Why doesn’t Larry Doby get a statue if Jim Thome gets one?

by Cleveland Frowns on July 13, 2012

Thanks to Bill Livingston for raising an excellent question. For all the glory that’s rightfully bestowed on Jackie Robinson, baseball’s color barrier wasn’t something that was broken in an instant. Doby entered the Major Leagues just six weeks after Robinson, and by all accounts had a much tougher road. Robinson is recognized in every Major League ballpark, with his number 42 permanently retired throughout the league. But the Indians are putting Jim Thome ahead of Doby in the statue line in Cleveland, because Thome hit a bunch of home runs here before caving to union pressure to take a few more bucks to go play the rest of his prime years in Philly and Chicago. (NOTE: Doby hit a bunch of home runs, too, in an era when it was much harder to hit them, and he also helped the Tribe win a World Series in 1948.)

Maybe this is something that could be reconsidered.

Give them all statues. Thome shouldn’t get one before Lou Boudreau, either. They seem to manage this just fine in Detroit.

(image via @byRiverBurns)

In other news, the quote of the day is a tie, between Peter B. Lewis about the $150 million Uptown development in University Circle:

“It’s the first time in a long time I’ve been impressed by Cleveland. I’m impressed by the achievement and accomplishment, I’m impressed all around.”

#EastSide

And Marla Ridenour, writing earlier this week in the Akron Beacon Journal:

“I imagine the No. 32 ranking [by NBC's Pro Football Talk] did not go unnoticed by a Browns public relations staff that makes calls on the wording in local blog posts.”

And here’s Satchel Paige’s Six Rules for Staying Young at Buzzfeed (via Vince G on twitter), which is good timing with the Taste of Tremont happening this Sunday. Here’s a look at what you missed at the annual food fest last year if you missed it.

If you’re there on Sunday, hit us up on the twitter and maybe we can meet up for lemonades or a rap sesh with the leader of the Tenable Staff or whatever. Otherwise, have a decent weekend and treat your weekend open thread lovingly and wisely as always.

ClevelandFrowns

So this question came up yesterday, but what makes Josh Gordon that much different from Carlton Mitchell coming out of college? Same size, but Mitchell came out a bit faster, and stronger (16 reps of 225 compared to Gordon’s 13); Similar stats, except Mitchell didn’t have guys like RG3 and Kendall Wright on his offense, and played in the Big East where offense is generally much harder to come by than it is in the Big 12.

Is it all on the tape? In the rare occasions that Mitchell has gotten on the field, he always looks to me like he’s tiptoeing, afraid to be out there. Anyway, it’s interesting that we’re so excited about one guy and not the other (who’s got two full seasons in the league under his belt).
- http://www.redright88.com/ TitusPullo94
  
  Here’s one person’s opinion on Gordon vs. Mitchell: http://mattwaldmanrsp.com/2012/07/13/thoughts-on-josh-gordon-to-cleveland/
  
  (h/t to @RyInCBus)
  - ClevelandFrowns
    
    Good read. Thanks.
    - Robby
      
      Is this article a joke? What an outrageous display of racism against Thome! You should be ashamed of yourself!
      
      Thome is the greatest HR hitter of his generation – he’s in the top 5 all time in HRs per AB and you write an article trying to put him down because he’s not black!?? WTH are you smoking? What worthless filth this is!
  - humboldt
    
    Thanks for sharing. Love it when sports chatter is evidence-based.
    
    The sentence that gets me most excited:
    
    “If Little gives as much effort as a run blocker as Gordon has shown, they’ll be a dangerous duo that will help Trent Richardson break long runs.”
    
    Solid O-line, talented RB, potential vertical passing QB, and now, potentially, two big strong downfield blockers are great complementary pieces Heckert has woven together.
- Hopwin
  
  Here is another question to ponder; how have Big 12 WRs fared in the NFL in the past decade?
  
  A: http://sturminator.blogspot.com/2012/02/big-12-wr.html
  - ClevelandFrowns
    
    Good read. Thanks.
- bupalos
  
  I still have some hopes for Mitchell, but his forte was never going to be catch and run. He just doesn’t seem to have that. He seems to need to run track style to get up to speed, and he’s almost clumsy making cuts or moves. Still not that bad to have a guy that size that can run off the defense. And with more guys that can do what he can’t on the field with him, he might be better. I’m afraid he might be on the chopping block though.
- https://twitter.com/jimkanicki jimkanicki
  
  10″ hands.
  .
  .
  .
  .
  no really. check hakim nicks — 10-1/2″. there’s something to it regardless of how creepy the observation makes me/you/us feel.
rgrunds

Because Jim Thome represents the White, Anglo- German presence of the midwest farmlands.

Besides, being the second person to integrate the Big Leagues is like being the second person to invent the telephone or atom bomb.

Do I have to explain EVERYthing to you?
- http://twitter.com/byRiverBurns River Burns
  
  The Buzz Aldrin Syndrome
  - Ess Eh
    
    shouldn’t have had that sip of tang
  - rgrunds
    
    That is SO apt.
    
    Congratulations.
  - nj0
    
    Because nobody ever honored Buzz Aldrin
    - Ronnie
      
      Besides having his uniform number retired and a street named after him, Larry Doby has never been honored by the Indians. Not once.
- Carl
  
  rgrunds,
  
  Regarding your “second person” point, you need to think outside of a 21st century context.
  
  Larry Doby was the first person to integrate the American League, at a time when the American and National league were truly two separate entities, rather than merely two glorified conferences as they are today, and most fans forget, or choose not to recognize that they were two completely different leagues under the umbrella of Major League Baseball.
  
  Moreover, integration in the AL meant something at the time. Despite the St. Louis Browns integrating like two weeks later…2 of the 8 AL teams (Boston, Detriot) didn’t have a black player until 1958, and 1959, whereas the entire NL was integrated by ’54 with the unremarkable exception of historically racist Philadelphia.
  
  Being the first black player in the American League actually means something in context and shouldn’t be relegated as just the second black player in the major leagues.
  - rgrunds
    
    Larry Doby deserves lots of credit. I just tend to be ironic and irreverent. The world is tough and disregards second place. I’m sure it was terrible for him and I extend my compassion to him.
    
    By the way, bet you don’t know who the first negro was with Boston.
    - http://twitter.com/byRiverBurns River Burns
      
      Pumpsie Green
      
      I had a rather shameful period of disdain towards Boston after the 2007 ALCS. So, I found one of their more shameful parts of history, being the last to break the color barrier is not quite the celebration of being the first.
      
      I’d be interested to see a list of each team’s first.
      - rgrunds
        
        Actually, Cleveland beat itself that year. Don’t blame Boston. Blame the third base coach who held Lofton. That was exactly the scenario for which we got Lofton.
        
        Speaking of Lofton, team executives let him go about 6 years too early. We let him go for Milton Bradley.
      - http://twitter.com/byRiverBurns River Burns
        
        My anger was my anger, justifiable or not, but the past is the past.
        
        Despite his journey since leaving Cleveland a second time, Lofton did manage to play on 5/6 playoff teams in the Jacobs Field era and 5/9 in the team’s 100+ year history.
    - acto
      
      Babe Ruth
      - acto
        
        What happened rgrunds?
        Do I get any credit for knowing the correct answer?
      - rgrunds
        
        You really know a lot.
    - nj0
      
      So because large, moronic portions of the world overlook the achievement of great men simply because they weren’t first, we should continue to do the same. Got it.
      - rgrunds
        
        Down Boi. A little self-righteous, don’t you think?
      - nj0
        
        Hell yeah. Big Doby fan.
    - acto
      
      Not to be disrespectful to Mr. Doby, he was one of my dad’s favorite players, but….
      
      I would really like to see a John Lowenstein statue right after the Larry Doby statue. Lowenstein was my favorite player when I was a kid.
      
      Who would you pick rgrunds
      - Petefranklin
        
        Jack Brohammer should get a statue just because of his name.
      - rgrunds
        
        Um, No-Neck Walt Williams.
    - https://twitter.com/jimkanicki jimkanicki
      
      mo vaughn?
      - rgrunds
        
        No, he was the second. Just like Doby.
- Jake
  
  Is this writer on crack? Thome #7 on the all time HR list, and if any idiot thinks it’s only because of longevity, Thome is also #5 on the all time HRs per AB list. One the most underrated players of all time – truly a great – and this moron doesn’t want him to have a statue?
Aeroscarr13

Did I miss something? What is Marla referring to? Or is she teasing something she’s working on (I hope)?
- ClevelandFrowns
  
  I think you might be missing something. Did you click the links?
http://twitter.com/byRiverBurns River Burns

It took the organization 47 years just to retire his number in 1994, I’d start anticipating talk of his statue in the mid-2040′s. In the meantime, I do recall Julio Franco, Jerry Browne, and Davey Nelson wearing the jersey.

Personally, after Auburn erected the Cam Newton statue, I don’t much care about statues. I can respect history without a monument, but you’re absolutely right, no way that Thome should be honored in this way before Doby. This could have been done for Doby while he was alive, since he just died in 2003.
- NeedsFoodBadly
  
  Larry Doby should absolutely have a statue. But I think people need to stop erecting statues of the still-living – the Penn State stuff is all the evidence I need for that.
  - ClevelandFrowns
    
    Which is exactly why the Paterno statue should stay up.
GrandRapidsRustlers

As one of the biggest defenders of the Indians and the ownership and management for being the only honest group in Cleveland…I got nothing.

In the words of that group in Berea…No Excuses.

It should be done by opening day.
- GrandRapidsRustlers
  
  To follow up on my own comment…
  
  The one thing that bothers me more than the lack of a statue is when the Indians wear the #42 for Jackie. God bless Jackie and what he did but we are an AL team (back when the 2 leagues actually were different down to the ball they played with) and should always wear the #14 that day.
  - 910Derp
    
    That’s the 2nd great idea I’ve seen since I clicked on this post. GRR, you are the Larry Doby of great ideas!
  - http://twitter.com/byRiverBurns River Burns
    
    At the very least, they should be doing this on July 5th. The Indians broke the AL color barrier for both the player and manager, yet they do so little to recognize it. Maybe it’s time they stop bowing down to the MLB mandated altar of #42, and recognize their own history.
Petefranklin

My biggest concern with the kid is if he was going to be a first round pick next year, why was he trying to enroll at UH less than a month ago? If it was to improve his draft position next year, H&H once again had the wool pulled over their meaty heads by falling in love and overdrafting again. If Josh is really 2nd round material, why didn’t he just declare for the supplemental or regular 2012 draft long ago? I hope he works out though, he seems to be the fit this offense sorely needs.
- mo_by_dick
  
  I don’t know but it sounds like he got some pretty good advice between then and now, doesn’t it? Get money, man.
  - Petefranklin
    
    A tweet about you from a former QB sure helped to line his pockets for a while.
910Derp

The pig looks damn tasty, but more photos of that gorgeous fiddle player will help more to bring out the crowds.
nj0

If the statue could be a racially insensitive caricature of Doby then they probably would have been on top of it years ago.
bupalos

Ugh. You had a legitimate chance to increase your hitcount 40% with a re-repost of violin girl, and you went for singed pig carcass?

Still worried wifey is going to find out violin girl exists and start slapping me.
- ClevelandFrowns
  
  No no. More pageviews if people have to click through to violin girl. Can’t just be giving that up on one page.
  - bupalos
    
    oh if I click through I’ll be in 5 times the trouble.
    
    maybe see folks in tremont this weekend
    - ClevelandFrowns
      
      Yeah! Cheesy eggies will be on special there.
http://www.autismspeaks.org/ PML

Frownie, is this a relative of yours? Taste of Tremont is always a blast. Wish I could be there.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/bikini-clad-ohio-woman-begging-boobs-akron-street-corner-article-1.1113787
- ClevelandFrowns
  
  You’re the one who’s married to someone from you-know-where and you’re asking me if this is one of my relatives?
  - http://www.autismspeaks.org/ PML
    
    Please – like anyone from that horrible place could be so enterprising.
    
    I’ll be sure to Uncle PML that if a Grecian Yoga type heads his way arrest him immediately.
    - ClevelandFrowns
      
      I’ve been practicing my ‘get thrown down staircases’ techniques. I’ll be ready.
    - CleveLandThatILove
      
      You’ve seen Frowns around food, haven’t you? Your cousin stands to lose a finger if he’s not careful.
http://twitter.com/byRiverBurns River Burns

The other Hartland Statue that I own actually is Lou Boudreau. I should have put that one in the picture too.
- ClevelandFrowns
  
  Tweet it out and we’ll get it right up. Do you have any lego trees?
- GrandRapidsRustlers
  
  That is also the proper order of statues…Feller, Doby, Boudreau.
  
  Then Omar…Then Thome.
  
  But let’s just leave that grass area between the Q and Progressive Field because green space…green space.
  
  MLB TV goes down and I’m spending the night planning the Progressive Field surroundings…
  - ClevelandFrowns
    
    What about Bob “when life throws you” Lemon?
    - GrandRapidsRustlers
      
      We can do a dual statue with Lemon tossing off one side of the mound and Harder the other side. Cost Control. You know…$8 beer sales are down. Gotta share a statue here.
  - CleveLandThatILove
    
    There should be a John Adams statue with drum somewhere in the seats someday.
    - Petefranklin
      
      I remember watching the tribe on Braves TV a few years back and things weren’t going so well into the 7th or 8th. Then the smarmy play by play guy starts talking shit about John Adams about what a loser he is and grow up all kinds of stupid crap.Then right on cue the tribe gets it going and sends the Braves packing, I’ll never forget it. Like doing the tomahawk chop and Chief Nockahoma and Jane Hanoi Fonda are cool or something.
ClevelandFrowns

Clark Judge: “Browns jumped way too high to take Gordon” http://cbsprt.co/N3n1Oy
- mo_by_dick
  
  Clark Judge: “The Browns didn’t need another quarterback.”
  - ClevelandFrowns
    
    Good point.
- acto
  
  Clarke Judge? Who is he?
  He was sorely lacking in evidence and substance, but none the less he is full of opinions.
  
  Mike Judge said it best:
  “I give it 10 seasons, that is about enough of a run for anyone.”
- Hopwin
  
  Stolen from comments elsewhere:
  How often does anyone picked in the supplemental draft have much of a career?
  
  Josh Gordon, Terrelle Pryor, Josh Brent, Harvey Unga, Jeremy Jarmon, Jared Gaither, Paul Oliver, Ahmad Brooks, Manuel Wright, Tony Hollings, Milford Brown, J’Juan Cherry…
  
  Man, you could staff up a Taco Bell pretty good with names like those.
  - acto
    
    Bernie Kosar came from the Sup Draft.
https://twitter.com/jimkanicki jimkanicki

two separate issues:
1. larry doby 100% deserves a statue and number retired. and GRR’s suggestion that the indians wear doby’s number instead of jackie’s 42 on the commemorative day is nuts on.
2. jim thome does not deserve statue based on loyalty or performance.
a. thome spent 11 years in cleveland before leaving for the highest bidder. is that significantly different from manny or albert who spent eight years in town before bailing? lofton was here 10 years. i think any of those three were more important parts of the great indians teams than thome.
b. belle led league in RBIs three times while here; ramirez averaged higher than 1.0 for OPS in his last three years; lofton led league in SB five years in a row for tribe —- meanwhile thome was a notorious strikeout champion posting adam dunn like K totals of 171, 171, 185 from 99 to 01.

the thome reverence baffles me.
- jim
  
  Whether Jim Thome deserves a statute more than another player is a justified question, but you also gloss over how statistically good Thome was. Jim Thome’s average season is 39 home runs, 109 RBI’s, 112 walks, a .402 OBP, and a .555 slugging percentage for an OPS of .957. His numbers in Cleveland are even more impressive.
  
  To focus solely on his high strikeout totals completely ignores all other statistical evidence that shows he was one of the dominant power hitters in the game in the 1990′s.
  - ClevelandFrowns
    
    “Jim Thome’s average season is 39 home runs, 109 RBI’s, 112 walks, a .402 OBP, and a .555 slugging percentage for an OPS of .957.”
    
    First ballot HOFer.
    - https://twitter.com/jimkanicki jimkanicki
      
      that the HOF rewards longevity over all else is an unfortunate trend and shortcoming of the hall. way to not get injured jim! i’d take eight years of belle’s complete dominance over thome’s 22 years of swinging hard.
      
      but the criteria for statues is different. he surely exercised his ‘rights’ in free agency, but he also ultimately grasped for the last dollar and demonstrated no loyalty to the indians or their fans.
      
      it really is pathetic to have a statue of him.
  - https://twitter.com/jimkanicki jimkanicki
    
    arguably the fourth most important offensive weapon of the tribe’s 90s teams.
    
    spent three years more than belle/manny/lofton. left in free agency bidding war.
    
    sorry, i just dont see why he’s getting a statue. in fact i think it’s laughable and pathetic that he is getting one.
    - mo_by_dick
      
      One could also support an argument that Thome was the most valuable part of those 90s teams. For example, I was shocked to see Thome’s peak Wins Above Replacement (7.2 in ’96) was higher than either Belle (6.7 in ’98) or Ramirez (7.0 in ’99 — all numbers from baseball-reference.com). I don’t really know enough about it to argue for the efficacy of that specific metric, but I think you’re underselling Thome a bit. Not many have made a better career as a “three true outcomes” player. 7th all-time in Home Runs and Walks earns you a lot of leeway in the strikeout department.
      
      I’m sure the Home Run total, especially the franchise mark, is the reason for the statue. Statue builders dig the long ball.
      
      That said, on a personal level, Belle, Ramirez, and Lofton dominate Thome on my fun-to-watch scale.
      - https://twitter.com/jimkanicki jimkanicki
        
        no doubt. i’m sure i’m underselling him. fully engaged in minor hyperbole to point out the absurdity of him receiving a statue.
        
        statues, to me, are reserved for the bob fellers. they’re on a tier with the charter HOF members — Ty Cobb, Babe Ruth, Honus Wagner, Christy Mathewson and Walter Johnson.
        
        so a big lummox swinging for the fences and taking plenty of called 3rd strikes (cos, you know –> OBP) and then bagging his fans for a couple extra million dollars… just not a guy i give a statue to.
        
        he has no special love for cleveland. why continue to invest in a one-way flawed relationship? you start building statues for that great girlfriend who left you and you’ll soon be served with a restraining order.
      - NeedsFoodBadly
        
        In total agreement with you here. Thome is and was a hell of a player. But he’s not legendary, and he’s especially not a legendary Cleveland Indian. Doby has the color-barrier thing, was as good or better in his own era, and helped win a World Series for Cleveland.
        
        There were plenty of good players on the 90s Indians. Thome’s one of them, but might as well erect a statue of Ramirez, Lofton, Belle, Nagy, etc. Hell, why not give one to Sandy? At least he’s still with the team.
      - ClevelandFrowns
        
        Sandy’s home run against Mariano Rivera in the 2007 ALDS is as good of a thing as a Cleveland Indian has ever done. Possibly the best such thing in the modern era.
      - ClevelandFrowns
        
        1997 ALDS. Derp.
      - NeedsFoodBadly
        
        not going to lie, Sandy is actually my favorite player from that era of Indians ball.
    - CleveLandThatILove
      
      I’ll give him a ribbon for best performance in crying while caving to the players’ union.
- bupalos
  
  Thome’s “white.”
  - https://twitter.com/jimkanicki jimkanicki
    
    that’s kinda what i’m coming back to. i couldn’t hate going there more. but… ?
http://www.autismspeaks.org/ PML

Anybody in Cleveland talking about this?

http://www.tmz.com/2012/07/16/tj-ward-pepper-spray-cops-nightclub-cleveland-browns/

Previous post: Browns Finally Get a Guy from Baylor; Draft WR Josh Gordon with Supplemental 2nd Round Pick

Next post: CBS Projects 1-15 Record for Browns in 2012: “I don’t see any real hope there”

Why doesn’t Larry Doby get a statue if Jim Thome gets one?

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