More Weeden Readin’

by Cleveland Frowns on May 2, 2012

Chris Kouffman of UniversalDraft.com wrote a comprehensive review of Brandon Weeden’s NFL prospects as part of a “Dolphin-centric” series of prospect profiles for South Florida’s Sun-Sentinel. Here’s one interesting excerpt but the whole thing is packed with information and definitely worth a read.

In the case of longevity, I did a study of the number of career starts of quarterbacks in NFL history that did not get their first opportunity to start seasons until their late 20’s. One must remember that the very first reason a quarterback will cease starting football games is because he is not talented enough, so I limited the study to quarterbacks that had played in at least one Pro Bowl. The study was illuminating. The average age when this group of quarterbacks got their chance to start was 28 years old, which will be Brandon’s age at the start of the 2012 season. The average number of career starts covered enough for 8 solid seasons of starting. When limiting the study to players that played in at least two Pro Bowls, that number jumped up to 9 seasons’ worth of starts. If you nail the talent question on Brandon Weeden (which should always be the most important question), then you should be able to expect at least 8 seasons’ worth of starts. Notable quarterbacks involved in this study include Jim Kelly, Warren Moon, Kurt Warner and Roger Staubach, all of whom are (or will likely be) in the Hall of Fame.

Kouffman goes back to the quarterback’s high school days, and you’ll see that he’s extremely high on Weeden.

In other news:

A Hawken grad wrote to point out that his former classmate Peter Harrold is playing a key role in the New Jersey Devils’ (Devils!) Stanley Cup playoff run;

And Mangini is sorry about the way Spygate turned out. Which is all for today. Hope everyone has a decent one.

  • BIKI024

    Plus he hasn’t really had many hits on him up until the last couple years, so his body is probably a lot fresher than the othe 28+ year olds in the comparison…

    since Mangini is still on the Browns payroll, they should bring him in and tutor Weeden on all the various fronts, disguises, coverages, etc he’s going to see. Sammy Gravano is sorry too, now that he’s locked up..

  • CleveLandThatILove

    I’m getting higher on Weeden every day, and not just because I finally met BIKI.

    • ClevelandFrowns

      Everybody’s doing it.

    • BIKI024

      thx for reminding me, it’s 4:20 somewhere!

    • Petefranklin

      As a retired professional OU Bongcat, I love good Weeden! Just as long as he doesn’t leave me Landry Jonesin for some Matt Sparkley again next April!!!

  • p_forever

    i’m happy to throw my support to weeden, and obviously i hope he’s the answer for the brownies. but i can’t help wishing he didn’t look like a poor man’s carson palmer (which is saying something, given the way i feel about that jerk and his jerky smile too).

    • Jim

      Carson was actually one of the best quarterbacks in the league in 2005 and 2006, prior to his leg getting rolled up on him in the playoffs against the Steelers. Since that injury, however, he has become decidedly mediocre. That being said, decidedly mediocre is still better than what the Browns have produced at quarterback in recent seasons.

      • p_forever

        um-i was talking specifically about palmer’s looks. from that perspective, he has never ever and still isn’t anywhere near one of the best quarterbacks in the league.

        (yes. i get that looks don’t make you a better qb, and i already said i’m 100% behind weeden. it just might have been nice if we, like say new england or green bay, got the added bonus of having a super good looking qb. that’s all.)

        • CleveLandThatILove

          I think I just broke the Like button, sorry Disqus.

          • ClevelandFrowns

            COOL IT BOTH OF YOU.

          • CleveLandThatILove

            Good luck with that one.

          • p_forever

            super still works haha

        • Jim

          Not too surprisingly, I misunderstood. According to my wife it’s because I don’t listen (or in this case read). Disirregardless, I agree with your premise; Carson Palmer is certainly no charmer with the ladies.

        • rodofdisaster

          Aaron Rodgers is considered attractive? Really? Wow, I am really out of touch with the 21st century woman!

          • BIKI024

            agreed, Aaron Rodgers looks like Joe from South Euclid

          • p_forever

            then south euclid knows how to grow em, i guess.

          • CleveLandThatILove

            Oh, yes. Plus, he’s an absolute gentleman according to the locals in GB.

          • p_forever

            he is definitely good looking. green bay is lucky, because brett favre was good looking too.

            if you want, and if especially if you think it would help with the ladies, cleveland that i love and i can come up with a top ten list.

          • BIKI024

            Mark Chmura was good lookin too, you sure you want your daughters around good lookin football players in GB?

          • p_forever

            mostly i think this proves that ownership by the people is even more beneficial than we’d initially thought.

          • dubbythe1

            his big doe eyes make the women go mushy.

          • actovegin1armstrong

            Rod’o
            Please do not act like you are too macho to tell a good looking guy from an average guy.

            Brady is gorgeous, Aaron Rogers is very attractive, Sanchez is a great looking guy, Carson Palmer is very pretty.
            We have a league full of pretty, sissy QB’s.

            Now we have Cousins and RG3 too, both very attractive guys.

          • rodofdisaster

            Oh no. Don’t misunderstand. You won’t find anybody as comfortable with their sexuality as I am and able to discuss good looking men. I just don’t think Aaron Rodgers is that good looking. Brady, sure. Christian Ponder is an attractive man. Brett Favre, I could see. Big Ben? Only if I’m drugged and unconscious.

          • actovegin1armstrong

            I really like the Ruthlessraper dig. Bravo!

            I offer my most humble apology for questioning your confidence in your somethingality….. well….

            Yes, that is it; sexuality, that is the word I could not remember.

          • NeedsFoodBadly
          • BIKI024

            double check!

          • ClevelandFrowns

            SMH. You guys have fallen into their trap.

        • http://twitter.com/cpmack Chris M

          I… um… You mean this doesn’t do it for you?

        • http://www.autismspeaks.org/ PML

          If looks correlated to on-field performance, Timmy Chang would be the next Joe Mantegna.

          • ClevelandFrowns

            Excellent.

  • rodofdisaster

    Worry about Weeden’s longevity is silly. I’ve said that time and again. I would only compare him to Staubach who was an older rookie. The others were not. Jim Kelly played in the USFL and Moon played pro ball in Canada. Worry about his ability to play the position at a high level is more legitimate. I won’t lie. I’m a fan of Brandon Weeden. I think he brings a lot of ability to the Browns that isn’t currently on the roster.

    I do worry however about what I have seen from him at times. The video against Texas last year reminds me of some great throws but also of some bad ones and bad decisions. Watch the following. Ask yourself whether the receiver needed to show extra athleticism to catch a poor throw or whether it was a “one-foot in” catch which obviously doesn’t count in big boy football. How do the throws under pressure look?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsevlHpqatI&feature=relmfu

    • CleveLandThatILove

      I watched what you posted yesterday. Hmmm. If we were GB or NE or NO fans, we’d turn up our noses. I think it’s a matter of being served hamburger forever, and we’re excited to get a taste of sirloin. The prime rib is not even on the menu.

      It’s all about meat for me, BTW.

      • rodofdisaster

        That’s kind of my point (and I love the meat analogy too).

        I think he’s better than what’s been here so that’s an upgrade. The question about how good he can be though is altogether different. When you’re the cellar dweller in the division you need to first focus on how to compete with these guys. Every team in the division made the playoffs last year except the Browns. You have to be able to beat the defenses in this division and all three are very good.

      • actovegin1armstrong

        CLTIL,
        Yesterday Frownie had “the complete package”.
        Today:
        “It’s all about meat for me, BTW.”
        You need to get rid of that Hillis poster and date more.

    • BIKI024

      having a guy as talented as Blackmon can sometimes lead to the QB having blind faith in the guy to make a play if he throws it in a certain window. more often than not, it seems like Weeden got bailed out by Blackmon making an amazing play to make him look good, and sometimes the DB makes an amazing play to make the QB (and WR) look bad.. game of inches.. obviously in the NFL the level of play of the DB’s will be much better than the Big12 DBs he’s faced.. (although 3 CBs from Big 12 were drafted in 1st round last year)

      while everyone, including Luck, has some questionable throws on tape, the key will be the amount of work and dedication all these draft picks put in to improve their craft. it seems that Weeden is a very studious and serious dude when it comes to preperation, so hopefully he comes in here in 2 weeks and is ready to get to work with Shurmur, Chilly, and Whipple, etc.

      but good lord, there are so many throws on there that really make it frustrating that we’ll have to wait several months to see him throw like that in a Browns uniform. CAN’T WAIT

      • rodofdisaster

        True, I wish training camp started today. I think it will be a greatly anticipated debut and for good reason. It would be great to have a story similar to Andy Dalton or Cam Newton’s from last year and have the Browns be the beneficiaries of that.

        • BIKI024

          speaking of Cam, all the talk of lack of game experience for Tannehill, Newton actually played less..

          but yeah, there def seems to be excitement amongst most fans, good to see a spike in ticket sales as well.

      • TWMBrad

        All the “who made who” talk regarding Weeden and Blackmon kind of begs the question that if (a) they knew they were taking Weeden at 22; and (b) they could have landed Blackmon at 4 (without all of the Vikings-hosed-you drama) should they have just gone with the matched set instead of Richardson. Be fun to find out. If TR can’t run past the 8-9 in the box and/or Little is dropping everying Weeden throws his way, the Blackmon-Weeden combo will be all the more attractive.

        • BIKI024

          it seems like they went into draft with the hopes that they would be able to get TR at 4 (3), Wright at 22, and Weeden at 37 (or trade up for him). so close! damn you Tennessee!

          plus, they may have had Wright rated close to Blackmon, or at least closer than any seperation between TRich and their next RB on the board..

          but with Richardson’s (and BJax) threat of catching out of backfield, along with our TEs, things should open up a bit more for the WRs and they should get more chances to make plays. from the way Cribbs has been sounding, seems like the unit has a chip on their shoulder and we’ll see if they step up to the challenge. i’m a big fan of having guys playing well in their contract years (Cribbs and MoMass)

          • TWMBrad

            Agreed. The receivers will get opportunities to make plays. If they do (and the defense is at least competent), we’ll improve. If not, we fortify WR, CB and LB next year.

        • ClevelandFrowns

          Much happier with Richardson instead of Blackmon. Diversify against Big 12 pop-gun risk.

    • Captain_Spaulding

      I see a lot of not so great throws under pressure, but I also see a lot of throws that no other QB on the Browns roster can even dream of making. I also saw a lot of drops and some poor routes by Blackmon, particularly on verticals, which did not allow him to seperate from the defender.

      Not many QB’s look great throwing under pressure, but I do think that is one of the biggest things that Weeden needs to get comfortable with as he transitions from college to the NFL. Other than that, I see a lot that I could work with as a coach.

      • rodofdisaster

        He is better at these throws than Seneca or Colt. I would caution you that blaming the vertical incompletions on Blackmon isn’t fair. He’s supposed to fade those routes to the sidelines. Weeden is not supposed to throw that ball if the defender has that kind of position on him.

        • Captain_Spaulding

          With all due respect, Rod, those routes are verticals or “9” routes, not fades. Blackmon’s responsibility on a vertical is (or should be) to beat the defender (preferably through his outside shoulder), stack the defender and leave room between himself and the sideline so the QB can drop the ball over his outside shoulder if necessary. I didn’t see much of that in this video; I saw lazy releases which lead to an inability to stack and separate at the top of the route.
          To be fair, although I think Blackmon could have cleaned up his routes significantly, the first throw was clearly an overthrow and Weeden had no business throwing a couple others. More than anything else, I think Weeden is guilty of having too much confidence in Blackmon at times and throwing to him even when covered.

          • rodofdisaster

            Fair enough but a fade is really a subtype of a “9”. It’s a fair point. You can tell though that it’s not all on Blackmon. Some of those throws you just can’t pull the trigger on.

          • Captain_Spaulding

            Agreed

    • Bryan

      Rod,

      I imagine you have watched more film than me, so I am curious how you think Weeden’s overall ratio of good-to-bad throws stacks up against RGIII’s and Luck’s. I love both of those guys, but when I watch highlights of them I fell like Luck has a weaker arm than Weeden and that RGIII faced less complicated reads/throws than Weeden did.

      I am not saying Weeden is better overall, but from a pure passing point of view I think he is as good or better. Am I just turning into a homer, or is that a defensible position?

      Bryan

      • rodofdisaster

        Bryan, I would be lying if I said I felt that I could answer your question with any kind of certainty. I have seen a lot of Weeden and RGIII as they played in the Big 12 and I have seen some of Luck as I just was a fan of his.

        RGIII definitely had the simplest offense. Weeden had the strongest arm of the three. I think that Luck had the most complex offense and was the best of them at manipulating the play and the defense (looking off safeties, etc). I think you could argue that fundamentally, Weeden throws as good a pass as either of the other two but where I think the argument loses steam is when he’s on the move. Weeden is MUCH more stationary. He rarely reads more than half of the field when he’s dropping back (much easier to defend that way). He loses a ton of accuracy on the move. Luck actually throws well on the run and he and RGIII are much more athletic than Weeden.

        I can’t give you too much more to separate them but I thought that these were the top 3 QB’s in this draft. I felt there was a significant drop off to Tannehill and an even bigger drop off to the next guy (Foles or Cousins).

  • Beeej

    I think it is very important to incorporate some form of “Puff puff pass,” into the Weeden/TRich “Weeden’ feed,” dynamic. I was thinking, “Rush rush pass.” Any other ideas.

    • BIKI024

      i like where you’re heading, but wouldn’t “rush rush pass” make us even more predictable than we apparently were last year??

      • Beeej

        “Rush rush pass” has been the Browns’ offensive game plan since 1993, so it actually predates Weeden/TRich.

        • thatsfine

          More accurately, “Rush rush pass behind the line of scrimmage on third and 5″.

        • http://twitter.com/cpmack Chris M

          Pretty sure Weeden actually broke in to the Yankees farm system in ’93.

          (I’ll show myself out)

    • wiseoldredbeard

      I think it’s “pass, pass, give.” You don’t want to be f’ing up the rotation, you can get killed for that sh*t!
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNUjClJked8

      • Beeej

        That is why I opened it up to the gallery. Gazillion “likes.”

  • http://twitter.com/TDDeBord David DeBord

    I agree with Rod that worries about longevity are overblown, but I don’t think Browns fans should take much from this study, especially given its assumptions and lack of details. “Getting the chance to start” is a very different thing from a rookie entering into the league for the first time. If anything, the list in the excerpt should make Browns fans feel worse. There are no true rookies there in the sense that Weedon is. Moon, Kelly, and Warner all played in pro leagues that emphasized passing. Keep in mind, they are the outliers from these leagues (CFL, USFL, and Arena), two of which have long histories. Even Roger the Dodger spent the last couple years of his military service playing on Navy football teams to prepare himself for the NFL. Those are all very different situations than Weedon’s. Like Weedon, or don’t, based upon a lot of other factors, but this “study” appears to be cherry-picking at its finest.

    • mo_by_dick

      Can we really be sure that the CFL/USFL in the 70’s/80’s were both higher levels of competition than 2011 Big XII football? Or is your point that they had some kind of experience beyond college ball?

      • http://twitter.com/TDDeBord David DeBord

        The latter is my main point. They all had additional years of actually playing QB (and excelling at it) that Weeden doesn’t have. I agree that we cannot be too sure on the level of competition (more confident that the USFL was better than the CFL as the former competed directly with the NFL for picks), but regardless of the level of competiton, these QBs had more years of reps (without the break, even Roger) than Weedon does.

      • Petefranklin

        Usfl was pretty darn good football, Cfl is great for QB’s with the bigger field and throwing much more(3 downs). Big 12 defenses seem to be a step below Arena league defenses these last few years.

    • ClevelandFrowns

      Good points.

  • Captain_Spaulding

    I posted a link to that article here a few weeks ago, but nobody seemed to interested at the time, so I’m glad it’s getting some run here now that Weeden is our guy.

    Once you get over the age issue, it’s tough not to like him. I actually think his age can be a real positive for him in the lockerroom.

    • kjn

      He can get the rental if the rookies carpool.

      • Captain_Spaulding

        Perfect example.

        • kjn

          If he was on the roster during Mangini’s tenure, that whole bus-gate thing might never have happened.

          • Beeej

            HEY YO!!!

  • Shadow_play

    That Mangini “Spygate” apology was stupid. Made me lose some respect for Mangini.

    • ClevelandFrowns

      Well, that’s, um, just, like, your opinion, man.

      • Shadow_play

        Yeah, Mangini did the right thing now he’s backtracking? Stick to your guns man.

  • kjn

    Odd for Mangini to talk about this now. Angling to be accepted back in the fold by Bill or for a job else where?

    • BIKI024

      nah, John Harbaugh started it yesterday by saying the Pats and Saints championships were tainted due to the cheating. so Mangini responded to Harbaugh’s claim and feels bad for the Pats that him ratting them out for cheating is affecting more than just BB. having Tedy Bruschi sitting next to you steaming about being called a cheater probably didn’t help either.

      • kjn

        Thanks for the clarification. Hadn’t followed the story.

    • http://twitter.com/cpmack Chris M

      Harbaugh (Baltimore version I think) said something about New England’s titles being tainted because they were cheating. I’m pretty sure that’s what brought the subject up.

  • Captain_Spaulding

    Fujita just got suspended for the first 3 games; good thing they added to the LB group.

    • BIKI024

      there are a ton of decent veteran OLB’s still available in FA, wonder if they will bring someone in or have Kaluka fill in again..

      • Captain_Spaulding

        Missing Fujita for a few games is nothing new; shouldn’t be a big deal. I doubt they bring in a FA though, I think they would rather see what they have with the young guys and Marcus Benard should be back to provide depth as well.

        • bupalos

          Fujita wasn’t going to play 16 games anyway. I was expecting worse.

        • BIKI024

          i guess FO stance on Benard is that he’ll be DE on passing downs.. but yeah, i guess we’ll see if the guys we have will step up before going through waiver wire..

      • Petefranklin

        In my best father from the movie Breaking Away voice when his son says that maybe he should give a refund on a used car REEEEEFUUND??? FREEEEEEEE AGENT???? whaaaa FREEEEEE AGENT???? If they’re free how come they cost so much?

    • dubbythe1

      i think they should trade or cut him anyway, along with Seneca. More cap space.

    • TWMBrad

      Not sure what the new CBA has to say about appeals of player suspensions, but these will probably go the distance (whatever that means – District Court in Minnesota again?) Would not be suprised if the issue gets as ugly as the lockout last year and we’re still talking about in Sept.

      • Captain_Spaulding

        I don’t think the players have much of a leg to stand on if the reports are true. Vilma reportedly offered $10k to knock out Warner and Favre in 2009; that’s a pretty clear violation of league rules. Also reported that one of the players suspended, Anthony Hargrove, submitted a “signed declaration” to the league that he knew about and participated in the bounty program.

        • TWMBrad

          I’d much rather represent the NFL, but the players have at least a plausible argument – they were operating under the direction and control of Gregg Williams with the tacit approval of Saints upper management. It’s kind of a lame argument and smacks of people looking the other way or worse while the SS marched down the streets of Berlin, but it’s something…

  • thatsfine

    Here are a few reasons I like Weeden… To quote my HS basketball coach, size and strength aren’t teachable. For that matter, accuracy isn’t teachable either, but can be improved with practice. Weeden has these covered. Footwork and timing, those aren’t teachable either, but they are coachable (they can be improved, but some inherent talents and gifts are required to be in place). Weeden is good with both of these, though there is room to improve.

    Decision-making is the biggest question here. I see no reason why a good QB coach and OC can’t improve Weeden’s decision making in their system, unless: 1) They aren’t good coaches, 2) The system is flawed, 3) The QB lacks the composure or intelligence to improve. Of these 3 items, my biggest concern is #2. Hopefully the system isn’t fatally flawed in today’s NFL, and can be lifted up by a better QB. This is why I am another person that wishes the season was starting next month.

    • BIKI024

      way too much has been made about “our system”. it’s only a system if everyone does their role, doesn’t matter what variation of WCO or smash mouth, run to daylight, etc. guys need to block, throw a good ball, and catch the ball, and run with the ball. we didn’t do any of those things very well. it seems like we’ve added talent to the personnel as well as coaching staff to hopefully get all the players on the same page so that “the system” is run the way it was designed. because as several WCO teams have proven time after time after time, that when properly executed, the system works.

      • mo_by_dick

        “systems aren’t just made of bricks, they’re mostly made of people” – Crass

        • mo_by_dick

          just scratched “quoting crass on clevelandfrowns.com” off of my bucket list, btw

          • thatsfine

            That wasn’t on my bucket list, but I am glad that it has been accomplished nonetheless.

          • 6thCity

            It’s so Cleveland to have Crasd quoted on a Browns site. So Cleveland.

          • ClevelandFrowns

            The Brecksville Five approves.

            #FREETHEBRECKSVILLEFIVE

      • thatsfine

        Fully agreed that the Browns didn’t do well anything you’ve outlined as far as fundamentals of offense go. I also agree that, when properly executed, this system is workable. However, compared to the other items I listed, it is the largest concern. Really, it is probably not the system itself, but the predictability that developed last year. Whether or not that predictability was a result of a dearth of talent or a lack of imagination on the part of those calling the shots is the question that is going to be answered this year.

        • Petefranklin

          Predictibility, I guess we’ll see this year if there are indeed rogue plays involved to keep the D’s honest and off of TRich. Didn’t Bill Walsh demand one Bomb per quarter to keep the short stuff from getting jumped? I’m pretty sure Shurmer doesn’t have that in him, but maybe Childress does. Lets hope.

  • wiseoldredbeard

    Solid article recommendation. Question: how has no one from the PD ever written an article about a draft pick that was that insightful and thought out?

    • dubbythe1

      probably because they actually do it for a living.

      /sarcasm off

    • Beeej

      Apparently insight and content don’t generate page views. Controversy and sensationalism is what sells newspapers to sports fans.

      • TWMBrad

        Pluto summed up their strategy in his last article (link below). Basically, they watch a few You Tube videos and claim to have the expertise to criticize a selection (in his article, it was Scwartz v. Martin or Massie). I’m not really critical of Pluto for his approach – at least he’s honest about it and he’s more of an editorial guy than a nuts & bolts beat reporter – but if maybe MKC put in the effort demonstrated above, Terry would have more to comment about.

        http://www.cleveland.com/pluto/blog/index.ssf/2012/05/performance_not_draft_placemen.html

        • jpftribe

          To be fair, Pluto is usually a pretty pragmatic reporter and has to cater to the lowest common denominator, ie the typical PD reader. MKC is in the same category as Grossi with trying to create something that isn’t there because they are generally clueless.

          The beauty of the internet is not having to read that stuff as gospel, and, having half a brain, find places like Frowns to get information that is not boiled down to sea salt on the bottom of the pan, when it’s really dirt from Lake Erie that happens to be white.

      • BIKI024

        Journalism 101

  • bupalos

    Cappy posted that article a few weeks back, it’s what had me marginally in the Weeden @ 37 fold.

    There is no question that the age thing is overblown by a factor of 10, but for my money, the under-pressure freakouts are similarly…um…under-blown? This guy did some nightmare shit when people got in his face. Or near his face. Or near his feet. If he fails, that’s going to be why.

    I’m guessing people have seen the combination safety/pick 6 play that is on the Gruden interview? That’s the kind of thing I can’t get out of my head. The one thing I take solace in is that he really didn’t start all that much overall, so maybe that was more “college rookie” stuff. I’d like to go back and see whether he improved on this over time.

    I do respect him for being able to refrain from drilling a football through Gruden’s head.

    • BIKI024

      i believe i’ve seen Brady and Brees throw Pick 6’s, recently, against our Brownies in fact. it happens, to the best of them. nobody tends to throw too well with dudes in their face. that is why we drafted Schwartz instead of Hill so that we can hopefully close up that gaping hole on the right side of the line and give whoever is back there a pocket and time to get rid of it in a timely manner.

      • TWMBrad

        It’s what you do after the pick that determines your career. Weeden has the relievers makeup to move on to the next play and not hang his head. I think it was against Oklahoma last year that he threw two early picks but ended up throwing a bunch to TD’s to rally for the win (he talked about it on Gruden’s show).

        • bupalos

          If he can’t keep his head when guys get near him, he won’t have a career, plain and simple. I don’t care how much he keeps his head up after he freaks out. That’s got to get fixed.

          • BIKI024

            while 26 picks over 2 years sounds high, he threw the ball 750 times, that’s a very good ratio. 3.5% to be exact. not sure how many of those picks count as “freak out” pick.. but if it’s less than 1% of his throws, i can live with that..

      • ClevelandFrowns

        Not our Brownies. Mangini’s Brownies. Those Brownies are gone.

        • BIKI024

          yeah that’s not how it works for me bud, but I’ll definitely buy you a sweatshirt of your new favorite team wherever Mangini’s next coaching gig is…

    • thatsfine

      If Weeden drilled a football through Gruden’s skull he would earn enough goodwill from football fans to instantly replace any starting QB in the league with very little argument.

    • thatsfine

      If Weeden drilled a football through Gruden’s skull he would earn enough goodwill from football fans to instantly start for any team in the league with minimal argument.

      • NeedsFoodBadly

        oh absolutely. I’d buy his jersey immediately. Maybe get a tattoo of his face.

  • BIKI024

    RIP Junior Seau. shot dead, damn

    • dubbythe1

      suspected suicide atm. indeed, R.I.P. thoughts for the family…

      • BIKI024

        i was just reminded about how he drove off a cliff a couple years ago after fighting with his girl. claimed he fell asleep. man if this NFL brain damage stuff has anything to do with this…

        • kjn

          i had forgot about that.

        • actovegin1armstrong

          Biki,
          You may be too young to remember the commercials, but,
          “The mind is a terrible thing.”
          It may have been the concussions for Seau.

          A garbage truck hit me in the face 20 years ago, I had a helicopter ride as well as about a year that I do not remember.
          I have had much less confidence since my head bounced around and I do not notice, but while I am still quick with the repartee, my friends notice that I do not really laugh anymore.

          My apologies for too much personal information, but the Mike Webster, Barret Robbins and now Seau stories make me question, football impacts. I can empathize and I wish there was a way to fix the problem, but the only way I can see is to abolish collision sports.

          I now feel guilty for all of the times I KO, or TKO’d guys back in my boxing days.

          The object of the sport is to give your opponent brain damage. Boxing and its less beautiful incantations should probably cease to exist.

          • rodofdisaster

            Sorry about that acto-

            I suffered a severe concussion when I was 13 and someone accidentally headbutted me after a play in phys ed. I would up delirious with double vision and puking my guts out in the ER.

            In the years since, I will tell you that I’ve had a lot of the symptoms that these NFL guys describe and I only had ONE concussion.

            Couple this with the fact that it’s very hard for a player whose whole life has been football and his whole popularity and societal value has been about or tied to the sport is now cast out from it voluntarily or not.

            A few years ago one of my colleagues retired and the hardest part for him was that he had been a doctor his whole adult life. That’s how people identified him and that’s what he identified with. It’s very hard when it’s all you’ve ever known.

          • NeedsFoodBadly

            “It’s very hard when it’s all you’ve ever known.”

            You can see that a lot in football players like Favre and boxers like Bernard Hopkins or Evander Holyfield. The money’s a thing, sure, but the spotlights and attention and sense of identity are probably stronger pulls. Hell, even Michael Jordan couldn’t retire gracefully.

          • actovegin1armstrong

            Thank you Rod’o, and sorry about your concussion too.
            You do however; make me look bad. You had a severe concussion, but you are obviously still an intelligent guy.
            It makes it more difficult for me to blame my general ignorance on my head injury.

          • BIKI024

            def sorry to hear about that. but you do laugh at the Clownies don’t you?

          • actovegin1armstrong

            I always laugh at the Clownies Biki, I am laughing on the inside.

          • BIKI024

            well it seem’s you’ll probably have to attend next year’s Frowns draft party. hopefully our record (and draft pick #) will not be a laughing matter, but seeing Frownie do about 42 headstands may do the trick. just ask CLTIL, she was smiling ear-to-ear watching Frownie do his thang

          • actovegin1armstrong

            Biki,
            Did you just pull 42 out of the recesses of your mind or are you one of “us”?

          • BIKI024

            Try to increase awareness of the number 42, or 420 any chance i can get.. it’s bout that time!

          • actovegin1armstrong

            Biki,
            That makes sense, enjoy your 4:20! My dog, cat, koi and house sitter will be in the backyard indulging at 4:20 EDT then again at 4:20 CDT.
            I thought that you may have been making a reference to a great man who was once my hero and became my friend, Douglass Adams.

          • BIKI024

            who knows, it could’ve originated from Douglass Adams, but one of my good friends back in middle school used to always say 42, and ever since then i always notice 42 randomly, just one of those numbers. i’ll wiki old dougie fresh and see what the story is

          • actovegin1armstrong

            I wish he was still alive, 28 million and he used most of it to help animals.
            He was a great guy.

          • actovegin1armstrong

            Biki,
            Do you know the answer to Life, The Universe and Everything?

        • smittypop2

          I would be 100% sure that it does. Almost makes me not want to watch football anymore. I feel awful for these guys and the more “our generation” they are the more it hits home.

          • ClevelandFrowns

            Right with you, Smitty. Awful.

            They should go back to the leather helmets.

        • Beeej

          Bubba Smith was on WMJI this morning saying he had 20 concussions over his career.

          • BIKI024

            Junior or Bubba?

          • Beeej

            Bubba. He said in one game he got his bell rung, they held up 2 fingers he said “Five,” and they sent him back out. He ended up getting the game ball for “toughness.” He didn’t remember a thing from the game.

          • CleveLandThatILove

            Heinen’s carries Bubba’s ribs now.

          • BIKI024

            Bubba Baker? i think Bubba Smith died as well

          • Beeej

            My bad. Knew it was a Bubba, but could only think of Smith.

          • BIKI024

            his BBQ joint up in Avon is da bomb!

        • Beeej

          I loved playing football all through youth and high school, but with the concussions and the toll his has taken on my body since…horrible shoulders, bad knee, back problems; I will never let me kids play. It’s not worth it.

      • kjn

        if that’s the case, the concussion talk is gonna be off the charts.

    • kjn

      say what you will, but tmz breaks a whole lot of stories.

    • http://www.autismspeaks.org/ PML

      Wow – he is in the town next to me. He drove off a cliff a while back right by my house in Carlsbad. That’s horrible. – Just saw your follow up post, Biki.

      • BIKI024

        listenin to Max and Marcellus on 710, man, it’s tough to hear a big dude like Marcellus cry

    • TWMBrad

      He was a bad apple at LB. Sad.

      This probably doesn’t help the players bargaining position fighting the suspensions of Fujita et al. Too many dudes leaving the NFL with mental health/suicidal issues to ignore it.

      • BIKI024

        and NHL players..

        • TWMBrad

          Agreed. But apparently it’s not impacting the NBA since World Peace got off with a slap on the wrist after going Street Fighter on Harden..

    • Captain_Spaulding

      Terrible, just terrible.

      RIP Junior.

    • Believelander

      Police are saying suicide, but it’s probably going to prove to be a homicide, they just don’t want to rock the boat yet. He was shot in the chest. Try pointing an imaginary gun at your chest, then imagine you’re a dude Seau’s size. It’s possible he shot himself in the chest, it’s just not very probable.

      • BIKI024

        it’s not physically probably he shot himself in the chest? it seems to me that the fact that he’s a “dude Seau’s size” that it would be easier to shoot himself, harder to miss at least. i mean, it seems pretty damn easy actually. i mean the dude did drive off a cliff, did you see the video of that? i mean, he really drove off a cliff, crazy he survived.

  • dr. jew

    Weeden was a silly, silly pick. If he optimizes his potential, he will be a decent second-tier quarterback in the AFC — no one can realistically expect him ever to be as good as Brady, Roethlesberger, Flacco, Rivers, Manning, Palmer, or even Schaub. If the Browns are ever going to be a real contender, they’re going to need a legitimate top-flight quarterback. Weeden ain’t him. They should have used the pick to get a long-term answer to one of their many needs, rather than just a (potential) upgrade at a position that will still need attention down the line.

    • http://twitter.com/cpmack Chris M

      You lost me when you put Flacco in the same sentence as Brady.

      • TWMBrad

        …and Palmer (I know he played well in 05-06, but still not in the same league as the others). Isn’t there something to be said, though, for righting the ship with just competent QB play? Not sure where that was going to come from in 2012 without Weeden. And it Colt and/or Weeden produce more than expected, all’s the better.

        • http://twitter.com/cpmack Chris M

          I can’t even imagine how many more games the Browns would have won if they even had mediocre quarterback play.

          • BIKI024

            yeah but you know, since teams knew we couldn’t score, they took it easy against us and played conservatively. so who knows how many more points opposing teams would score on us if we had even mediocre QB play… instead of being in top 10 in points allowed, i’m sure we would’ve been in the bottom 5 if teams actually tried against us..

        • kjn

          Amen on righting the ship. It’s worth noting that most of the dominant teams (NE, GB, PIT, NYG) had decent-to-great QBing in place when they found their SB quarterback. I hate the cliche, but great shouldn’t be the enemy of good.

          Not to mention that if H&H want to keep their job, they can’t wait for some non-questions, perfect QB.

      • clay

        Me too.

    • bupalos

      You do realize that damaged, old, overpaid Carson Palmer just went for nearly double the draft value of Weeden?

      Decastro was in my mind a much better pick there. This is a lot riskier. But there is no way you can call it silly. The difference between a decent QB and a bad one is definitely enough to take the chance.

    • Believelander

      Disagree with you entirely. The expectations of a QB prospect like Weeden is to be a Matt Schaub caliber quarterback. A lot of people think the Texans would have sh*trolled the playoffs with Schaub. If you build an amazing team, you can win with even an average QB. With a Schaub type, you can win with a really good team. The superstar QBs can win with just a good team. Or fate could bounce your way and you could win the Super Bowl.

      The point is, even in our tough division, Weeden doesn’t have to be Joe Montana. He just has to be really good, and that’s well within his potential based on all the analysis of him. And by the way, Joe Montana was a 3rd round pick.

  • https://twitter.com/jimkanicki jimkanicki

    regarding seau, head trauma, and the nfl’s doublespeak about wanting to protect their players — this is a relevant ditty i baked up from 2010.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LsJPjW6XpFA

    not sure, but i dont think anything has changed with the nfl rules on this in the interim.

    • mo_by_dick

      this is remarkably weird & amazing

    • bupalos

      The NFL is in a bit of a tough spot. Given simple physics equations, concussions are going to be some part of the game regardless. I think what they need to do is go completely subjective and fine the crap out of anything where the violence of the hit is out of proportion to it’s football value. Any roughness that is unnecessary should be unnecessary roughness, 15 yards and a percentage of salary. You can’t write simple rules for this, it has to simply be at the discretion of refs and league officials.

      Are wanna-be tough guy fans going to bitch about this? You bet. Is it going to solve the problem? Only very partially. But we’re probably about to see a parade of these cases, and the money/viewership equation for the NFL is about to change. It’s just too sad.

      • Beeej

        I don’t think you can take away the hits, which makes me thinks more focus should be on the equipment. Didn’t Merton Hanks wear some sort of special helmet b/c of concussions?

        • https://twitter.com/jimkanicki jimkanicki

          cant do much with equipment because the brain bruises inside the skull.

          • NeedsFoodBadly

            A lot of studies have shown that it’s not even the concussions that are the biggest problem – it’s just the repeated, sub-concussive force that occurs on every day. Especially damaging for linemen who get that every play.

            Don’t know what equipment can ameliorate those effects.

          • kjn

            Ah, brevity. Need to learn that.

          • NeedsFoodBadly

            I made this response before I saw what you’d written below – I felt bad when I saw how comprehensively you’d covered the issue, haha.

          • https://twitter.com/jimkanicki jimkanicki

            no you did better. :)

          • Believelander

            I’m a mechanic, I can tell you right now what would reduce (not eliminate, but reduce) the play-by-play sub-concussive force. It’s just not that practical.

      • https://twitter.com/jimkanicki jimkanicki

        the thing that bugs me about the current rules is that you can target the head if a guy has the ball but not if he’s ‘defense-less.’

        and of course if its sissy QB, if you brush the helmet with your towel, it’s a penalty. meanwhile in the link above harrison takes a blind side head shot on cribbs but… ‘cribbs had the ball. no penalty.’

        like, huh? either you want to protect players heads or you dont. the nhl is changing its culture.

        the other irony is that it’s the players’ union grieving head shot fines. like… guys? arent you supposed to be protecting players?

        • Believelander

          The suits that actually run unions are only interested in revenue generation.

          • actovegin1armstrong

            Believe,
            White Lithium Helmet Grease?
            Start selling it today

      • kjn

        The problem is that Purdue did a study that suggests that consistent hitting of helmets a.k.a. normal wear-and-tear, not big hits, result in concussions.

        “Over the two seasons we had six concussed players, but 17 of the players showed brain changes even though they did not have concussions,” Talavage said.”

        “This is still circumstantial evidence, but it suggests that whether you are concussed or not your brain is changing as a result of all these hits, and the regions most affected are the ones that exhibit CTE,” Nauman said.

        You can find reports on the study online (not sure if the report itself is available).

        If that’s the case, outlawing the Jerome Harrison’s of the world won’t be enough. It would require completely changing the game to something… god, I don’t know what… something that would make arena football look like gladitorial combat.

        People laugh when I say this, but I really think we’ve seen the high water mark of football and the NFL. It’s all down hill from here.

        • ClevelandFrowns

          Leather helmets and pads would solve all of these problems.

          • jpftribe

            Rugby has found a way. There are some bad ass dudes playing that game worldwide.

          • kjn

            “That argument, however, doesn’t actually square with reality. Rugby, as it turns out, has plenty of problems with head injuries. According to one study, in South Africa about 14% of high school rugby players and 23% of professional and club players annually are diagnosed with concussions. Further, Michael Keating, the medical director for USA Rugby, says that a review of the scientific literature indicates that the number of incidences of concussions among rugby players and American-football players are similar. Some data suggest rugby incidence is 5% higher.”

            From an article in Time magazine. You can Google it– “NFL Football’s Concussion Problem”. It was written before the findings in the Purdue study.

          • kjn

            Maybe, but… (I am speaking purely out of my backside here and making many assumptions…)

            If the Purdue study is correct then it’s not so much the force of the hits but the number of the hits (which aren’t really even hits, but rather normal football contact).

            I don’t see a leather helmet (or any helmet for that matter) being able to completely absorb the force of such hits.

            You’re talking about making a perfect helmet that would absorb the force from the all the regular contact that happens in a game of football. Is that possible by the laws of physics? How do you absorb those forces in a way to ensure that the brain doesn’t get rattled?

            The other thing people always point out is a change in the rules or culture. “Teach proper tackling that doesn’t use the head” and so on. These conversations invariably cite rugby as an example. The problem with that is that studies show that rugby has a comparable concussion rate as well. Which means, what? I’m not quite sure.

            I don’t know. I just don’t see this one going away or being easily addressed. Color me suspicious.

          • rodofdisaster

            It won’t because concussions are not about protecting the head. They’re about protecting the brain. The difference being that a helmet will shield you from trauma to the skull but the brain (surrounded by cerebr0-spinal fluid) will still move. The force to the front of the skull will result in a frontal contusion and a concussion to the back of the brain as it hits the back of the skull (as an example). The “coup” and “contre-coup” phenomenon. Sorry…better helmets won’t eliminate concussions. It’s part of playing a rough sport.

          • Believelander

            Yeah Frowns remember that Mike Webster, the Steelers center from the 70s, was judged by an autopsy to have sustained head trauma equal to 10,000 car wrecks. The brain accumulates damage, it doesn’t just repair it in the same way as the rest of your body because the brain can’t. The sad truth is, football will at some point have to come to grips with the fact that football is lethal to its players, and there’s nothing you can do about it without fundamentally changing the game into something that’s not football.

          • CleveLandThatILove

            The bupettes have been saying this for years now.

          • Petefranklin

            Local radio guy here in LV, Dave Cokin, thinks in 10 years there wont be any 3 point stances or kicks.Says high schools in NV should ban them now, dont know if I agree though.I used to love the idea of leather helmets, but maybe eliminating facemasks would help.

        • TWMBrad

          If the Kiwi’s can invent the Zorb for full body protection, the head should be small potatoes. Forget Purdue, let’s get Aukland University on the problem.
          http://www.zorb.com/zorb/home-2

        • actovegin1armstrong

          kjn,
          I have a buddy who played for his country, as well as in the MLS (I hope that is correct, he won a championship, but I did not watch it.)
          He has a lot of problems with post concussion symptoms.
          He was only heading a light little ball, but that much sloshing his little brain around created severe issues.
          I read some well intended, but not even remotely empirical studies that endorse the “futball leads to brain damage” correlation.

          Ban all sports!

      • jim

        Assumption of the risk. When you put a helmet on and play professional football, you are accepting a number of inherent risks with that decision. That includes head trauma and concussions. Will be interesting to see if the NFL raises this defense in any of these lawsuits; one has to think they will.

    • CleveLandThatILove

      Harrison’s going to be a mess, he’s probably symptomatic already.

  • bupalos

    5 starts into 2012, is there anyone who wouldn’t take back the Ubaldo trade now?

    • CleveLandThatILove

      Back to the minors like Cliff Lee.

    • kjn

      Me. Albert Pujols has no HRs. It’s April.

      • kjn

        er… May 2nd… April 32rd…which is really our first second April on the Holmgren Calendar…

      • bupalos

        Really? At this point, right now, you think Ubaldo Jiminez is more likely to be a better pitcher than Drew Pomeranz?

        Personally, I wish Pomz was taking Ubaldo’s next start. We’ll see how long you can hold out kj.

        • ClevelandFrowns

          It is a good point about Pujols, though. #hope

          • bupalos

            Be a lot better point if

            A. Pujols wasn’t really 35
            B. Pujols didn’t always start slowly
            C. Ubaldo had posted more than 1 Pujols-like season out of 5
            D. Pomeranz wasn’t Pomeranz

          • TWMBrad

            But he was so good in his first start (8 innings of 1 run ball I think). Makes me think it’s a mental barrier, hence some reason for hope.

          • ClevelandFrowns

            Who invited the wet blanket?

          • bupalos

            Hey, if you’re going to go slappy-happy on Weeden, someone has to keep the site namesake pure.

          • kjn

            Your C is wrong. If you look at K and BB rates, Ubaldo has been the same pitcher the last four years. Those numbers are the main indicators of the quality of a pitcher. Stats like ERA are not a good indicator.

            Basically, ERA and wins are rubbish.

            Also, Pomeranz hasn’t looked all that good thus far.

          • kjn

            And since I’m fact checking, your #2 is wrong too. Mar/Apr is his 2nd highest month for HRs over his career.

          • bupalos

            I can go with SO/BB being important, but ERA is rubbish on par with W/L?? That I don’t get.

            I’ll grant that Pomeranz’s first 38 innings in the major leagues have not been so much better than Established Ace Ubaldo’s last 200 that you’d drop your beer. But they have been better. And you might want to think again about what we are comparing before that makes you feel too much better. And compare those deliveries again too before being too sure about relative risk.

            I agree it’s early. Here’s hoping the comparison gets anything but worse.

            BTW it was Pujols himself who claimed he’s a slow starter, suggesting he’s had at least 2 worse starts. He’s probably spinning that, but I do remember him being a little slow last year at least.

          • kjn

            ERA is dependent on a bunch of things pitchers have no control over – defense and park being the big two. You’re right that it’s not complete rubbish like W/L, but it is still a pretty deceptive stat that is overvalued. Look at Ubaldo’s last start — that drop by Donald was ruled a hit (I believe) which hurts J’s ERA.

            I’ll admit Ubaldo has had a bad, bad season thus far. There’s plenty to worry about with him. I’ll also admit the Pomeranz may be a quality player down the road. In short, I can see disagreeing with the trade.

            But what drives me nuts has been the typical Clevelander response- complain and critique. It just tires me out.

            If you look at UJ’s numbers, not his W/L or ERA, but the ones that show how he has really performed over the last four years, you’ll see a quality pitcher who can give you 200 IP. For us at the end of last year, he was basically the same pitcher he’s always been – high Ks, high BBs. He gave up more runs though thanks to a high HR rate, something that has large variance for all pitchers from year to year. Of course, nobody wants to believe that.

            If he continues to suck, I’ll happily call the trade a bust. But what I won’t say is that it was a dumb trade at the time.

          • acto

            Bupa,
            It is not related to his performance this year, but rumor has it that the other shoemay drop” on Pujols.

        • kjn

          I’d also point out that Masterson has been nearly as bad as Ubaldo thus far this year. So are you ready to throw him under the bus too? He has a far weaker track record than Jimenez.

    • Believelander

      I blew a lot of optimistic smoke when the trade happened, and I understand what they were trying to do, but I would take the trade back in a heartbeat. Primarily because of Pomeranz, I don’t think Alex White is ever going to be anything stellar. I know they didn’t want to be sitting there in 4-5 years after all the talent we got for nothing (Cabrera, Choo, Santana) and the back-end of guys who weren’t going to stick around (Masterson, Brantley) are gone, with all-star pitcher(s) and calling people frantically to try to unload guys they have no chance of re-signing.

      But with the way things are going, it feels like the Indians might have missed their contention window. We’ll see. There’s still a little under two seasons to hope it all comes together, the Tribe actually -catches- a break for once, and the team thunders through a season on a run towards the World Series title.

      #hope

    • BIKI024

      Pomeranz isn’t exactly lighting things up either. while his numbers are slightly better, he’s 0-1. he had a quality start yesterday, but we’ll see how it plays out.

      the weather hasn’t been the kindest to Ubaldo, may affect some pitchers more than others. plenty of season to go. and if we’re going to stay in this race this year, i’d rather have a vet like Jiminez than who knows what from Pomz. we’ll see how how looks once the nice weather is consistent..

  • http://twitter.com/mjh4259 Mary

    More Weedin readin from the OK State website. I love these guys, but there’s a part of me that worries they are sort of naive or “babes in the woods” about the transition from college to pros and are going to be way undercoached. Hope I’m worrying too much and that they take the AFC North by storm: http://www.okstate.com/sports/m-footbl/spec-rel/043012aab.html

  • bupalos

    Interesting cite, kjn. I don’t think penalties and fines would solve it, that would only be a part of getting people to play a different way.

  • bupalos

    That might do it.

  • jpftribe

    Frowns, great post once again and very much appreciated.

    After reading the post, the article and 135 comments I’ll add the following.

    Never been a big fan of Holmgren or Shurmur, but have been a big fan of Heckert. The more I read about this draft, the more I appreciate Heckert.

    Media thinking would have you drafting the best available player OR a need or some combination. I think it is far more sophisticated than that. Kiper is going to rank the best available at a certain position, the lowest common demoniator across the NFL.

    The reality is the elite teams are drafting players that fit a certain criteria withn their systems. That is why New England is legendary, god forbid, the Steelers seem to hit regardless of where they pick, and the Giants have been solid.

    When you look at it from that perspective, this draft makes a lot of sense.
    TR – super back that can run, catch and block, take a lot of heat off the passer and an immediate threat for opposing defenses in a really tough defensive positions.

    BW – Big, strong arm, can make all the throws, potential for better decision making, reads and high completion percentage.

    MS – Versatile RT, teammate of Mack, the play caller on the line, good run blocker

    JH – This is the most controversial pick, but there are reports NO was going to take him in two more spots. Big, physical build, run stopper, maybe a top physical nose tackle type player in the draft, but falls to 3rd round because of issues. If this guy can stop the run in the late 3rd or 4th quarter, no one will care where he was drafted. Further, if he can hold his own in Q2 and Q3 so Taylor can stop the run in Q4 then only the defensive coaches appreciate his worth.

    TW – I view this as another Ice Cube McNeil. I think it is optimistic to think he will be a starting NFL receiver, but can definitely free up Cribbs to be. Anything beyond that, for a 4th round pick is a bonus.

    Then they went for depth on LB’s and lineman. Even the media has rated them high on value with their later round picks. If any of these guys contribute in a big way, they have done really well.

    Again, not big on Holmgren or Shurmur, but Heckert done well in the draft. The only criticism I have is he has done nothing in the FA department. It will be interesting to see if they go after Gaffney of Jones.

    • rodofdisaster

      jpf,

      I don’t disagree much with your assessment and I, too, have been a Heckert admirer for what he did in Philly. I would play “Devil’s Advocate” though. I would argue that to take certain players that “fit” requires a “reach for need” which is somewhat complex not to mention risky.

      Weeden is a mild reach at 22 in my mind but understand that they probably passed on better football players to take him. I can live with that because Weeden is a QB we can throw out the rules when it’s a QB. I think that Schwartz is a good versatile player but there were better overall football players available at this pick at many different positions.

      Gosh darnit, the Steelers filled all their needs with value while the Browns filled most of their needs with some reaching. In 5 years we could look back and Heckert will be a genius because 3 or 4 of these guys are starting but you’re taking a huge risk by passing on better football players. Is Stephen Hill, Rueben Randle or Alshon Jeffery a better WR than Schwartz is an OL? I don’t know but the Browns had better hope not because they ignored better players at another position of need. Heckert does go against the grain a little bit but it’s boom or bust and the Browns can’t afford bust.

      One thing you can say looking back is that when Heckert has reached (e.g., Hardesty, TJ Ward) the players have indeed been limited by what limitations he gambled on. Hardesty has been injured and done nothing. Ward is limited by injury and has been steady but not necessarily stellar. They took Ward and passed on Rob Gronkowski and Lamarr Houston both of whom had potential 1st round grades. Sure hindsight is 20/20 but passing on good football players to reach for need will not necessarily get you ahead.

      • BIKI024

        “the Steelers filled all their needs with value” – value according to who? Mcshay? Scouts, Inc? sure by comparing draft books, it seems like they got “value”, but we’ll see.

        fact of the matter is, especially in the AFC North, you first must address the trenches, and we had a wide open hole on the right side. i can live with taking a RT with 2nd round pick over WR, especially ones that have question marks like Hill, etc. By all accounts it seems Schwartz should give us the stability and performance we need to anhor the right side and open things up for run and pass game.

        FWIW, Randle slipped to 3rd, it doesn’t seem out of the realm of possiblity that Heckert would’ve taken him if he made it a few more picks to us, I don’t believe we traded down with Denver until after Randle went off the board..

        as far as drafting for need, Heckert has said all along that that is not their philosophy. Too bad we don’t get access to their draft boards, because that would obviously answer a lot of questions. Frownie, that should be your next pro-bono case, suing the Browns for their draft board, it should be public domain!

        • rodofdisaster

          BIKI, are you telling me that the Browns’ draft represents them drafting “best available” since they “don’t draft for need”?

          • BIKI024

            I’m telling you that I would love to see their draft board.. he has said all along they don’t draft for need, and his boy Grigson gave a presser yesterday about how they have been burned in the past in Philly drafting for need. I’m sure drafting for need factors in determining their board, but again, i would love to see our board, not Todd McShay’s or Scouts, Inc board..

          • rodofdisaster

            That’s true. If McShay or Kiper were really that much better at determining relative value then they’d be working in the NFL, not at the four letter network.

          • BIKI024

            i’m sure they are pretty smart guys, but none of them that i’m aware of have actually worked for a team, and through the process of running an NFL team’s scouting dept and making their own draft board customized to a team’s philosophy, needs, culture, etc. and they definitely don’t have a staff 30+ deep in the scouting and personnel dept and the dozends of freelance scouts working specifically under the same directives.

      • actovegin1armstrong

        Rod’o,
        You know I love you and I shall always defer to your superior football knowledge and intelligence in general, but please help me out on this one….
        What am I missing on Steven Hill?
        I watched a few games and I was suitably unimpressed.
        What do you see in him besides the “combine hero” attributes?
        I respect his intelligence, affable demeanor and fully lucid candor with less than brilliant reporters. I really like that about him, he is a good kid.
        What did you see on the field of play?

        • rodofdisaster

          The reasons I would have been interested in Stephen Hill are several, including that he has prototypical size for the position. He’s nearly 6’5″ and ran a 4.36 40. He has a lot of lower body explosion with an 11+ foot long jump and a decent vertical. Obviously, you draft on production and that’s where he’s hurt by having played in a triple option offense. The real thing that intrigues me about this kid though is that (IMO) Georgia Tech tends to put out WRs who really run block well and I like the players who contribute that way.You don’t play WR at Ga Tech if yoiu can’t run block. If you look at “Georgia Tech 2011″ highlights you can (with difficulty) tease him out on the run plays to get a sense that he can run block.

          That said, Stephen Hill has one strike against him and I think of it as my own personal “potential bust barometer” and that is that all of the highlights you see played over and over again are against one or two teams. Never draft a players whose highlights are all vs one team or against teams that you don’t even recognize. That’s the “Vernon Gholston Rule”. Gholston’s pre-draft highlights were all against Michigan.

          In Hill’s defense, there is a relative lack of game film available to us.

      • jpftribe

        Rod-
        Appreciate the devils advocate argument, I find myself there often.

        My larger point was not that they bypassed better football players, I think that is obviously the case, but they bypassed players that were marginally better than what they have for players that were wholesale better than what they have.

        Frankly, I have you to partially blame for my line of thought. :)

        Going back to your x’s and o’s on wide receiver, the issue with the Browns was the 1 receiver, someone who could stretch the defense and open up option for the rest of the receiver corp. Seems to me, once they lost Blackmon, Wright and Floyd, they lost the number 1. Next best thing was stretch laterally and Benjamin was the best player available for that. Is Hill, Randle or Jeffery a better all around WR prospect? Yeah, no doubt. But they already have Little and Cribbs competing at those positions.

        Instead, get the best run plugger on DL available, when you know he is going in two picks, and get the speed burner in round 4 and take your chances. Worst case is you have a solid returner and can focus Cribbs on WR.

        Same with Schwartz. Could they have gotten a better LB, WR or DL with that pick, probably. But RT was a gaping hole for this team and this pick will likely fix that. And they picked up some LB’s that could compete for starting roles in the later rounds.

        Agreed that is a high risk proposition, but this team sucks, it isn’t going to get fixed overnight and you have to fill the holes.

        I think the only position I would criticize them on is CB/Safety. Dmitri Patterson isn’t going to get it done. They will have to move Brown to safety and our secondary is going to be exposed. They did little to upgrade themselves in the secondary in the draft and FA. I’m not a big fan of Ward in pass coverage. Given the D is going to be on the field quite a bit with a rookie at QB, that is where I see the weakness on this team.

        • rodofdisaster

          I like your line of thought on these. I think that the media generally has been harsher on the Browns than I have.

          Stated basically: If the first three picks of this draft end up as even decent NFL starters then this team is remarkably better. That doesn’t count for a successful draft for someone like TRich drafted #3 overall but when you add multiple starters that’s some measure of success.

          The receiver to me is the most enigmatic position on the whole team. Yes, the #1 prototype is a big guy who’s fast and dominant but WR (perhaps more than any other part of the team) requires a lot of complimentary pieces.

  • BIKI024

    Weeden’s interview with PD Sports Insider was pretty good, should be up loaded soon. thought the guys asked some good questions, including MKC, and Weeden gave some solid answers, including that he’s going to wear #3, so BW3 it is.. (due to pavlov’s theory and all, BW3, sounds a helluva lot better than RG3 to me)

    • https://twitter.com/jimkanicki jimkanicki

      mkc is an embarrassment.

      ‘talk about being smack dab in the eye of the storm should colt be here should seneca be here.’

      MY GOD.

      and her followup
      ‘talk about how important it is to have a veteran mentor..’

      like, what the hell? does she think he’s going to say:
      1. oh yeah, i saw colt’s film last year. brutal.
      2. right, i need ken dorsey. is he available.

      • BIKI024

        i don’t mind her, i didn’t say all her questions were pulitzer prize winning, but she asked questions that plenty of fans wanted to hear. not all fans have the wisdom and knowledge that you do my friend.

        she probably asked 10 questions, at least half were decent.. almost as decent as her hot pink shirt..

        • actovegin1armstrong

          Biki, Biki, Biki,
          I am wearing a hot pink shirt right now.
          All of the cool kids wear pink.

      • bupalos

        Klassy!

    • bupalos

      BW3. Bringing the hot sauce with that big right wing.

      I guess it works.

  • http://www.autismspeaks.org/ PML

    In case anyone needed more empirical proof to a very self-evident truth (slightly NSFW – more “what is wrong with you” than pervy):

    http://www.buzzfeed.com/peggy/53-reasons-why-asians-are-the-superior-race

    The second one for number 19 is still haunting my dreams.

  • Ramdu

    Long time reader, first time poster:

    1) I appreciate your wit (“More Weeden Readin'”)
    2) Off topic- I do not like the Cleveland Spiders alternative. When I was beekeeping this week I thought that The Cleveland Bees was a better name. What better mascot could you have than a honey bee? I could write a book about my thoughts on this so I’ll leave this simple. Maybe we could change the name/image by posing a more exciting/positive one rather than crapping on the old one and settling for something less offensive. Go Bees!
    3) I’m glad we have a QB that may be able to perform in Cleveland. I’m also happy that H&H is finally taking the o-line seriously. I hate watching bad run blocking and porous pass protection. We get a good o-line and we’re set.

    • bupalos

      As a fellow beekeeper of 3 proud hives (until I was taken out by Colony Collapse Disorder a few years ago), and someone who played on the Bee’s in sandlot, I second this motion. And Medina ought to represent.

      • actovegin1armstrong

        I can empathize Bupa,
        I had 11 very productive hives eating from my planted clover, blue bonnets and Willie Nelson’s wildflowers, (his ranch is on the other side of the river) but they are almost all dead now.
        I am still hoping for a comeback.

      • actovegin1armstrong

        There is a joke in there about Willie’s wildflower crops. However, I have never seen their respective flowers.

    • acto

      Ramdu,
      Are you from Medina?

      • Ramdu

        Nope Trumbull county- but I live in columbus now.

  • BIKI024

    Chris Perez does it again! he’s enfuego. Frownie i know you’re keepin score at home, his WHIP is down to 1.22 to go along with his league leading 9 saves..

  • http://www.autismspeaks.org/ PML

    This about sums all my experiences in Western PA

    http://jimromenesko.com/2012/05/04/do-what/

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