Real Letters from Tribe Fans

by Cleveland Frowns on May 24, 2012

This one came in a couple weeks ago in response to the Scene cover story on The Curse of Chief Wahoo:

Dear Peter:

I’m really struggling with this. Please help. I’ve been a Cleveland Indians fan for all of my life. I like this baseball team that Cleveland has.

After reading your article on Chief Wahoo, I’m not sure that I feel right supporting this team.

I know that those boys out there on the field don’t have much of a say in it, but I feel like I shouldn’t even go see the play with the organization condoning such a racist attitude.

I’ve removed the Wahoos from my home. I’m ashamed to say that I had let something like that into my home.

I was foolish enough to think that it wasn’t that bad or that maybe they had gotten the ok from some local tribe to use such a name and image.

If supporting the “Indians” is part of the problem, please let me know how I can be part of the solution. I would like to stand with anyone who is protesting at a game in the future.*

-AC, Cleveland

And here’s another letter that was sent to the folks at Uni Watch in response to their recent “re-name the Indians” series** that was passed along to us.

Dear [Uni Watch Folks],

Born and raised in Cleveland, I stopped rooting for the Cleveland baseball team around 15 years ago due to the offensiveness of the name and Chief Wahoo. I’ve since been waiting for the day the team would change its identity so that I could once again be a fan of my hometown team.

I enjoyed seeing the clever nominees in the Uni-Watch contest but, as great as these choices are, there is probably no chance of the Cleveland baseball organization adopting any of these names or anything along similar lines in the near future.  When I returned to Cleveland for a job from 2008-2011, I was struck by how many individuals who have devoted their lives to issues of social justice either see nothing wrong with, or turn a blind eye to, the name of the baseball team. Only the strongest owner, which the team does not have, would be able to stomach the initial public outcry and resistance that would come from changing the team’s name or Chief Wahoo. That is, unless the name change can be seen as a possible improvement, even by those clinging to the Indians and Chief Wahoo, in all his red-faced grinning glory.

But I may have come up with a solution. Change the team name to the Cleveland Americans. Is it boring and jingoist? Yes. But when it comes to ending this injustice, I think practicality significantly trumps creativity. The beauty of the Americans name is that it backs into a corner those most likely to object to changing Indians/Chief Wahoo. Are they going to choose patriotism or tradition/racism? Do they love America more than they hate political correctness? And, hell, if Chief Wahoo is so iconic and his tradition so important, keep him as the mascot of the Americans. Wouldn’t that be something? An “Indian” as the symbol of a team simply named the Americans.

Best,

PT, NYC

LOL.

In other news, here’s a report from 2009 at the Philly Inquirer on how leaders of the Penobscot Nation of which Louis Sockalexis was a member have repeatedly asked the Cleveland Indians to stop using Chief Wahoo as a logo. Indians spokesman Bob Dibiasio had no comment in response to the Penobscot leaders’ request, presumably because if these people could only understand “the historical significance as to how and why the Cleveland baseball team became the Indians,” they would see how Wahoo “acknowledge[s] and foster[s] the legacy of Sockalexis.”

Cleveland: You can stand for basic decency, social justice and human dignity here, or you can root for your local Major League baseball team, but you really can’t do both. To think of what being a Cleveland fan could be if it wasn’t for Larry Dolan and the rest of the Wahoo enablers of Cleveland’s power structure (which of course includes every one of the franchise’s corporate sponsors).

Alright, Tribe fever catch it. *If you want to stand with anti-Wahoo protesters like A.C. from Cleveland, get in touch with the folks at the Committee of 500 Years of Dignity and Resistance here. If you want to buy Cleveland Caucasians gear, get in touch with the folks at Shelf Life Clothing here.

**And we never got around to posting about the rest of the Uni Watch re-name/re-design results, so if you missed those, you’ll definitely want to check them out here, here, here, and here (and a good read from Uni Watch founder Paul Lukas on his position on Native American team names/imagery here).

  • Reggie

    And lets face it, Cleveland Spiders stuff would be super awesome.

  • bupalos

    >>Cleveland: You can stand for basic decency, social justice and human dignity here, or you can root for your local Major League baseball team, but you really can’t do both.>>

    Hold the phone there chief. I know you don’t mean it this way, but that comes off a bit more like “anyone who roots for the Cleveland baseball club doesn’t stand for decency etc,” than “Cleveland baseball would be much better if its name didn’t make its fans swallow a part of their conscience at the door.” The former is exactly the wrong button to push on this.

    I love the Cleveland Americans solution, less for the “boxing in your opponents with patriotism” than the connection (apologies to the Palin wing) to the realest of Americans. But it’s clever all around. I may just start calling them the Americans. Cleveland Americans in Progressive Field…someone get Peter B. Lewis on this.

    • p_forever

      i agree with bup here: the wahoo image is disgusting and awful, but it isn’t everything or even the most important thing about our baseball team. boycotting the team because of its name means allowing the name to co-opt everything this is good about our team, and what it does for this community. it’s the exact opposite of what we should be doing. we need to take back the team – not cede it to the racists. we should show up in droves wearing our cleveland americans/cleveland spiders/cleveland caucasians gear. screw dolan and everyone who thinks that somehow the team depends upon the name “indians,” and the wahoo logo, for its existence.

      • cyonx

        I was a bit stunned by Frowns position here (sounds like he’s done supporting the Indians). And I understand p_forever’s sentiment (and agree that the suggested demonstrations may have greater impact), but I’m having a hard time thinking of another situation where I could stomach giving my money to support an organization propagating awful and disgusting racist imagery. I’ve always hating that f-ing mascot and won’t buy anything with its image; but had never considered an outright boycott. It’s the right thing to do, I’m afraid.

        • bupalos

          I think it just reads wrong. I’m pretty sure boycott/stop rooting is not his position. In my mind, the best thing to do is for folks bothered by this to attend in force while making visible their disagreement. If all the folks who are bothered by the image disappear, I doubt that helps change things.

          • ClevelandFrowns

            Boycotting isn’t really the issue for me. I’ll go to an Indians game when I want to watch an MLB game and drink $8 beers. The real question is, why I should root for the one MLB team that asks its fans to check its conscience at the door like this? Indifference is one thing, but the next question is, why shouldn’t I want that team to lose? It’s hard to argue with the Curse of Wahoo as as good evidence as there is of some kind of benevolent metaphysical order. I LIKE the idea of a benevolent metaphysical order. Better than I could like any baseball team, for sure.

            The “importance of the team to the community” doesn’t strike me as a very good answer to these questions considering that basic decency, social justice and human dignity all have to be much more important to the community than a baseball team, too.

            How best to affect change is another issue, but
            “showing up in droves” to give money to the people who support this symbol seems like a sketchy solution as well. Much less sketchy than hitting them (and their sponsors) in the wallet.

          • GrandRapidsRustlers

            Interesting way to look at it.

            I think the only way to actually change it is to win.

            You hit the sponsors and everyone stays away we may change the name…of course who knows what Charlotte wants to call the team.

            We are on the same page here just in complete disagreement on how to best affect change. I think winning and people showing up increases the pressure to change.

          • bupalos

            >>>”showing up in droves” to give money to the people who support this symbol seems like a sketchy solution as well. Much less sketchy than hitting them (and their sponsors) in the wallet. >>>

            If even 1/10th of the customers right there in the stands are creating that kind of disruption for the brand, that’s going to change things a hell of a lot faster than trying to subtract that minority from the equation in the name of purity of conscience. Trying to hit Dolan by reducing the attendance of a tiny minority would be worse than nothing for a bunch of reasons, chief among them being their customer base will now be 100% pro-wahoo and change will appear that much more risky for them.

            Say you were passionately opposed to child labor in Losotho. As such, you’re probably part of a majority in terms of preference among those who are educated on the issue, but a tiny minority in terms of the strength of interest. Numbers-wise I’m not sure this is far from the case with Wahoo. Is the best way to effect change for you and your tiny minority to;

            A. Sit and wait for Old Navy and Walmart to stop sourcing child labor clothing, and thus “hit them in the pocketbook” with your tiny minority.

            B. Buy an old navy shirt, print a photo of malnourished Losothian children working looms at 5am on it that says “KEEP PRICES LOW. LITTLE FINGERS AND TOES ARE A DIME A DOZEN!” Then have a conversation with whoever asks about it.

            It’s a winning issue. Something good can actually be done here.

          • ClevelandFrowns

            I understand your larger point but I just don’t see why folks have to “show up in droves” to the ballpark, or even show up (or at least go into the ballpark) at all for this to be an effective strategy.

            No answers on the “why should I root for this team” question?

          • kjn

            I root for them because they’re my home town team and for all the reasons everyone seems to hate them – because they can’t spend, because they’re usually outmatched, because they have to be smarter and faster and luckier than their opposition, because baseball – like life – is an unbalanced playing field, and because there is nothing more Cleveland than fighting that good fight.

          • ClevelandFrowns

            Yeah, I guess maybe basic decency, social justice and human dignity is more important to me than the ‘Little Engine that Could’ stuff.

            Which goes to your point about ‘good fight,’ because it’s hard for me to think you’re winning that to lose the better/more important fight.

          • kjn

            You asked, I answered.

            As I stated elsewhere, I fully accept my complicity.

          • Cousin_of_Cohen

            Frownie, the Dolans are clearly taking the path of least resistance in keeping the status quo. However, I’ll give them credit for getting Wahoo off of the hats/batting helmets for around 50% of their games (that’s 50% more than 10 years ago). So, there is progress, it’s just too slow. I agree that Wahoo needs to go, and it’s so great that this discussion is gaining momentum.

            However, don’t you feel that Cleveland will lose its team if attendance dries up to the point where the Dolans’ wallets are hit hard enough? The team will change its name/logo for sure if that happens.

            I still wholeheartedly support the Tribe, though I won’t wear Wahoo anymore (mostly due to the great points you have pointed out). I think the progress you have made in creating this discussion in the past few months/years is exactly what we needed, and I think it will soon be enough for the Dolans to realize they have enough support to weather the negative attitudes they will get for ditching Wahoo….or at least I hope it will

          • ClevelandFrowns

            Cousin: Thanks. I hope you’re right. In the meantime though I still don’t know why I should root for the Indians over basic decency, social justice, human dignity and the best evidence there is of some kind of benevolent metaphysical order.

          • bupalos

            >>>I understand your larger point but I just don’t see why folks have to “show up in droves” to the ballpark, or even show up (or at least go into the ballpark) at all for this to be an effective strategy.>>>

            Because by going in to the ballpark, you clearly and unequivocally state that you are part of this thing that you want to change, that you actually care about it. If you do it from outside, you’re just some outsider that wants to ruin everyone’s fun.

            >>>No answers on the “why should I root for this team” question?>>>

            First and foremost because it’s an embodiment of Cleveland and something that makes the town more fun. Second, because like Cleveland in the latter 20th century, it’s always been an underdog. Of late it’s been an underdog that has done more with less, which is pretty close to the definition of virtue. Third, because it’s basically just a mistake of history that we got stuck with Wahoo. This team, organization, and town has never been much more or less racist than any other team, organization or town. Wahoo could have happened to anyone. There may be some organizations that would have been strong enough to free themselves of Wahoo by now, but not many.

            This is a curse, but it isn’t just a curse. It’s an opportunity.

          • ClevelandFrowns

            OK, I understand that a large scale education/awareness campaign would be better than a boycott, so who’s going to finance it?

            The more interesting question is about why we should root for a team that supports Wahoo. Again, I don’t know how the “its our town” “its fun” “little engine that could” stuff gets us around the basic decency, social justice, human dignity and best evidence there is of some kind of benevolent metaphysical order things. Do you really think it does?

          • bupalos

            >>>Again, I don’t know how the “its our town” “its fun” “little engine that could” stuff gets us around the basic decency, social justice, human dignity and best evidence there is of some kind of benevolent metaphysical order things. Do you really think it does?>>>

            I don’t think you need to get around it. I like to believe in a benevolent metaphysical order of things as much as the next guy (provided the next guy isn’t you perhaps) but it’s not neccessarily a SIMPLE order. Bill Veeck pushes the color barrier in the AL. Bill Veeck performs in blackface. Seems odd, but you put in in context of the times and you can see how Larry Doby considered Veeck a great man. A team that had a historic role in helping push integration and civil rights hangs on to an embarrassing cartoon. Possibly for some of the same reasons.

            Things are complicated. Change is hard. Everything and everyone has flaws. Trite but true.

            Go Cleveland!

          • ClevelandFrowns

            UGH. Now you’re defending the team for clinging to Wahoo, and referring to an actual great man in your defense. I think this proves my point. It’s not the 40s anymore, Bup.

          • bupalos

            >>>UGH. Now you’re defending the team for clinging to Wahoo,>>>

            I’m not defending them for than particular act, no way. You asked why root for the Indians, why shouldn’t the logo disqualify them from your consideration. I’m saying because the overall legacy is conflicted and flawed, just like everyone and everything. The current suits just do what every other big business is doing right here and right now in 2012, which is act to protect their bottom line. I can’t say Bill Veeck didn’t have something of that motive in mind as well, he just saw it a different way than other owners and turned out to be right in every way.

            The best way to get the suits to remove the stain from OUR team is not to quit caring about the team. A lot of us could hardly do that even if we wanted to. Far better to show them that a lot of people who care about the city and the team –and prove with their presence that they want to be a part of both– don’t like what they currently have to swallow along with it.

          • ClevelandFrowns

            “Far better to show them that a lot of people who care about the city and the team –and prove with their presence that they want to be a part of both– don’t like what they currently have to swallow along with it.”
            SERIOUSLY, BUP, now I know I’m right, because I know that the best way to let someone know what I don’t like swallowing is to stop swallowing it. QED. Go White Sox.

          • bupalos

            >>>>because I know that the best way to let someone know what I don’t like swallowing is to stop swallowing it.>>>>

            Soylent Wahoo is people. It’s people! What you’re suggesting is that Charlton Heston should have just quietly said he was not hungry anymore and walked away and hoped the market sent his message for him.

            Whether you go to games or root for the Cleveland Baseball Club or not, you’re going to keep consuming Wahoo whether you like it or not because it’s continually stamped all over this fair city. “Go White Sox” is quite emphatically not the way to improve the situation.

          • actovegin1armstrong

            Just curious Frownie….
            Do you really believe this, or is this some of your hyperbolic humor?

            ” and the best evidence there is of some kind of benevolent metaphysical order.”

        • kjn

          This is pretty much my stance: avoid buying anything that isn’t a ticket to a game.

          Thing is, I also eat at, shop at, and generally support a variety of companies that back a multitude of social views that I don’t support. If you have any convictions one way or the other about gay rights, women’s health, abortion, or any other real world issue, I’m guessing you’ve given your dollars to a company that actively supports the other side.

          That said, I’m not trying to rationalize it away. I’m willing to own it- yeah, I’m tacitly supporting racism and actively supporting a racist organization. But Indians baseball is one of the very few small things (not family or friends) that bring joy into my life so I’m willing to be selfish and take on that bad karma. In penance, I try to actively do good in other, more material ways.

          • mo_by_dick

            Chik Fil A brah … Chik Fil A

          • kjn

            Chik Fil A- where delcious and intolerant meet

          • kjn

            so i’m watching the tribe game on mlb’s game center and the first commercial is for chik fil a…

            i’m a racist AND a homophobe

          • cyonx

            “If you have any convictions one way or the other about gay rights, women’s health, abortion, or any other real world issue, I’m guessing you’ve given your dollars to a company that actively supports the other side.”

            I do have strong convictions about all of those things you mention. And while I don’t do research before every dollar leaves my wallet; when I am aware of a company’s active support for a position that I find reprehensible, I find another place to spend my money.

            This is much harder though, as there is no real alternative.

          • kjn

            I’m the same way.

            Just trying to point out that if you aren’t extremely vigilant then you’re dollars are probably be funnelded to support more tangible things (i.e. politicians, propositions, institutions, etc.) that you may disagree with.

            Curse of modern existence….

        • p_forever

          as with most things, my position on how to handle the racist logo stems from an underlying belief that we are all radically interconnected, and that like it or not, we’re in this community together and the most rational response to our being in it together is to be as supportive of one another (and as least awful to one another) as possible. clearly having a racist logo violates the rule of non-awfulness. but so would boycotting the team, and the community that built the team and continues to support the team. (i mean – it’s not as if the people in the stands are showing up to support wahoo, or that the players on the field are playing to glorify wahoo – they are there to support their team). the team – like all of our teams – is a really important community builder, and a point of common history, and an asset to our community in a lot of ways. it doesn’t cease to be that sort of asset because of its association with wahoo. that association is a perversion – a cancer that needs to be removed. but the team itself is not the problem, therefore boycotting it isn’t the answer.

          it’s also just true – and i think you acknowledge this too – that change from within is more powerful and efficacious than change from without (which feels like outsiders telling you what to do, which really just makes people dig in their heels even harder, even about things to which they otherwise wouldn’t cling so hard).

          as for examples of giving support to non-pure organizations: because no one is perfect/pure, it follows that for sure none of the communities in which imperfect people inhere, and none of the organizations which they build, are perfect or pure either. the best we can do is make them as perfect as we can.*

          (*yes sure some are so awful that opting out is the best option – i just don’t think we’re there yet with this baseball team.)

          • kjn

            Very well said.

            I think this “yes sure some are so awful that opting out is the best option – i just don’t think we’re there yet with this baseball team” is important too.

            Intent is very important in this situation. I don’t believe any (or at least most) Wahoo supporters do so out of malice or anger. They don’t wear the gear out of a desire to upset or demean a people. For the brass, it’s cowardice steeped in greed more than anything, imo. Which, while not admirable in the least, is still different from straight up intolerance.

          • ClevelandFrowns

            “I think this ‘yes sure some are so awful that opting out is the best option – i just don’t think we’re there yet with this baseball team’ is important too.”

            I think it sounds pretty convenient for folks who don’t want to sacrifice the fun of rooting for their hometown MLB team.

          • kjn

            Which, as I stated earlier, I fully accept.

            Yes, I refuse to sacrifice my love of the Indians. It is the last connection I have to the city I was born in and lived in for thirty odd years. If that price is being complicit in this racism, I’m willing to pay that karmic price.

      • bupalos

        perfect.

    • mo_by_dick

      Like AC says, “I like this baseball team that Cleveland has.”

  • mo_by_dick

    My father was in town recently and read your Scene article while waiting for me at my place. He was never really an Indians fan — was born in the Philippines, lived in Toledo and Philadelphia, but never Cleveland, and now resides in Germany. He says that living abroad has made him more proud to be American than ever, and typically he holds on to things that he sees as ingrained in the culture; he might even be someone who would complain about being overly “politically correct,” although we both agreed that we hate that term.

    Anyways, he remarked how easily he was convinced by your article, and how shocked he was that he had never really thought about it before, despite being exposed to that logo for much of his life. He wondered aloud if Clevelanders would ever feel a scaled version of the guilt that he sees in today’s Germans regarding their history of intolerance once wahoo is officially gone, but evident in remanants and vestiges.

  • ramdu

    How about the Cleveland Ohioans

    • kjn

      Or Ohio Clevelanders?

      regional appeal

      • CleveLandThatILove

        I like that!

    • Beeej

      The Cleveland North Akronites, then we could appeal to LeBron too!!!

      • ClevelandFrowns

        THE NORTH AKRON CHOSEN ONES.

        • Beeej

          LQTM (laugh quietly to myself) I’ll give you a tongue in cheek “like” for that one. Very funny.

          • bupalos

            Seconded.

  • http://twitter.com/musicman06 Chris Music

    After last night’s comeback win, the Tribe is 3-3 this year when I sport the Caucasians shirt and 15-9 overall since picking up the shirt at the 2011 Draft Day festivities at Map Room. More and more I feel like it’s my civic duty to sport the shirt at the park, given it’s 62.5% success rate in the MLB standings…

    • bupalos

      You are significantly outperforming Chris Perez!

      • BIKI024

        51 out of 56, 15 out of last 15, there isn’t a lampost, i mean closer in the league outperforming Chris Perez!

        • kjn

          You should let people wallow in their misconceptions and just continue to fleece them on bar bets.

          • BIKI024

            you’re right.. it’s one thing for maybe the national public to be against him, but our own “fans”??

          • mo_by_dick

            To be fair, I once saw Frowns lose a bar bet about the number of chickens in the United States.

          • kjn

            The Legend of Mariano Rivera ruined it for all closers everywhere forever.

  • rodofdisaster

    I didn’t grow up rooting for the Indians although my wife does like them from her time in Cleveland. I have to admit Frownie that I never had thought much about the logo until I read this article. I don’t suppose that makes me any less complicit in the racism.

    Yes, a caricature is different than an accurate depiction. I suppose that the thing I struggle with more is not whether a caricature (“Indian Sambo”) is wrong; it certainly is. It’s whether or not using the term “Indian” as a team name is as sensitive. In other words, if the logo was not as polarizing would we still feel the same? I imagine the answer is “yes” to someone.

    It’s on my mind lately as my son is going to high school in the fall and his school’s sports teams are known as the “Indians”. The logo is more like the Blackhawks’ logo but it’s an Indian nonetheless. For that matter the other high schools in our town are the “Chieftains” and the “Warriors” both of whom have some Indian imagery in their logo (A tomahawk and another profile view of an Indian in a headress)

    I’ve always been struck by our distinctly New World need to name our sports teams. In other parts of the world, the nicknames are usually unofficial and the team name is simply the club (e.g., Manchester United, Liverpool FC) name. I guess they just don’t want to piss anyone off.

    Boycotting a team on social grounds has merit in my book although given the way that sports plays a role in our lives, it’s easier said than done. The players certainly don’t have any say in the logo but societal pressure has to come from somewhere. There had to be a Jackie Robinson to cross the color-barrier and this cause will need its own hero as well.

    • kjn

      I always liked the thought of dropping the nickname and just being Cleveland. Too cool for the rest of American sports…

      • Petefranklin

        Screw the spiders, just being Cleveland would rule!

    • manc

      The nicknames soccer clubs usually developed organically from some aspect of the teams fan culture. ManU–Red Devils, Norwich City–the Canaries (which is pretty awesome), Everton–the Toffees, ManCity–Sky Blues, Fulham–the Cottagers. A lot of times its a riff on the teams colors or stadium.

  • GrandRapidsRustlers

    Two things here:

    1. It’s not the greatest of designs but I wear it and it does bring up questions…would love to see some of the Uni Watch designs incorporated into something better.

    http://www.zazzle.com/cleveland_spiders_tshirt-235248837530115577

    2. The idea that we would not support the team due to the logo is absurd. This is our best chance to actually create change and we do it by supporting the team the best we can and praying that they make a playoff/world series run. The issue will never come to the forefront if we finish 78-84. No one cares. Make a deep playoff run and it increases awareness and maybe allows us to change this.

    I am amazed at how we have a baseball team that manages to operate in a system that is grossly unfair and yet finds a way to compete…and a football team that operates in a system that practically guarantees that you have a chance and manages to screw it up.

    My only real fault with Dolan is the fact that he does not see the dollar signs that are generated by a name and logo change. I understand tradition and I understand fear…it is time to close this chapter and move on. If Dolan actually thinks that there are people who will stop going to an MLB game because Chief Wahoo is gone I fear for all of us.

    Once again…every boy under the age of 10 in America buys a Spiders hat tomorrow. This is not complicated. File the paperwork with the AL Dolan.

    • BIKI024

      Spiders? I thought you were in the Rustlers camp??

      • GrandRapidsRustlers

        Either one…but Spiders sells far more gear.

    • ClevelandFrowns

      “The idea that we would not support the team due to the logo is absurd.”

      Really? Why? See my response in bup, cyonx, p thread above.

    • NeedsFoodBadly

      How does winning the playoffs change the logo? I don’t see the connection.

      I have memories of the Indians winning the pennant, a few protesters getting mocked next opening day, and things rolling along like normal.

      Is your argument that people aren’t aware that the Indians/Chief Wahoo exists? Because there aren’t that many teams in MLB.

      • GrandRapidsRustlers

        My argument is more that ignoring the team and boycotting it is letting the racists win. I believe there are far more people than we know who would like to see it changed…

        10,000 people showing up in Caucasian or Spiders gear for a playoff game gets the morons at ESPN talking.

        I also do not believe that long term NE Ohio can support 3 teams. This is obviously a separate issue for another time but the best way to see Chief Wahoo is vanish is for him to show up in Charlotte or Vegas.

        The other side of this is that we may just have to realize that people don’t care. I have seen the comments that Frowns gets on this and it makes you scratch your head…

        Blackface is bad. Redface is good for a logo of a pro team? I mean there are only 122 of them.

        • bupalos

          Dead on GRR.

        • rodofdisaster

          I don’t disagree with anything here but your first sentence is a non sequitur unless you care to elaborate.

          Don’t confuse social protest with terrorism. Not taking airplanes lets the terrorists win. Not going to ballgames affects racists how?

          • GrandRapidsRustlers

            Correct. I should have said it is letting Tsl Ink win. The vast majority of fans and even the ones who wear Chief Wahoo are not racist. Change takes time and I think that Dolan is slowly eliminating the Chief.

            Lost in all of this is that we have a solid baseball team here and I will continue to bang the drum that Detroit is not a good baseball team. Verlander is amazing though…

          • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_EFUG2PACUMJICJHNHPVZ2WRWGM Tsl Ink

            listen to the self important, narccistic dick…he thinks he knows what he’s talking about but at least he writes in complete sentences dot dot dot

  • CleveLandThatILove

    Windians. We should be the Cleveland Windians.

    • BIKI024

      how bout the Cleveland Choos???? he’s on FIRE

      • CleveLandThatILove

        He’s making Acta look like a genius. I heard the fireworks – hopped onto MLB.com and saw the video.

        Let’s all do the Bupette chant!

        • bupalos

          As has been previously negotiated with relevant copyright owners, anyone wishing to perform the “Mr. Who, Mr. Choo™” chant in public can license it for the price of 2 dora stickers. Failure to compensate said copyright owners will result in offenders being prosecuted in a court of Kangaroos and full year listing on the national Mr. potty-pickles-pants registry.

          • CleveLandThatILove

            How much to make it my ring tone?

          • bupalos

            I’ll run that by my clients. I’m sure can work something out here.

      • bupalos

        Don’t make me do the cheer Biki. Don’t you make me do that.

        • BIKI024

          u can do it: “chris per-ez! Chris Per-ez! CHRIS PER-EZ!”

      • actovegin1armstrong

        “how bout the Cleveland Choos????”

        Biki, that is completely crazy.
        They would most assuredly be moved to Chattanooga and we would lose our MLB team.

  • technivore

    LOVE LOVE LOVE the “Cleveland Americans” idea. I could not possibly love that idea any more.

    • bupalos

      I know. Do people not understand how good this is because the guy undersold it with the “nationalism” thing?

      People! Cleveland…Melting Pot…Native Americans….Polish Americans…African Americans…Italian Americans…Greek Americans…AMERICANS. Turns things on their head in the best possible way.

      • PTNYC

        I’m the emailer who suggested Americans. I probably shouldn’t have used the term jingoist in my email. My point was that a patriotic name wouldn’t be my first choice in a vacuum because I generally prefer not trying to appeal to people’s love of country for the purpose of commercial gain. But I’m okay with it if it’s a compromise to right a wrong. And, in this context, the name Americans seeks to be more than exploitative because it’s the unifying theme for us Clevelanders of all different ethnic origins. Bupalos, I think your 2nd paragraph perfectly encapsulates my thinking.

        For a name change to be palatable to the many resisters, it would have to be viewed as an upgrade of over 100 years of tradition. Tradition is not simply the team’s name. It’s the way the name conjures up memories of childhood, of time spent with family and friends, etc. For most Cleveland baseball fans right now it’s clear that social justice does not trump tradition. However, patriotism may trump tradition, particularly if it can also be linked to our proud ethnic heritage as a city. That’s why I think the name Americans could be viewed by resisters as an upgrade. Because it appeals to Cleveland’s proud ethnic history AND appeals to their patriotism.

        • ClevelandFrowns

          Thanks for stopping by, and for the clarification.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_EFUG2PACUMJICJHNHPVZ2WRWGM Tsl Ink

    what a bunch of fucking bullshit…everybody is so goddamn offended by any and everything ppl have to tippytoe for fear someone, somewhere will whine and bitch about a remark or logo or whatever…if you don’t assign any value to it then fuck it…who cares…i’ve been called a wap before and i could give two shits about it…litghten up bitches…

    • ClevelandFrowns

      LOL. Just looked at this “person”‘s Yahoo profile. He just left the comment at a story on “Egypt’s Christians vote to keep out Islamists”:

      “smart ppl … any time you can crush islam is a good day for the world … fk muslims.”

      He can be found at another story arguing that gays are not a “minority.”

      We’ll leave this one up.

      Lighten up bitches…

      • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_EFUG2PACUMJICJHNHPVZ2WRWGM Tsl Ink

        someone ‘liked’ it PETER….bunch of pussy pacifist…i suppose we should all embrace islam…or perhaps it’s misunderstood? and gee i thought a minority was oh say an african american or hispanic perhaps…not some homo..gee..my bad

        • Beeej

          http://www.cracked.com/article_18911_5-ridiculous-things-you-probably-believe-about-islam.html?wa_user1=5&wa_user2=Weird+World&wa_user3=article&wa_user4=recommended

          Please look up the definition of “minority.” Then compare/contrast the difference between “dumb” and “ignorant.” If you have any energy left pick up a copy of Strunk and White’s, “The Elements of Style.” It should make things easier for you English teacher next year. Don’t worry, middle school can be a bit intimidating at first, but you’ll get through it I promise.

        • NeedsFoodBadly

          minorities aren’t just racial groups, dogg. And yeah, Islam is pretty misunderstood. Also, it’s okay to end a sentence with just one period and a space. It won’t hurt. I promise.

          • Beeej

            Check out the link in my above post. It is really interesting re: Islam.

          • NeedsFoodBadly

            I find it very eerie that we both signed off with “I promise.”

        • rodofdisaster

          Ignorant. Hateful. Incapable of proper sentence structure.

          smh

      • dubbythe1

        Micro vs Macro in the realm of humanity. Sadly, there are many out there like this, or worse.

    • http://twitter.com/cpmack Chris M

      …

    • bupalos

      Thank you Mr. Trivisano. Now please go back to explaining how African American women are unattractive.

      • actovegin1armstrong

        Bravo again Bupa,
        I had an idiot like this chump go on and on about illegal for-nors at a party. He said some unimaginably hateful and hurtful things.
        My father says he was born in the USA and that he is a legal US citizen, but despite his decorated performance in the last great war, WWII, I certainly doubt that he entered this country legally.
        And I know that some of my other esteemed relatives certainly did not enter this country legally, they were running to avoid tyranny and poverty.
        I was twenty-two when this clown started ranting to the wrong guy, not at all timid and I was reluctant to let some drunk talk about my dad.
        Guess what happened?

        I am certain that the same thing would happen to our current bigot if he was not hiding in his Mom’s basement with his computer and the bravery of anonymity.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_EFUG2PACUMJICJHNHPVZ2WRWGM Tsl Ink

    why are ppl so damn sensitive about words or pictures? strap on a set

  • BIKI024

    CLOWNIES over 5.5 wins, even money. not bad, not bad at all.

    • NeedsFoodBadly

      do you use a bookie or make your bets online?

      do people still use bookies? It seems so delightfully Scorcese-ish.

      • BIKI024

        bookie, but i believe they prefer to be called “agents”, and all bets are placed online, so it’s not nearly as Scorcese-ish as in the old days. typically you work out a credit line with the guy and set a number when to collect/pay up.

      • actovegin1armstrong

        My brother “made book” at 3 or 4 bars in and around Cleveland for about 10 years. (His only job.)
        Almost all of his business was football.
        He would stay with the Vegas line for the most part, but he would make odds variances on things that he really felt he had his own line on, it substantially increased his popularity.
        He said recently that “the *^*)&%^ internet ruined any chance at continuing that profession.

    • Believelander

      I’d actually bet a dime on them to win 6 games if I had a dime to spare.

      • Petefranklin

        Did Shurmer get suspended too?

        • Believelander

          No, but I have a long litany of reasons why I feel the Brownies are going to win 6 or 7 games this season.

          • Petefranklin

            Very curious of your reasoning. I’m sure a lot have to do with a better offense, but those gains will be given back on defense IMO. Hope I’m wrong.

    • Petefranklin

      You could have gotten over 5-115 @ betonline.com, much better bet, maybe you still have room for more.BTW the season win lines are not as sharp as the “all games this season” lines which have the Clowns winning all of no games this year.Clownies under 6 wins @ even $$$ not too bad either,thanks.

  • http://www.redright88.com/ TitusPullo94

    Recently I had the opportunity to interview Ian Cheney (hopefully I didn’t tell this already in a separate Wahoo post), co-creator of King Corn and other documentaries about sustainability, etc.

    I asked him how, with so many things going on, can one person make a difference. He said as consumers we should “pick something small that you consume, eat or use, figure out where it came from and its story, and then decide if you are OK with that story on some level.”

    I think that sums up the position Frowns has on the Chief Wahoo issue, as well as what some other people have said in regards to other businesses (I don’t patronize Chick-Fil-A, Wal-Mart, work very hard to avoid chain restaurants, etc.).

    It comes down to each person making an individual choice and where you want to devote your energies and resources. You can make a difference by the choices you make, but I’m not sure you can compel or in some way get other people to follow along.

    But that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t try, of course.

    Not sure if this contributed anything to the discussion, but wanted to put it out there as food for thought.

    • ClevelandFrowns

      Thanks.

    • actovegin1armstrong

      Bravo TP,
      Chick-Fil-A and Wal-Mart are evil incarnate.

  • CleveLandThatILove

    Frowns, have you considered appealing to the Indians players themselves on this? No doubt they are vaguely aware that there is a small protest on opening day, but like the rest of us they probably have no idea that Chief Wahoo is anything but a cute cartoon. I mean, let’s face it, the majority of MLB players are minorities themselves.

    Suppose even just a few of them approached management and expressed their discomfort sporting Chief on their uniform, and then shared it with the press. All very respectfully, of course. Just the Wahoo, not the name. Baby steps. Who better to influence the fan base than the players?

    Thanks to Twitter, we have access to all the players these days, so maybe a coordinated effort could get this moving.

    • Believelander

      I agree, I’d really rather not change the team name, but Wahoo, despite being a symbol many of us attach to some wonderful memories, certainly is a symbol we could do without. And raising awareness of the situation amongst Clevelanders as well as members of the team, whether players or managerial staff, can only help move things in a positive direction.

      • CleveLandThatILove

        Unlike the rest of us, these players are not able to opt out of wearing the thing, but you’d think the higher-ups would pay attention to something that has no effect on the actual game if it mattered to their bread and butter.

    • actovegin1armstrong

      CLTIL,
      That is a terrific idea getting players, especially minority players involved it could have a great effect.

      I wonder how much the move to a more respectable mascot was pushed along back in 1994 when Manny Ramirez wrote that beautifully worded, very poignant and thought provoking letter to the Plain Dealer about how the players felt denigrated and embarrassed by wearing their “Red Sambo” uniforms.

      I do not remember it exactly but Manny’s brilliant quote about the beauty and fun of the game of baseball being sullied by the ignominious black cloud of racism evoked by Chief Wahoo really moved me.

      • Petefranklin

        I guess his thoughts didn’t keep him from signing with the most racist team in baseball.

      • CleveLandThatILove

        I don’t remember that, but it would be interesting to read it. I was deep into mommying (hi, p_4) at that time, so maybe that’s how I missed it.

        But, yes- if even 1 or 2 players got inspired, they could certainly talk it up with their teammates. This is a very tight and cohesive group of guys from all accounts.

        • acto

          Hi CLTIL,
          My most humble apologies….
          Your thoughtful sincerity has made me feel like a chump.
          I was trying to be funny and as usual I was amazingly unsuccessful.
          Manny never wrote that thought provoking letter to the editor.

          Could Manny write a thought provoking letter to the editor?

  • http://www.autismspeaks.org/ PML

    If even one person was affected by your article and caused them to re-think their position on Wahoo it was worth the effort.

    Also, if anyone needs a feel-good moment today, check out this video (read the description first). I bawled like a yinzer in speech therapy.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=gKXkbs55KXU

    The link to the artist’s page is also a great read. Music therapy is a beautiful thing – I know from experience.

    • CleveLandThatILove

      Wow, for whatever reason, this made me think of being really cold and trying to get as close to a source of warmth as you can because it just feels so wonderful.

  • Jco721

    A USA Today article a few years ago said its the loud minority (<10%) of Native Americans who are offended by Wahoo. If anything, they're more offended by the Washington Redskins mascot.

    I'm Irish American and have no problem with the name Fighting Irish or the funny looking leprechaun.

  • thebearchoo

    Frownie – I usually love the stuff you put out, and I definitely see the whole point behind this and for the most part, agree with it. Maybe this has been mentioned (haven’t gone through and read all the comments), but I do get the sense that the organization is slowly working on phasing out the Chief. Look at the “C” and script I hat brought in, etc…I really am all about rights and am well aware of how we’ve raped and pillaged Native Americans for years and proceeded to glorify the culture almost driven to extinction (actually took a whole college course on it, which I believe qualifies me as an expert :) . It really pisses me off in general.

    Would you be content with the phasing out of Chief Wahoo on its own? I wouldn’t see a problem with it. Certainly dignity needs its place, but I think a wholesale rejection of an intergral part of our city over one caricature would be excessive. I’m pretty confident that Wahoo will be dead inside 20 years, but if not, I’m still going to be a dieahard fan and not consider myself a bad person for doing so. Like I said, I love your stuff for the most part and will continue to read, but I do think there’s a holier than thou tone to this whole debate that rubs some people the wrong way.

    Go Tribe

    • Bryan

      I agree with bearchoo. I think Wahoo is clearly offensive, and I would like to see it removed. But to argue that those who root for the Indians are somehow in tension with “basic decency, social justice and human dignity” is insane. I mean, let’s get a hold of ourselves here.

      In general, I think we tend to romanticize (particularly white people) the idea that being politically correct in our speech, or vigilant against any term or imagery that can be seen as offensive, somehow makes us morally superior. The fact is that “offensiveness” is quite elusive, arbitrary and subjective.

      For example, I was recently talking to a large group of friends about the term African-American vs. Black. There was a general agreement (across a wide spectrum of races – white, asian, indian, black) that African American now sounds more offensive than Black because its usage implies that the user is trying to “make up” for something, or sound more “open.” This makes the term offensive. The most offensive use, it was agreed, was by white people who called Black people Black in most settings and then use African-American only when other Black people around. Whether or not you agree with the discussion, it highlights how important context and intent is when evaluating the offensiveness of a word or image. To simply condemn any image or word that fits into a set of “off-limits” conditions as “offensive” is as closed minded as using hateful language to further damage and infringe on a group of long-suffering people.

      My wife is Indian and we have many conversations about political correctness, race, etc. Her view is that language/imagery in and of itself is all meaningless. She is only offended by language when she can tell that someone actually dislikes her, or is using language to judge/demean her because she is a different color/race. Again, intent and context matter.

      I think the intent/context of Chief Wahoo and the Cleveland Indians means many different things to many different people. If it was something that was clearly universally offensive (like being against gay marriage is quickly becoming), then it would be retired and then name would be changed. The fact that it is not suggests that the offensive nature of it is not commonly held, or even understood. In other words, to invoke a moral imperative over the subject is simply not justified.

      Personally, I think removing Wahoo is easy enough, would cause me no heartache, and mean a lot to some people, so I am all for it. But the notion that this is a morally important matter, and that everyone has a duty to hold the same view of condemnation about it, I disagree with.

      • ClevelandFrowns

        Did you even read the Scene Curse of Wahoo story? It really is a black and white issue. Wahoo is an objectively dehumanizing caricature regardless of what it means to some people, and only exists because of the political powerlessness of the people whom it caricaturizes. An injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere, by definition a “morally important matter.”

        • Bryan

          I did read the article. And appreciated it very much.

          The point I was trying to make (via my African-American/Black example) is the history of a symbol/term is sometimes over-interpreted relative to the meaning into which it has evolved presently. There are many examples of words or images that were once offensive to a group of people but later became inoffensive (or even signs of pride). I certainly don’t think Wahoo is a sign of pride for anyone, but I do think that, while it has an objectively offensive history, its current meaning is much more elusive.

          Think about all of the great literature from the 19th century that uses offensive language when referring to minorities. Huck Finn is probably the most prominent example for its repeated use of the n-word. Clearly that language was born out of ignorance, and represents a period in history that we should not be proud of, however it is less clear what to make of the word today. Should Huck Finn be edited to remove the word? Should the book be banned? Should Mark Twain be reevaluated a racist?

          These are not simple questions to answer.

          • ClevelandFrowns

            Huck Finn was an accurate portrayal of a certain time period in America. There’s no comparison here.

          • bupalos

            Charles Dickens would be a better example.

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