we haven’t done anything about it.”

  • GrandRapidsRustlers

    I will support this when they open up the Cheddar Bay Lounge.

  • http://www.redright88.com/ TitusPullo94

    And don’t forget how casinos turned Atlantic City into the diamond of the Jersey shore: http://tinyurl.com/4xecdgc

    • rodofdisaster

      Atlantic City has a long history of a high crime rate dating back to the booze running during Prohibition. I don’t know that the casinos brought that with them.

      • ClevelandFrowns

        So you’re blaming it on the booze runners?

        • rodofdisaster

          Just saying I don’t think that the crime in AC began with casinos. I think the casinos are a result of a problem rather than the cause of the problem.

      • dubbythe1

        but it could be said the the casinos were erected there because of the history of crime there. All organized crime operates under the assumption that eventually the house (law) wins, so why not get into a more legal racket and take money from the willing.

      • http://www.redright88.com/ TitusPullo94

        I know – Boardwalk Empire rules – but just wanted to point out that Detroit is not the only problem spot, even if it is an easy target, being Detroit and all.

        • rodofdisaster

          Agreed. Detroit was a pit before they had a casino.

          • bupalos

            IMO the casinos definitely hurt greek town which was the only decent district there. Agreed thought it maybe hard to assess cause and effect when we’re talking about Detroit.

    • thatsfine

      I’ve been living in New Jersey for 4 years now, and there is no doubt that Atlantic City is well on its way to becoming a complete hellhole. It is so bad that Jersey folk say “A.C.” stands for “almost Camden”, which is undoubtedly the hellholiest city in the USA that is not on an Indian reservation. No joke – it makes Detroit look like a reasonable place to spend an evening.

      What has happened to AC is a hot topic here. One argument that gets plenty of traction in everyday conversation is that in the past 20 years there have been multiple new casinos opened on the east coast that have siphoned off customers. Eastern Penn, Connecticut, upstate NY all have newer casinos. And if you’re dropping nickels in a slot machine you can do it closer to home and not have to drive all the way to AC where you might end up with a gun in your face in the parking lot. In this regard, success associated with out of town / state money isn’t going to happen. Most of the Horseshoe’s business will be local. Cleveland is a late comer to the gambling party.

  • Jim

    Your post is just as hyperbolic as the Plain Dealer’s fawning coverage of the casino. It certainly will not be the panacea to that which ails the Cleve. Likewise, its opening won’t signal the end times, social decay, or the destruction of all that is good and holy.

    In reality, it will have both a positive and negative effect on Cleveland and the region as a whole. On the positive side, 1,600 jobs is 1,600 jobs, and the median salary and benefits make these middle class positions (and one of the largest employers downtown). The casino will also bring in much
    needed revenue for the city and county (although not as much as predicted).

    On the negative side, there’s the whole gambling aspect you detest, plus most likely some sort of increase in crime (although opponents’ claims are also overstated on this point. See studies on the Pittsburgh casino and its affect, or lack thereof, on crime after it opened).

    • ClevelandFrowns

      “Your post is just as hyperbolic as the Plain Dealer’s fawning coverage of the casino.”

      And with that, Sherlock Hemlock can move on to solving the next mystery, which is why hyperbole is appropriately used in one instance and not the other. G’luck.

      “It certainly will not be the panacea to that which ails the Cleve. Likewise, its opening won’t signal the end times, social decay, or the destruction of all that is good and holy.”

      So you’re the guy who knows when end times is coming and what’s going to cause it. I don’t have those capabilities, so I’ll just stick to calling a step in the wrong direction a step in the wrong direction.

      • Jim

        You’re right, I don’t know when the end times are coming. But I am fairly certain that a bunch of old ladies putting coins into a slot machine that is weighted against them is not a sign of the ends times. We’ve managed to avoid it thus far, what with some form of legalized gambling in almost every state. But maybe you’re right and Cleveland opening up a casino is the tipping point. Regardless, we’re all polishing brass on the Titanic anyways.

        • ClevelandFrowns

          Old ladies should be wagering on bridge or a comparable game of skill in groups with each other over cocktails, snacks and storytelling, not blindly dropping coins into Dan Gilbert’s bank account. The availability of the latter destroys the bonds that allow for the former.

          A step in the wrong direction is a step in the wrong direction.

          • BIKI024

            i’ve never understood why people enjoy playing slots, but it is what it is. besides, i’m sure the Horseshoe isn’t going to be breaking up any Bridge groups, in fact it may be another weekly or monthly outing for the ladies to go have some fun together instead of having to drive to Pittsburgh or Detroit/Windsor

          • CleveLandThatILove

            You are correct, Biki. My nurse girlfriends and I have done several jaunts that include casinos, but with equal or greater consideration on the restaurants and shopping that are nearby.

          • Jim

            I don’t disagree with any of this, except that what people should do and what they actually do tend to be vastly different. Like I should not have had that fifth shot of whiskey on Friday, but I actually went ahead and did it anyways.

            My point is/was that this isn’t going to be as good as those in charge say it will be. Likewise, it won’t be as bad as the critics claim. The truth will lie somewhere in between those two extremes. That position, I suspect, won’t help sell newspapers however.

          • http://twitter.com/cpmack Chris M

            “Old ladies should be wagering on bridge or a comparable game of skill in groups with each other over cocktails, snacks and storytelling, not blindly dropping coins…”

            If you said that to my 86 year old grandmother or any of her five sisters, they would tell you to go pound salt.

          • ClevelandFrowns

            I’m sure they’re wonderful ladies. I’m sorry that nobody ever taught them how to play a proper game of bridge.

          • http://twitter.com/cpmack Chris M

            I never said they can’t play bridge. I’m saying that the notion that they should be playing bridge is completely absurd.

          • ClevelandFrowns

            Yeah, agree to disagree then.

          • CleveLandThatILove

            We old ladies like a little excitement, just like anybody else. Gamble a little, then go have a nice lunch and talk about it.

          • bupalos

            Good lord. For anyone who hasn’t met her, CTIL is like 36. You’d say maybe 40 if she didn’t act so immature– taking drunk people’s chairs and soforth.

          • CleveLandThatILove

            Bup is my favorite.

          • ClevelandFrowns

            Right. The point is that there’s a million ways to gamble that are far more worth talking about than pretty much any of the ways that are available at the casino.

          • Petefranklin

            except poker

      • actovegin1armstrong

        “Sherlock Hemlock”????
        Well put Frownie!
        With my love of Socrates, P. G. Wodehouse and Douglass Adams, I am going to steal that and use it often.
        Very nice Frownie.

    • bupalos

      >>>Likewise, its opening won’t signal the end times, social decay, or the destruction of all that is good and holy.>>>

      I’m having a really hard time finding that spirit in the post. Maybe stick to quotes.

      >>>In reality, it will have both a positive and negative effect on Cleveland and the region as a whole. On the positive side, 1,600 jobs is 1,600 jobs>>>

      No, 1600 jobs is not 1600 jobs, even supposing that that number isn’t ridiculously inflated. It really does matter what you are doing in the long run. If these jobs centered around the recapture of welfare payments, they will be counterproductive. If it draws people and jobs away from less centralized and rapacious businesses it would be a net loser too. I find the “hey it’s better than nothing” attitude profoundly wrong and insulting to Cleveland.

      >>>The hottest place in town has the coolest job around, MGM Grand Detroit. With over 3,000 positions in our world-class hotel, cutting edge casino, bars, nightclub and three signature restaurants, we’re looking to hire Detroit’s best.>>>

      • Jim

        70,000 job applications for 1,600 positions. I have not seen anywhere suggesting that number is inflated, but would certainly be interested in such reports. Regardless, some people obviously saw it as a way to find gainful employment. The fact that the positions will (eventually) be unionized will also ensure that these employees get something at the bargaining table. I have a hard time finding anything “wrong” or “insulting” with people finding such work that ensures things like health coverage and other benefits.

        • bupalos

          I don’t mean there may not be 1600 positions, if that’s the number that’s the number. I more mean they are probably counting like Detroit, where the 5 valet parking attendants that work 3 hour shifts at minimum wage count as 40 total jobs.

          I’m also not saying I KNOW this won’t be a net positive. I strongly suspect it won’t. I strongly suspect it will just compete for existing entertainment dollars at the cost of more interesting venues like Tremont or more important ones like the Indians, and that the bulk of the real business will be recapturing welfare payments for Dan Gilbert. But maybe there are some special factors I’m missing that will make this thing work differently from Detroit. Here’s hoping.

        • actovegin1armstrong

          “I have a hard time finding anything “wrong” or “insulting” with people finding such work”

          Civil War recruits to defend the confederacy.

          Thugs hired to stop students from entering school during the “Jim Crow” days.

          Baldwin-Felts v. Matewan Miners.

          Pinkerton Security.

          Feudal economy Tax Collectors imprisoning debtors and enforcing the caste system.

          Dealers making money off of the welfare checks of the poor.

          Dealers making money of of the welfare checks of the poor.

          (My apologies for the duplication, insert “drug” before one of the last two and “Blackjack” before the other.)

          • Jim

            One of these is not like the others. Plus, I didn’t know that thugs, drug dealers, and soldiers were all “jobs” that provided “things like health coverage and other benefits.”

          • actovegin1armstrong

            You are probably right Jim.
            I am in a bit of a “Hyperbolic Chamber” on this subject. I have at least a dozen close relatives who gamble away their assistance from me and from social services and then call me to borrow more.

            If you can afford to lose money and you enjoy losing money; then gamble.

            On another note, Rod’o said that casinos are like ATM’s to him.

            Perhaps Rod’o can beat “the house”.
            I do not fight the house.
            I can reel it in if it is a “friendly” gambling group and it is one deck Blackjack, but otherwise”The House” always wins.
            You worried me a bit Rod’o.

            On a more important note I am watching the Spur’s and Coach Pop used the word simplistic correctly.

            I have found that about one out of 100 people know what that word means and use it correctly.

            Popovitch is a genius.

        • ConvergeCult

          Well, not to chime too much into this, but this post got me to thinking. As a former manager at Kalahari Resorts (which was vying HEAVILY to get in on some of this action), I can tell you that these jobs will absolutely NOT be unionized. The uppers will fire any employee and have any group removed that even thinks of bringing it up. We are a “will to work” state after all, there is absolutely no lawful need for an employer to give a reason for firing an employee. As for benefits, employees will have to be deemed “full-time”, which, again, there is no lawful need to do, even if they are working over 32 hours a week. The benefits will also take a huge chunk out of their pay, which will be okay, but not great, without providing great coverage. I absolutely hope I am wrong, but I have a feeling that I won’t be. This is coming from someone who has worked in the hospitality industry in this state for almost 20 years.

          • ClevelandFrowns

            Thanks for the insight.

      • actovegin1armstrong

        Bravo Bupa!
        1600 pick pockets is not a positive job increase.

    • Petefranklin

      1600 jobs for one casino?If thats true get ready for 6 or 7 hundred layoffs before the novelty wares off. Sorry to always predict gloom and doom but casinos always overhire by about 35% when they open, and the layoffs come quickly, usually about a month.

      • actovegin1armstrong

        Layoffs is a euphemism Pete Frankin’s Sportsline.
        They get fired.

        • Petefranklin

          Naaah…they quit!

    • Believelander

      I’m trying to muddle through the part where Pete hates gambling.

      Pete, thoughts?

      • ClevelandFrowns

        Click the “Why and How We Wager on Sport” link at the sidebar. It’s a simple distinction. It’s also discussed at the “Worst Billboards in Cleveland History” post.

      • Petefranklin

        I hate gambling??? I dislike playing idiotic machines but gambling ben berry berry good to me! I agree with Jim, good jobs and all that does for society. The strip is the only union stronghold in the somewhat great state of Nevada. I owe all I have, own, and more to the “itialian” influence that still permeates the union trades that built the strip and more in Vegas.Dont even get me going on union medical coverage, but my 8 year old just beat cancer and had his last surgery today. Without gambling $$$ both directly and mostly indirectly I wouldn’t have insurance and probably wouldn’t even know that my kid has cancer. I love building casinos, not spending any more time than I need to get in and out of the sportsbook. I love watching the planes coming in every minute it seems, from my recliner while watching the game. It all equals money to me. I just have to try to be smart, win more than I lose, and collect a healthy paycheck that is basically paid for by Joe Tourist. Hope that made sense because after a long day at the “waste disposal site”I’ve had a couple. Going back to the point, dont believe the numbers(amount of jobs created) My guess is 400 permanent at the casino with 150 periphery(beer deliverers etc). Even so a good job is a blessing nowadays!

  • p_forever

    the thing is – the horseshoe is here, like it or not. so i’m going to root for it doing well, or, at a minimum, that it not be utter disaster. (this, by the way, is the exact same way i feel about brandon weeden.)

    • bupalos

      Absolutely.

      P the indomitable.

    • ClevelandFrowns

      laissez-faire_p.

      • p_forever

        what i expressed above was not laissez faire. if i had to characterize it i’d call it cautious optimism. but rooting for success is not laissez faire. laissez faire is who gives a damn. i give lots of damns. it’s in my backyard. i like my backyard.

        moreover, speaking of non-laissez faire, clearly the best chance for success we have is regulating the hell out of the casino, like making it non-24 hour, and putting limits on how much people can bet in a day, and etc etc nanny stating the hell out of the place. it wouldn’t make it perfect, but maybe it could curb some of the excesses.

        i agree with all of what you say about why a casino wasn’t a good idea, and why it might not do what clevelanders are hoping it will to pump up the economy and attract visitors and etc etc. but now that it is here, in our backyard, what do you suggest we do with it? just let it be as awful as possible? i just don’t think that’s as constructive as trying to make it as non-awful as possible, that’s all.

        • ClevelandFrowns

          That’s much better.

          • p_forever

            omg. okay. cripes. also ash was wearing a puffy purple pirate shirt.

        • BIKI024

          non-24 hour?? betting limits?? it’s origins are Binions Horseshoe, home of the unlimited wager!

          besides, what do you care if some rich idiot loses $200K in one night?? that would go far to improving your “back yard”

          • mo_by_dick

            was actually thinking about this — many of the pro teams coming to Cleveland stay at the Ritz, maybe they could use some of their throwaway money to pay some “taxes” here.

          • BIKI024

            oh yeah, i’m sure Ceasars (and Rock) is several steps ahead of you on that front. they’ve already done a pretty good job in marketing to above average stakes players via their Rewards Program in other markets about getting comped to come to visit Cleveland, etc so i’m sure they are going hard after the big fishes as well, particularly the athletes. i’m sure the high stakes room will be full of them.

          • Petefranklin

            Sadly Biki, those days are long gone. And it wasn’t unlimited per se, it was that your first bet was your limit. Theyd take 100 dimes, but dont ask for 200 on your next, win or lose. Horseshoe is a joke nowadays, even sold off their one million in cash that you could get a picture with before your .99 steak dinner.

          • BIKI024

            i know they are long gone.. but it’s the principality smokey

  • Captain_Spaulding

    Dan Gilbert Rules!!!

  • Captain_Spaulding
    • ClevelandFrowns

      LOL.

    • kjn

      “In the Browns’ first 15 games of the 2012 regular season, they were not favored once…”

      How many games are there in an NFL season?

    • Beeej

      Best line(s): “You want to make this about gambling? Go right ahead. I’ll make it about progress. This does not constitute progress.”

  • rodofdisaster

    As much as I love Cleveland and visiting there, I can’t say I have followed whatever political gymnastics Dan Gilbert is implied to have engaged in to make a casino happen.

    I personally don’t have any problem with a casino. Why are casinos any more of a problem for gambling addicts than bars and liquor stores are for alcoholics?

    If a large number of people are content to sit like lobotomized lemmings tapping a bar for a virtual pellet, then that’s their problem. Other games give you better odds. My brother jokes that going to the casino for me is like “going to the ATM”.

    I’m surprised that Mangini doesn’t get as much credit for continuing to make Cleveland his home. It’s not that I wouldn’t live there but he isn’t from there and most coaches (I would imagine) don’t hang around often.

    • CleveLandThatILove

      In some press conferences toward the end, when he started letting us into his personal life a bit, Mangini spoke of great neighbors, his kids and their school friends, and he and his wife Julie’s great affection for the people of Cleveland. It wasn’t lip service, he was being genuine (like Booms said).

      • bupalos

        I’m glad I didn’t know this stuff before he got canned. As one of the Holmgren apologists, I get a bit sadder about Mangini every day.

        He did make good money though.

  • Beeej

    Do you think these were the tickets that Hoggram was talking about?

  • Jim

    In more Browns-centric news, as an esquire I am interested in your take with Andrew Sweat’s decision to bypass a shot at the NFL for law school. As I look at my monthly student loan bill each month I certainly have a few thoughts as to the wisdom of such a decision.

    • ClevelandFrowns

      Funny you should ask about that. You should enjoy tomorrow’s post.

    • Jim

      Some crazy statistics; half of the 45,000 law students that will graduate from ABA accredited schools this year will never find jobs in the legal field. Those that do will make between $30-$60,000 out of school, with an average non-dischargeable student loan debt in the six figures. Average interest rate on said non-dischargeable debt will be 7.5%.

      • actovegin1armstrong

        I roomed in a very large house with 6 law school guys and one bid-ness school guy.
        One out of six of those guys is still practicing law.
        Two of those guys had huge money trees, including the one still practicing at dad’s firm.
        My bid-ness school bud hovers near 7 figures ever year and even I do a little better than my law school buds.
        And I never paid a penny for my education.

        One of my friends says that attorneys are the new teachers.

    • TWMBrad

      Not to be old and bitter, but my guess is that most Div.1 football players capable of meeting the minimum LSAT threshold will not be paying for law school out of pocket. Call it a scholarship, grant, endowment, whatever, but some grateful fan or institution will pick up the tab. Just a guess…

      • kjn

        Probably the same grateful fan/institution that will hire him. After an exhaustive search of candidates, of course.

    • actovegin1armstrong

      I saw that Jim.
      I can not understand it with the big bucks in play today.
      I blew off a nice AAA baseball deal to sell stuff during the oilfield boom years and I ignored OSU football as well, but the MLB minimum salary at the time was $21,000 per year.
      I moved to Houston and made 5 times the MLB minimum working 20 hours a week, not riding the bus in the minors.
      I wish that I was born 20 years later.
      The mind is a terrible thing. I hope Mr Sweat is making the correct decision.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_QGR5HVMLBPAML4T3YBXZTX4EZY Jeff L

    Went there, it was awful. $30+ just to park. $7.50 for tiny drinks. A giant rip off, will never go there again.

    • ClevelandFrowns

      I’ve never heard of a casino without free parking. Is there really no free parking?

      • mo_by_dick

        who cares about the parking, where are the free drinks?

        • kjn

          Or how about at the least not ridiculously over priced.

          It has come to the point where going anywhere that is not a bar isn’t even worth it for The Drinking Man and/or Woman.

          I’m willing to pay, but tired of getting gouged.

      • CleveLandThatILove

        I think they’re giving vouchers for a certain amount of slot play. Also, people I know are doing the park-n-ride rapid, so that’s a good option.

      • Petefranklin

        I guess A.C. rips off its customers with parking fees also. One more reason theres only one LV.

    • Jim

      $30? Which lot did you park in? Any idea if that is now standard or just a “special event” type deal?

    • CleveLandThatILove

      Sounds like a Browns game.

    • http://twitter.com/cpmack Chris M

      If you stay for a minimum of 30 minutes, they validate your parking and it’s free. It takes at least 15 to get from the gate to park and get to a table.

      You may be right about the drinks, I can’t speak to that.

  • BIKI024

    Derek Ma’f’in Lowe! CGSO baby! 6-1 with a 2.01 ERA!?! dude is def in the running for 1/4 season AL Cy Young. while it’s early, it has to be the best offseason move in the league this year. kudus to Antonetti

    • GrandRapidsRustlers

      Great day today…big thanks to the Braves for picking up that $10 million for us this year.

      2-0 with Choo in the leadoff spot.

    • kjn

      Hate to be a downer, but no he isn’t. He’s got 13 Ks over 52.2 IPs. Felix Hernandez struck out 12 in one game this year (against us). Lowe’s got more walks (16) than strike outs (13).

      I’m glad he’s pitching well and love the enthusiasm, but he’s been more lucky than good (82.6% LOB%!).

      • mo_by_dick

        BOOOOOOOOOOO. He’s obviously not going to win a Cy Young, but I’m not concerned about the Ks as long as that sinker is working. The LOB% should normalize a bit, but his .317 BABIP doesn’t indicate he’s been overly lucky. /nerdglasses

        He’s done exactly what he was brought in to do, which is eat innings, and he’s clearly outperformed what the team is paying him. Can’t compare him to Felix, but also can’t complain about anything, really.

        • kjn

          A lob% 15 points higher than a career average (a long career by the way) is by definition “lucky”.

          I’m not complaining. I’ve been happy with him. The clubs “grab all the ground ballers we can” strategy has been rather effective.

          Just trying to keep things in perpective. When things don’t always break his way and he doesn’t get out of multiple bases loaded jams in a game, I don’t want people saying how he’s “lost it”.

      • BIKI024

        FWIW, i said “he’s up there” not that he’s the Cy Young winner.. Felix is up there for sure, and so is Peavy, and they probably have a much better shot of sustaining their output. but as of now D.Lowe has 2nd best ERA in the AL behind Peavy.. Felix may have a lower WHIP, but his ERA is .24 higher..

        personally i’d prefer he be a groundball guy than a KO, they typically go much deeper in games as he demonstrated today, granted against a hapless Twins offense.. but he’s pitched great against some powerful offenses this year, would be great to keep it up.

        bottom line, he’s an absolute steal so far, and the front office should be appluaded, since they rarely get any love from the fans..

        • kjn

          All I’m saying is he’s been getting lucky. That said, even if he wasn’t so lucky, he’d be having a good year. I just doubt he can maintain it.

          And yes, we’re agreed on the bottom line for sure- great pick up that has paid HUGE dividends.

          Hopefully we can get Carmona back eventually so we can add another ground baller into the mix.

          • BIKI024

            yeah what is the deal with him anyway?

          • kjn

            There was an article on the Indians site earlier this week. Basically, nobody knows how long it’ll take.

            Charges have been dropped, but he still needs to get approved for a new visa.

            I’ve never seen even a guess at a timeline.

        • actovegin1armstrong

          Biki,
          I have not seen Lowe pitch yet, but I love what he is doing. What is he throwing and when is he using his stuff?
          The baseball pundits pander to the lowest common denominator, I get nothing from them.
          Please give me a more learned breakdown.

          • BIKI024

            he’s always been a groundball pitcher which may not be sexy, but it gets him out of jams.. at the end of the day, it’s about winning the game.. and apparently Indians fans are too snobby to take wins when they can get them..

          • http://twitter.com/cpmack Chris M

            His sinker is buckling knees. Opposing teams are getting infield hits off of him because they’re beating it into the ground, which is to say that maybe sometimes his sinker is too good.

          • actovegin1armstrong

            Thank you Biki and Chris,
            Where is Marshall Bossard when we really need him?
            I used to hit that style a lot. It was called “The Baltimore Chop” back in the stone age when I played. Top the ball hard into the turf and then fly to first.
            I had the power of Duane Kuiper on a bad day, but I could fly to first.
            When going against a sinkerball pitcher I would always hit lefty, even if he was a lefty too.
            Give me that extra four feet!
            We miss you Marshall, a good groundskeeper would have every inch of turf within 30 feet of the plate soft and soaked.
            I need to hurry up and buy that “baseball package” so I can see the games.

          • mo_by_dick
          • actovegin1armstrong

            Thank you Mo_by,
            That is good stuff!
            I feel like it is 1907 and I have just discovered Matisse.

  • http://www.autismspeaks.org/ PML

    Casinos, breastaurants, desecrating sacred Higbee grounds – how can anyone say that’s not definitive progress?

    I’m sad after reading those comments from the mayor and everyone else that they can get so geeked up about something that adds nothing to the cultural and industrial fabric of my beloved hometown. Sure, it may be temporary entertainment to a lot of people that may or may not be able to afford it and it may draw more people downtown. But at the end of the day, it’s a freaking casino that is recycling money and funneling part of it back to people, both public and private, that I’m not crazy about.

  • GrandRapidsRustlers

    As of right now…4:15 PM there is a 90 minute wait to get inside the casino. This is equal parts sad and equal parts amazing…how was this not built on the lake at about 3 times it’s current size. I understand that the newness will wear out…but it is Tuesday afternoon.

    How many people will have to wait outside this weekend after the Tribe games?

    • BIKI024

      it’s the newness, doubt it will be this packed in a few weeks.. it’s also the first phase, they will be breaking ground for the real casino in the next year or so..

    • Jim

      Saturday will be a good litmus test for whether the Tribe can expect a bigger draw as the season progresses. Weather channels are predicting highs around 80 with sun. Day game against an interleague opponent. Should be no reason 30k+ don’t show up.

  • Coachie Ballgames

    Great post, the last line about Detroit is killer. Last I checked Vegas wasn’t exactly doing to well either (foreclosures, empty City Center, etc). And Atlantic City, well, kinda speaks for itself.

    Remember, sports gambling, bad! very bad! scratching off random numbers, good! buy more! we’ll spend your tax dollars on more advertising for it and pretend we give money back to the schools!

    • BIKI024

      Vegas’ issues are ten-fold, gambling is one of them, but it’s not even close to being the driving issue for their foreclosure problems.

      • NeedsFoodBadly

        For real – before the housing bust, Vegas was the fastest growing city, I believe.

        Can anyone in the know explain to me why there’s no sports books at the Horseshoe? That’s something I’d actually enjoy doing. Can you at least bet on the ponies??

        • Petefranklin

          Federal law. Cant even bet sports in AC even if they legalized it in the state. Oregon and another state Delaware?, its legal but not available in its true form…think lotto parlay cards

          • NeedsFoodBadly

            Obviously legal in Nevada too. How does the state law supersede the federal in these instances? And what’s the legality of people using site like bovada to play sporting bets?

          • Petefranklin

            NFB Ibelieve NV got “grandfathered ” back in the 40′s.

        • CleveLandThatILove

          They were paying nurses in Vegas more than double what we make here in OH during that boom.

          • NeedsFoodBadly

            Crazy. No way cost of living was that high.

          • CleveLandThatILove

            I know. Major nursing shortage with the influx of population. I would have seriously considered it if I didn’t have a family, at least for a few years.

      • Petefranklin

        7 of the top 10 reasons…speculators.

  • Broadbentdarren

    The people I saw on TV last night waiting in line were not exactly what I would call High Rollers if you know what I mean. One guy on camera said the slots were tight and he was going home cause he already lost 300 dollars. Lol

  • bupalos

    WOW. I mean I knew he was just throwing sinkers but I didn’t know he was JUST throwing sinkers.

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