Analysis: Dan Gilbert’s Cleveland Casino to Drain Hundreds of Millions of Dollars from Northeast Ohio

by Cleveland Frowns on August 22, 2012

Three months after hailing the restoration of Cleveland’s soul and the dawning of a new era with the opening of Dan Gilbert’s Horseshoe Casino, the Plain Dealer has finally gotten around to explaining that the Horseshoe will actually serve as a drain on the economy, and “bad public policy” on the order of hundreds of millions of dollars.

Per Brent Larkin on last Saturday’s editorial page:

The casino made a gross profit in June and July, its first two full months of operation, of $50 million. That’s the total money gambled, minus money paid out to casino patrons.

The monthly take will vary over time, sometimes a lot. But, for now, it seems reasonable to suggest that the casino’s net annual take from gamblers will be about $300 million — or $1 billion every 40 months.

Make no mistake where all this gaming money is coming from. Almost all of that $300 million or more each year in losses at the downtown casino will originate in the pockets of Northeast Ohio residents.

“The ideal situation is to have a casino that draws primarily from outside its jurisdiction,” said William Eadington, an economics professor and head of the University of Nevada, Reno’s Institute for the Study of Gambling and Commercial Gaming. “Cleveland will absolutely not draw a lot of visitors from outside the region.”

Said [John Warren] Kindt, [a professor of business administration at the University of Illinois Champaign-Urbana and a nationally recognized expert on casino gambling], “They’re [the casino owners] going to take millions and millions out of the local economy — more than they’re putting in.”

And apparently a lot more. Even with the $30 million in estimated tax revenue from the casino and the creation of an estimated 1,600 jobs, the PD notes that “most are low-paying, forcing employees to rely on tips from customers” (if this wasn’t true, there wouldn’t have been so many tears when Horseshoe employees saw their first paychecks). We also know that many if not most of these jobs are part-time. So, even with an extremely high estimated average of a $30,000 annual salary for each of these 1,600 jobs, we’re still looking at a net $220 million-plus drain on the local economy.

As for whether this $220 million could be made up for by “a spinoff impact that helps nearby businesses,” well, they haven’t re-upholstered the booths at Houlihan’s yet, but we’ll keep our eyes peeled for that and any other signs of a downtown renaissance. In the meantime it’s safe to assume that most of the Horseshoe’s patrons are hitting the dollar menu on the way home.

So if you were one of those people who wondered how a shiny money trap precisely designed to prey on society’s weakest could possibly be good for anyone but the billionaires who waged the most expensive electoral campaign in Ohio history to change the laws so they could build it, now you know that it’s not. And you also know that the massive casino-building effort undertaken by Dan Gilbert while LeBron was slipping through his fingers wasn’t just good for nobody but Gilbert and his business partners, but actually at least $200 million worth* of bad for everyone else.

Cleveland’s favorite owner. Salute.

*Low estimate

—————–

In other news, Trent Richardson wore a $5,000 Burberry coat for GQ and told them he’s going to make people forget Jim Brown.

Which is all for today. Big Cheddar Bay announcements tomorrow, and who knows what else. Hope everyone has a decent go of it until then.

  • Mebeckwith

    Amen. It amazes me how Dan Gilbert is held in such high regard by fans and media alike. It was all LeBron people.

    Gilbert is the Quicken Loans guy after all. Why should anybody be surprised?

    • http://twitter.com/byRiverBurns River Burns

      He’s just trying to get his paws on the “stupid people tax”, and I don’t blame him. Why should the lottery have all the fun?

      • ClevelandFrowns

        When you place restrictions on and grant special licenses for the exploitation of weakness you normalize weakness and increase incentives to exploit and cultivate it in unnatural ways. The lottery is insanely regressive as well.

      • ClevelandFrowns

        When you place restrictions on and grant special licenses for the exploitation of weakness you normalize weakness and increase incentives to exploit and cultivate it in unnatural ways. The lottery is insanely regressive as well.

        • http://twitter.com/byRiverBurns River Burns

          There’s no question that the process of making downtown gaming a reality, as it has been well-documented on this site, was fast-tracked outside the boundaries of fair and ethical in Gilbert’s favor. Gilbert isn’t the only one that benefits from such back-door politics (when it comes to gaming laws), but I understand the relevance since it hits so close to home.

          It’s all unnatural and regressive, well put.

  • Brian Sipe

    Gilbert’s greatest crime was how he treated LeBron when he left and the fact that he will cut of fhis nose to spite his face in not allowing Bron to come back home in 2 years….

    • BIKI024

      oh please.. he will do anything to increase the value of the brand, or continue to line his pockets. the only reason he acted as childish as he did at first was an attempt to keep some of the fans on his side. if Bron were to come back, Gilbert would welcome him with open midget arms.

  • BIKI024

    yes, Casino’s make profit, stop the presses.

    there are a few more variables that I’d be curious in seeing:

    – is there an increase (or decrease) in revenue for the nearby bars, restaurants and hotels, and by how much.

    – how much of the revenue is generated via the Poker Room, which takes a 10% rake off every hand. i’ve seen pots up to 10K. it’s not necessarily taking money away from people, it’s more of a fee to provide a nice big comfy room to play.

    – how much revenue is grossed from the high-roller room or tables over $50 would be interesting to see as well.

    • ClevelandFrowns

      Bikinomics.

      • BIKI024

        another question: how much money did Mangini make to make an appearance at the grand opening?

    • Hopwin

      I’d also like to know how much of that money was previously being lost in Windsor, Detroit Presque Isle, etc.

      • vespo09

        This is the part I’m really curious about. While I agree that ideally a casino should try and draw from outside its jurisdiction, Ohioans gambling in Ohio is better than Ohioans gambling in PA, MI, etc.

      • ClevelandFrowns

        Probably safe to assume it’s a fraction of $300M, but not sure why it really matters. Regressive wealth transfer is regressive wealth transfer.

        • Hopwin

          But you are not arguing against Casino Gambling, you are specifically arguing against Dan Gilbert’s Casino. In fact your biggest beef is lining the pockets of the man who “took advantage of a poor disadvantaged youth who made good from Akron”, that is assuming that you are expecting us to connect the dots of prior posts on the subject.

        • Hopwin

          So basically your argument is either NIMBY or NIDGP (Not In Dan Gilbert’s Pocket)?

          • ClevelandFrowns

            Not at all.

    • Ess Eh

      10% rake? is that normal?

      • BIKI024

        yup

    • nj0

      “As part of the congressional commission’s 1999 study, the National Opinion Research Center surveyed communities with legal gambling. It concluded that gambling produced no boost “in overall per capita income,” as increases in certain industries were offset by declines in others.”

      “A 2002 National Bureau of Economic Research study of 21 states by economist Melissa Schettini Kearney found that, in the first year after a state instituted a lottery, consumer spending on other purchases fell by about $42 per month per household—nearly as much as was being wagered on the new lotteries.”

      • BIKI024

        i believe in 1999 the only places where there was legal gambling was in Vegas, AC, or on an Indian Reservation, so I’m not sure how much we can take away from that study. It would be interesting to see what the studies will show in 2019 after the influx of casinos in major markets across the country.

        • dubbythe1

          Taht train is coming down these tracks and although we are tied down to said tracks, there is always a possibility that the train never comes. The ‘wait and see’/’oft-weak-flip-side of the coin’ approach sometimes is particulary upsetting.

          Just because a study hasnt been conducted does not mean a condition doesnt exist.

          • BIKI024

            have you been to the casinos on an Indian reservation?? there is NOTHING for at least 30 minutes. so i really don’t think it’s a good example to demonstrate the affect on the economy. and neither is Vegas and AC, which has 20+ casinos each, and clearly not comparing apples to apples.

          • nj0

            I agree that each situation is different. Vegas is Vegas, a reservation is a reservation, and Cleveland is Cleveland.

            That said, the other Cleveland-like areas that have started casinos have not made me confident.

            We shall see. I just wish there had been some more public debate and planning before the Great State of Ohio hitched the wagon to this set of policies to open this set of casinos with this particular oligarch.

      • BIKI024

        i agree completely that every situation is different. which is why it would be interesting to see a study done in 2019, when we’ll have about 10 years of data from the Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Toledo, Columbus experiment. until then, and especially after 2 months, it seems to me it’s way too early to speculate on the ramifications.

        • nj0

          First off, it’s never too early to speculate on ramifications. Everyone does it in pretty much everything in life.

          Second, fine, but I don’t see how a study will help if things turn to shit. A study afterward is fine, but we also could have done some homework before hand. It’s not either or.

          • BIKI024

            uh, they did dozens and dozens of studies. they have been debating this for YEARS. i take it you don’t live in NEO or pay close attention to local politics? (i was only aware of the debates because a friend of mine owns Northfield Park and they have been pushing for this for years upon years.)

          • nj0

            I know various state approved gambling initiatives have been bandied about over the years, from video slots at race tracks to full blown casinos.

            When you say dozen and dozens of studies, I have to say I haven’t seen them. I’d love to. I’ve googled for that sort of the thing in the past and came up empty. What did they say? Can you point to me any?

            And yes, I’ve been out of state for several years now and have only keep as informed as time and the internet has allowed.

            For the record, I’m not against gambling in Ohio though I have many concerns.

            One of my main issues with the current casino plan is that it creates a monopoly that punishes other entities in the marketplace.

    • http://twitter.com/Mezosphere Mez

      It’s a 10% rake up to a limit of $6. No poker player would sit around while they took $1k from a $10k pot. Higher games are subject to a seat fee over time, and not per hand rakes. Poker is NOT a big money maker for any casino.

      • BIKI024

        you are correct, the rake varies and it is not a big money maker, but it does make money and it is one of the many line items that i would be interested in seeing. Buddy of mind from high school is one of the poker room floor managers and he says they have done very well thus far and in the 3 times i’ve been in the room, it is quite busy.

    • http://twitter.com/Mezosphere Mez

      It’s a 10% rake up to $6. And some of the higher limit games don’t have a rake and have seat fees over time. No poker player would sit around while they took $1k from a $10k pot. Poker Rooms are NOT money makers for casinos.

      • BIKI024

        you are correct, the rake varies and it is not a big money maker, but it does make money and it is one of the many line items that i would be interested in seeing. Buddy of mind from high school is one of the poker room floor managers and he says they have done very well thus far and in the 3 times i’ve been in the room, it is quite busy.

        • http://twitter.com/Mezosphere Mez

          I certainly agree that they’ve done well, been busy the few times I’ve walked through, and I have played twice myself early in its openings. I just wanted to correct any misconceptions as to how much they were taking per pot in some games. They’ll start having tournaments soon (may have, not sure) and I know they are having a WSOP circuit event in March that should bring a lot of extra interest to the room and casino, so it’ll be interesting to see how the tournament fees calculate and add up to the bottom line.

          • BIKI024

            yeah, it’s nice for the cleveland players that’s it’s a bracelet event. there’s a nice camaraderie amongst a lot of the players too. good to see these guys get out of their home games and competing against their local peers. gives some of these guys a slight advantage of knowing how a guy plays, but it’s all good.

  • DocZeusX

    Do me a favor the next time you write some BS paternalistic rant to protect the helpless, stupid poor people of Ohio from the horrors of the gaming industry, please go ask THEM “why they enjoy gambling?”

    Because what anti-gaming advocates seem to have a willful blind spot to is that a casino is in the entertainment business. It’s only a “drain” on the economy as much as you take the subjective opinion that gambling has no value to it’s customer beyond the tangible financial rewards a person might have on winning.

    Placing moral judgment on people’s entertainment choices is just profoundly ridiculous.

    • Hopwin

      So you are saying dropping 100s of dollars into a video slot machine is no different than dropping 100s of dollars into a video game at Dave n Busters?

      • http://twitter.com/cpmack Chris M

        Is it any different than dropping hundreds or thousands of dollars on tickets for losing sports teams every year? It would be an easy argument to make that at least spending in a casino has some chance at a return, no matter the size of that chance.

    • BIKI024

      here here!

      and what really is the difference between gambling revenue and revenue made off the sale of alcohol? so i suppose all the bars in the area should be shut down, because lord knows people drain their money on booze, with nothing much to show for it the next day except a hangover, or a DUI, or possibly a baby in 9 months..

      • ClevelandFrowns

        Take it from Northeast Ohio’s foremost connoisseur of shit sandwiches.
        PS drinking is fun and strengthens social bonds and world peace. Apples and bobbie pins.

        • Art_Brosef

          While I personally agree with you re: drinking, there are plenty of abused wives and children, and families with young relatives in coffins who would disagree. To say comparing drinking with gambling is apples and bobby pins is just not accurate. They are both vices that, when abused, are destructive in so many obvious ways that dont need to be listed.

          Nearly ten percent of drinkers become alcoholics and just under five percent of gamblers develop a gambling problem. Factor in the number of people who drink vs the number who gamble and its probably really not close which poses the bigger threat to society. And it certainly isnt outrageous to compare the two.

          • ClevelandFrowns

            Don’t disagree at all, but it should be obvious that I’m not comparing drinking and gambling. I’m comparing drinking with casino gaming, which is to gambling what drinking warm Listerine is to boozing.

          • Art_Brosef

            I think today I will event a new shot at the Map Room and name it “Warm Listerine.” Will be perfect timing for Browns season.

          • mo_by_dick

            ^Warm Listerine shot: Creme de Menthe, 151, and hot dog water, heated to 150F

          • CleveLandThatILove

            Whatever happened to the Holmgren Crotch Shot special at Map Room?

          • mo_by_dick

            they ran out of space in the fridge for all that cheez whiz

        • BIKI024

          table games are fun and strengthens social bonds as well. had a great time playing BJ with random peeps, talking Brownies, etc. i had a great time

          • ClevelandFrowns

            Mmm hmm.

          • BIKI024

            right, it’s impossible to have fun in a casino, just impossible. good lord. you should work the room one night and hand out ClevelandFrowns business cards that you’re so great at doing

          • BIKI024

            thank god you are here to keep civilization together. what a joke

          • mo_by_dick

            liked for “playing BJ with random peeps” #maturity

          • ClevelandFrowns

            “Broken Civilization” with Biki and Random BJ Peeps. Would pay to watch.

          • bupalos

            I move to replace Derp with “playing BJ with random peeps.”

          • ClevelandFrowns

            Granted.

          • 910Derp

            same here. heheheh

          • 6thCity

            Straight palm doggin’ some randoms

        • acto

          Go Frownie!
          There has always been a need to help people with OCD.
          This casino preys upon them.
          Stupidity and OCD run rampant in my family and I have already seen the deliterious effects of this casino on my family.

    • ClevelandFrowns

      How thunderingly stupid. Of course the problem isn’t the people who eat the shit sandwiches, its the people who make it so that the shit sandwiches are the most attractive item on the menu for so many folks. What’s actually paternalistic is assuming that folks play these games for any other reason than that they don’t have anything better to do. The last part is the sad part and one that’s easily connected with broken civilization.

      Of course, if you want to pretend that there’s no possible objective measure of the value of casino games stacked for the house, you’ve set yourself up for an argument you can’t lose, so congrats!

      • BIKI024

        but sportswagering isn’t stacked for the house? sweet feathury jesus. your hatred for Gilbert is really clouding your judgement bud

      • vespo09

        “Of course the problem isn’t the people who eat the shit sandwiches, its the people who make it so that the shit sandwiches are the most attractive item on the menu for so many folks.”

        I do think that there’s a real need for more and better “sandwiches” in NE Ohio – doubt anyone would disagree with that.

        • BIKI024

          i hit up B-Spot over the weekend in the Shoe, it was terrific. had a bite of a sandwich from Rocco’s as well, very tasty

        • mo_by_dick

          WHEW I thought you were for realz trying to downplay the state of the sandwich in Cleveland, which would’ve led to all sorts of unpleasantries.

      • Dood

        ‘How thunderingly stupid.’ I’ll be borrowing this expression as often as I get the chance. Which will be often. Reminds me of Orson Welles.

        “That doesn’t make any sense. Sorry. There’s no known way of saying an English sentence in which you begin a sentence with ‘in’ and emphasize it. Get me a jury and show me how you can say “in July”, and I’ll go down on you. That’s just idiotic, if you’ll forgive me my saying so.

        You’re such pests…now, what is it you want? In the depths of your ignorance, what is it you want?”

        • NeedsFoodBadly

          Here, under protest, is beef burgers.

      • http://twitter.com/byRiverBurns River Burns

        So, we just need a few more billionaires to set up shot in Northeast Ohio to liven up the “menu”?

    • nj0

      An argument against Dan Gilbert’s state-sponsored gambling monopoly is not a moral argument against gambling.

      Observing that history has shown state-sponsored gambling is not a magic bullet for economic reform is not a moral argument against gambling.

    • dubbythe1

      WHY ARE YOU PUNCHING YOURSELF IN THE FACE!!!!WHY ARE YOU PUNCHING YOURSELF IN THE FACE!!!!WHY ARE YOU PUNCHING YOURSELF IN THE FACE!!!!

      Im pretty sure if we collected the opine of the ‘stupid poor people’ of Ohio on the reason they gamble, their answer would almost always be “purely entertainment”

      • nj0

        “In a recent consumer study, 21 percent of individuals surveyed – including 38 percent of those with income below $25,000 – reported that winning the lottery was “the most practical strategy for accumulating several hundred thousand dollars” of wealth for their own retirement.”

        http://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/www/external/events/2010/11/18/financial-literacy-what-works.pdf

        • Beeej

          Why get rich slowly over time with budgeted spending, consistent saving, and a diversified portfolio when you can get rich real quick with “one big score?” I mean, the latter just seems so much easier. Then once you get the big score you never have to worry about money again. Just spend spend spend with no consequences.

        • Petefranklin

          Why play lotto when all you have to do is bet against the injuns on the run line! I Guess waiting for the next game takes too long for those jag offs.

  • https://twitter.com/jimkanicki jimkanicki

    off topic –> cheddar friend @dwhalen5 seems to have been eerily prescient with his unflagging support of russell wilson last year.

    rare to nail something so totally as a 5’11” 3th round pick starting at qb as a rookie. just thought that was worth an atta boy.

    • bupalos

      I believe Acto was on Wilson as well, if I remember. I’d still like to see the guy play a bit before handing out the annual Colt McCoy Memorial Sleeper Prize.

      • acto

        Yes, I was very impressed by Wilson. I had him at#2 in the draft behind Luck.

        • acto

          Not #2 overall, #2 QB.

          • p_forever

            lol we get it OF COURSE you wouldn’t have had qb’s going 1 and 2 in the draft – oh man did you even have luck #1?

          • actovegin1armstrong

            Yes, but rather begrudgingly.
            In this new “powder puff”, pass happy style of football currently being played; a QB can be somewhat important.
            There were a couple of guys on the important side of the ball that I liked, but , not for #1.

          • p_forever

            admit the real reason you didn’t go to nd is because it’s the home of the forward pass.

          • acto

            p_4, I was very fond of the “forward pass” and I still use it whenever it is called for. I am not shy.

          • p_forever

            i’m shy sometimes, but never on frowns, so you wouldn’t have know that.

      • https://twitter.com/jimkanicki jimkanicki

        sorry bout the omission, acto.

        i think our cheddar-player-insights on wilson look good already -even this early- when you consider he’s beating out Matt Flynn, who runs the Browns’ beloved West Coast offense.


        this is off topic too, but too good not to post. look at these two headlines from MKC on matt flynn. lolz.

        Report: Cleveland Browns making offer for Packers backup QB Matt Flynn
        Published: Wednesday, March 14, 2012, 7:01 AM
        Cleveland hasn’t pursued Green Bay Packers backup QB Matt Flynn, not set to make offer: Browns Insider
        Published: Wednesday, March 14, 2012, 10:54 PM

    • BIKI024

      BTW, he hasn’t been named the starter for the season. he is getting the start to see how he does with the #1’s. so we’ll see how the kid does.

      • Jim

        This and he has played exclusively against second and third stringers thus far. The list of rookie quarterbacks not picked in the first round who step right in and succeed right away is extraordinarily short.

        • actovegin1armstrong

          Jim,
          How large is the list of 1st round rookie QB’s who step in and succeed right away?

        • Yahmule

          No doubt, the Broncos couldn’t get Wilson off the field, but a scrambling QB who can throw is bound to look good against guys playing man coverage who are going to be driving beer trucks in a few weeks.

  • Jim

    Does Larkin’s story take into account the monies these gamblers typically spent in West Virginia, Pennsylvania, Michigan, or Indiana prior to the Horseshoe Casino opening? As in, how much of that “$220 million-plus drain” is money that would have simply been spent out of state if there was no casino in Cleveland?

    I’m not entirely sure its breaking news that most of the patrons hail from northeast Ohio. In fact, many economists and industry insiders predicted this.

  • BIKI024

    seems like Haden got word of his penalty just a few minutes ago. let the appeal process begin!

    • vespo09

      He got pulled from practice today, apparently for being too rough. Wonder if he’s pissed about the penalty?

      http://espn.go.com/blog/afcnorth/post/_/id/53137/browns-haden-pulled-from-practice

      • BIKI024

        yeah I watched Shurmur’s presser, it seems like everyone was a bit emotional.

      • bupalos

        Cleve.com has the video, it’s so minor it can’t have been the actual roughness, I have to think it was just whatever jawing resulted.

        BTW it is tight coverage and a nice throw by Weeden on the play.

  • mo_by_dick
    • ClevelandFrowns

      Forgot about that. Thanks.

  • http://twitter.com/byRiverBurns River Burns

    So, it appears that Dan Gilbert is pretty good at taking money from people willing to give it to him. I just can’t stand on any moral high ground, and say that I’d feel bad about taking money from the people who could not afford to give it to me, and maybe that makes me a bad person.

    I can’t help but be reminded of the segment of society I saw at Papa John’s for $.23 ‘za, especially those who called off their jobs, or bitched about the wait when I think about the folks that will suffer because of the Horseshoe’s existence. Yes, I do feel bad for the employees that aren’t making the fortune that they were once promised, but in the same way I feel bad for the ladies of the Lido Lounge expecting Christie’s/Diamonds money. As far as the customers that hemorrhage their hard earned (or otherwise obtained) monies, I have yet to read about any type of martial law men escorting the fine people of Northeast Ohio to this gaming establishment.

    Bottom line: If you don’t want to give your money to a casino, don’t take your money to a casino.

    • ClevelandFrowns

      “I just can’t … say that I’d feel bad about taking money from the people who could not afford to give it to me.”

      I don’t believe you.

      • humboldt
      • http://twitter.com/byRiverBurns River Burns

        I try not to give myself the benefit of the doubt in such hypothetical situation. I’m not now, nor will I ever be a loan shark, but I’ve seen first-hand, how greed can consume people, and I don’t know that I’m immune from it.

        It’s really not my desire to defend Gilbert as a human being or a business-man, but I’m weary of how much we tend to blur the line between taking advantage of a free market and white collar ruthlessness. Or, maybe this conservative cest pool that I live in is starting to rub off on me.

        My red-eye to Hopkins tonight can’t get here soon enough; this heat is beginning to fry my brain.

        • ClevelandFrowns

          I think we’ve identified the problem.

  • p_forever

    ugh. why is trent richardson insisting upon awfulness this early in his (non) career?

    and who would ever want to forget jim brown?

    in fact, since we’re on the topic of what’s good for the local economy, it’s a fine time to remember that while he was still playing for cleveland, jim brown founded the Black Economic Union, which used professional athletes to help establish local minority-run businesses, sports programs for inner-city kids, and motivational and educational programs for the urban poor.

    i suppose he could have worn a $5,000 burberry coat instead, and told clevelanders that with one trip to the slots they could be wearing one too, but i think the BEU was the better approach.

  • nj0

    I don’t like reposting, but since it directly applies… a recent article on the failure of casinos and lotteries.

    “As part of the congressional commission’s 1999 study, the National Opinion Research Center surveyed communities with legal gambling. It concluded that gambling produced no boost “in overall per capita income,” as increases in certain industries were offset by declines in others.”

    http://www.city-journal.org/2012/22_3_gambling.html

    • ClevelandFrowns

      There’s good reposting and there’s bad reposting. Carry on.

  • bupalos

    I have to admit I am impressed by that revenue figure, I have to think it’s a grand opening thing, no?

    There really aren’t enough details to make a judgement on what is actually happening here. You have to know where the money is coming from and where it is going, not just how much is flowing. Basically, if it’s a net transfer from the underclass and working class to the wealthy (as it appears in Detroit) then it’s an economic vampire, while the opposite would be…the opposite. Without seeing numbers or actually being there I’ll leave open Biki’s “high roller” scenario and the possibility that this won’t be the disaster I pretty much expect. We do have a lot of pro athletes passing through here, possibly a higher proportionate share than any other market you could name. Maybe that can buffer things.

    I’d have to say, if there really were 1600 jobs averaging 30k (I seriously doubt it’s even half that), I’m pretty sure the indirect and induced effect of that many downtown jobs would make up a decent portion of your calculated $220MM outflow by itself.

    • ClevelandFrowns

      The 300m annual estimate comes from projecting 50% of the monthly revenue from the opening two weeks, thus accounting for the “grand opening thing.”
      And whatever the “indirect and induced effect of that many downtown jobs” is, we have to assume it’s only a fraction of the salary these folks will be making (which again totals about 50m on an extremely high estimate).

      • stkoran

        Where are you seeing that the $300M estimate is derived from 50% of the monthly revenue from the opening two weeks? The Article says the profit for June and July was $50M. I assume the $300M projections comes from ($50M/2 Months) x (12 Months/1 Year) = $300M/Year.

        • ClevelandFrowns

          I think you’re right. Bup’s sliver of hope might just have doubled in size.

      • Hgfret

        This entire discussion is weak. You’re better than this, Peter.

      • bupalos

        Probably not a low fraction, probably more like 50%. Indirect effect refers to the profits made by local suppliers and induced effect is basically the multiplier effect from employees spending their direct wages. I’d really like to see the real numbers, but I don’t suppose that’s likely. I imagine we’re working off the cooked books they used to sell this pig in a poke.

        All I’m saying is that IF there really were 1600 jobs paying 30-40k connected with this thing (I’d be totally and utterly shocked if that was anything close to true), and if the bulk of the revenue came out of wealthier folks (again, very surprised if that would be true) then it’s possible this wouldn’t be a disaster for the city.

  • Hopwin

    Ooo anyone checked out the super-fancy Cleveland Browns Hospitality Group? http://www.cbhospitality.com/

    Holmgren doesn’t always do things but when he does it is food related. #interestingman

  • http://www.agent-seo.com/ Jacob Stoops

    I totally agree with this article and while I think the idea of trying to bring people downtown was a good idea, the fact that the casino will obviously be taking more than it is putting back into the local economy – even with the jobs that it provides is fairly concerning. I’m a native of Columbus, but I spend a lot of time in Cleveland for my job, so this type of thing is super-important for the viability of many things in the downtown Cleveland area.

    That being said, what I think is a bit off – and please don’t take this the wrong way – is that you crush Gilbert constantly but at the same time accept his testimonial on your site. I love your site’s content and plan to keep on reading, but I just think that part is a little hypocritical given that there is a bias. Gilbert has done some good things and some not so good things, so I applaud you for your honesty in such matters, just wanted to say my piece.

    • BIKI024

      we actually don’t know what it’s actually doing with the money. where was the consumer going to spend the money if they didn’t put it into the casino? the bar? their clothes? vacation to other cities/states? Browns games? the bank? there are way too many variables at play here to really say if it’s “good” or “bad” for Cleveland. seems to me that the only way it’s bad is if crime rates increase due to people losing all their money gambling and they turn into stickup kids. otherwise there’s a reason you have to be 21 years old to gamble, because you’re a grown ass person and can spend your money however you please.

      • ClevelandFrowns

        That’s all great. So why can’t any grown ass person host his own casino games?

        • BIKI024

          they do, all the time

          just a lot easier and convenient to be able to go to the casino. but sure, there are private games all the time, particularly poker.

        • http://twitter.com/cpmack Chris M

          Anyone can host their own poker game, it’s when the house takes a rake that it becomes illegal.

          • ClevelandFrowns

            Right. So why can’t any grown ass person take a rake for hosting a proper game?

          • http://twitter.com/cpmack Chris M

            Most (if not all) states that allow legalized gambling require a gaming license of some kind in order to legally take a rake. This is because that entity is basically printing money, and the state wants their cut.

            Believe me, if I could legally host a game or 20 at a time where I get a cut regardless of who wins, I’d rent a warehouse full of card tables and my spare bedroom would end up looking like this.

      • actovegin1armstrong

        Biki,
        Obviously the words of a true gambling degenerate.
        You should hit the Horseshoe with my brother. He shares your SuperFan tendencies and gambling rationalizations as well.

    • mo_by_dick

      Did you click the link on that testimonial?

    • ClevelandFrowns

      Thanks. I think you might feel better about the Gilbert testimonial if you take a closer look at it.

  • p_forever

    graham spanier joins chris perez in the ranks of those with no regrets:
    “I would say I wouldn’t have done anything differently.”

    incredibly, he should have stopped while he was ahead; here’s what came next:

    “And, you know, there are times when I am in a mode of substantial grief about what happened to those kids. And then I switch into times of grieving for myself, and my colleagues. . .”

    did penn state already settle all the civil lawsuits filed against them related to sandusky? if not, they probably should.

    http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/newsdesk/2012/08/graham-spanier-interview-on-sandusky-scandal.html

    • nj0

      Are there no companies in Happy Valley that provide public relations help?

      • p_forever

        I guess not. Its hard to believe they could continue to bungle this, but they are.

  • maxfnmloans

    The casino is here now. The only logical course of action is to try and make the best of things by making Cleveland more attractive to travelers so that all the money funneling though the casino is not locally sourced. Any chance we can get Cedar Point moved to Burke Lakefront?

  • rodofdisaster

    You couldn’t find a photo with slot players wearing oxygen cannulae?

  • Bittence

    First – who cares? If you don’t like it don’t go. Legalizing gambling is like legalizing weed. Let people live their life as they wish. Nice assumption that those who are gambling are “society’s weakest.”

    Also some faulty assumptions – profit is different from take. Further we have seen prior stories about decreased attendance and take at casinos in neighboring states, so any legitimate discussion needs to consider whether gambling has increased or the lOcation has changed. A change in location means no change in the drain on the local economy but with the chance some of the money may stay local – wages, expenses, property taxes, income taxes, etc . . .

    • ClevelandFrowns

      ‘Nice assumption that those who are gambling are “society’s weakest.”‘

      Um, have you been to the casino?

      But if you don’t want to use your own eyes, here’s a useful stat:

      “Gamblers with household incomes of less than $10,000 bet nearly three times as much on lotteries as those with incomes above $100,000.”

      More here: http://www.getgovernmentoutofgambling.org/21-reasons/

      The problem isn’t with legalizing gambling, the problem is with granting special licenses to operate casinos that place them above competition from any other form of similar gaming, which creates unnatural and regressive incentives to exploit and cultivate weakness for these idiotic games.

      Be honest: How many hours have you billed doing legal work for Dan Gilbert or his companies?

      • Bittence

        I agree government should not give a special license to one operator over the others. If it is legal to operate a casino in Ohio, I think any qualified operator should be able to get a license.

        But, no I have never been to the casino. I don’t care for gambling.

  • https://twitter.com/jimkanicki jimkanicki

    can i ask if dan gilbert was also preying on the feeble-minded political leaders of cuyahoga county? how does frank jackson’s embrace of casino gambling factor into this? why doesnt he shoulder some blame? arent our govt leaders supposed to work in the public interest to protect the greater good?

    the answer, of course, is that whatever revenue the casino generates for gilbert, cuyahoga county effectively gets their skim. not only is wealth redistributed to dan gilbert, but also to state and local govt.

    if we’re calling out villains, let’s call out all the villains.

    • ClevelandFrowns

      Oh they all suck. That should go without saying.

  • George

    This article is has merit because the money lost gambling by neglectful parents would have otherwise gone to needy children college funds.

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