Bad Day for Vick in Dawg Pound: Eagles Still Can’t Give Game to Browns

by Cleveland Frowns on September 10, 2012

“[I]t’s not what anyone expected from the golden-armed redhead on opening day.”Mary Kay Cabot on Brandon Weeden

“I did not see a guy that was starry-eyed. Not at all. … I’m not discouraged at all.”Pat Shurmur on Brandon Weeden

“Aw, man, I gotta get out of Cleveland. I gotta get out of Cleveland.”Michael Vick on Cleveland

—————

If you wondered how the Eagles finished 8-8 last season despite a roster supposedly loaded with talent, or if you wondered what coaching tree Pat Shurmur was plucked from, you’re wondering less after watching Philly average over 5 yards per carry yesterday with one of the league’s best running backs (even with three plays of 10+ yards called back on penalties), yet insist on calling 60 pass plays to 23 runs. After the Browns pulled within four points in the third quarter, the Eagles went three straight series without a single rushing attempt, resulting in two three-and-outs and a throw by Michael Vick straight into the arms of D’Qwell Jackson, who returned the interception for a touchdown. This kind of imbalance in play calling is something Eagles fans have been “lament[ing] for over a decade,” and here’s Philly head coach Andy Reid’s response to the latest round of complaints:

“We thought we saw some things there for the pass game. They were giving us some coverages that we thought we could take advantage of. We hit the one before the half and thought we could come back and get them again there.”

Naturally folks want to be excited about a “heroic” performance by the Browns defense, so if you’re following: A heroic defense allows its opponent to gain 456 yards of offense (more than all but one defense in the NFL allowed in Week 1 — i.e., “second worst”), including by getting rolled up for a 90-yard touchdown drive with a six-point lead in the game’s final minutes when a hold would have guaranteed a win. This same heroic defense couldn’t stop the run at all, allowing its opponent to gain more than 5 yards per carry. Yet despite that the heroic defense’s opponent didn’t need to put the ball in the air at all to average a first down every two plays, the opponent’s head coach was so tantalized by some weakness he saw in heroic defense’s pass coverages that he couldn’t resist airing it out even though his quarterback had been playing like an epileptic toddler all afternoon.

So it’s not just that remotely sober play calling by Reid would have resulted in an Eagles blowout, it’s that even a D-minus performance by Vick probably would have, too. Which isn’t to say the Browns shouldn’t be congratulated for mostly catching the ball when Vick threw it to them.

If you didn’t see it yourself and don’t want to take it from us, here’s Zac Jackson at Fox Sports Ohio: “Vick threw into double and triple coverage all day.”

And here’s Andrew Kulp at The 700 Level: “[On two of Vick's four interceptions, he] twice had a comfortable pocket, made a bad read, and proceeded to throw right into coverage.” [Another one of the picks bounced off of Jeremy Maclin's hands right into Joe Haden's.]

Cf., Mary Kay Cabot at the Plain Dealer: “[T]he ball-hawking crew picked off Michael Vick four times[!!!!!!!!!]”

Oh, hey, Brandon Weeden. Good luck finding a worse performance by a Browns quarterback in history, and note that Pat Shurmur isn’t discouraged at all, because he’s not allowed to be. Which is sure to continue to play well in the Browns locker room.

The good news about yesterday is that we saw what people mean when they talk about how hard it is for a team to finish 0-16 in the NFL. There will inevitably be those weeks when your opponent will do everything they can to give you the game like the Eagles did yesterday. The bad news is that the Browns still couldn’t take advantage, and 0-16 is as much in play as ever. Andy Reid won’t be the only one to see some coverages to take advantage of on yesterday’s tape.

  • ClevelandFrowns

    I will be wagering heavily on the Eagles next week.

    Also, don’t forget the pick is Bengals +6 for Monday night: http://www.clevelandfrowns.com/2012/09/week-2-cheddar-bay-reality-football-open-thread/#comment-645043786

    • ClevelandFrowns

      So maybe it is Flacco’s year? The Ravens looked scary last night.

  • bupalos

    Was the defense as good as you’d think giving up 17 points in 17 possessions to an explosive team? No. Was it anything like as “bad” and “lucky” as you’re suggesting here? No.

    When Tom Brady had probably the worst performance of his life against the Browns in ’10, I don’t remember hearing that much about how every now and then a team just tries to hand it you you. Or how they had no running game. The difference between this game and the sparks of life in ’10 was a redheaded stepchild that hadn’t played an NFL game in his life. Vick played badly because Vick got MASHED. He kept throwing it to linebackers because linebackers actually played pass positions for once. Would the Eagles have done better to balance things more? Probably. But by the same token, if they are loading up and running all the time, I doubt we’re in the constant nickel sets.

    Give some credit where it’s due. No, it was not an epic thrashing, yes there was some random variation (that went both ways, btw), but the defense played very well. We’ll see if this Eagles team is as hapless and badly coached as your making them on Monday.

    • ClevelandFrowns

      Step away from the bath salts. You will never in a billion years convince me that a defense that gives up 5 yards per carry is not terrible.

      Of course there’s also that the Browns defense gave up more yards than all but two other teams in the league. Read again: On two of Vick’s interceptions, he was untouched in the pocket and made a bad read. On another, he made a bad throw that went off the hands of a wide open receiver.

      And about some random variation that did not go both ways: Eagles flagged 12 times for 110 yards. Browns 3 flags for 35.

      • Bryan

        See my comment below. I think you are overlooking the fact that we played arguably the best back in the game. Yes, the run D struggled a bit, but relative to previous struggles against elite backs I thought they held their own. I think they can do well against some of the less spectacular backs in the league.

        • ClevelandFrowns

          Step. Away. From. The. Bath. Salts.

          Five. Yards. Per. Carry. Average.

          Football.

          • bupalos

            NFL. 2012. Teams. Win. Championships. Giving. Up. Five. Yards. Per. Carry. Average.

          • ClevelandFrowns

            This. Is. So. Stupid.

            Of course teams with excellent offenses can get away with a defense that can’t stop the run, and run defense numbers get inflated in shootouts and blowouts. None of that applies here.

          • Cranky M

            It probably has nothing to do with the fact that they were playing to stop the pass, since Philly passes it roughly 99% of the time, right? Or the fact that when Philly actually started running the ball, the defense was probably worn out from being on the field for the vast majority of the game?

            No? They’re just terrible? Gotcha…

          • ClevelandFrowns

            This all reminds me of the early game comment threads last year when I was trying to explain to people that wins over the Colts and Dolphins really were not a big deal and that the team was going to finish with no more than 4 wins. Nobody wanted to listen then either.

        • ClevelandFrowns

          “Relative to previous struggles against elite backs I thought they held their own.”

          To the extent this is true at all it’s only because Reid decided to pass on 60 of the Eagles’ 83 plays.

          Bath salts. Step away from them.

          • CrazyTrain1

            That best back in the league was drafted by Tom Heckert … right after Eric Mangini drafted all-world LB David Veikune. A guy who is so awesome, the NFL just couldn’t let him play for more than a season!

      • Jim

        Don’t disagree with any of this. I would say, however, that the defensive front got good pressure on Vick all day long. Which is something.

        • ClevelandFrowns

          By about the 30th dropback without a running play it starts to get a lot easier on the pass rush. The Eagles did appear to miss Jason Peters pretty badly, though.

          • bupalos

            They got more pressure early than late.

          • ClevelandFrowns

            Right. They stopped getting pressure in the fourth quarter when the Eagles remembered to mix a few run plays in. Glad you are following.

      • bupalos

        >>>Step away from the bath salts. You will never in a billion years convince me that a defense that gives up 5 yards per carry is not terrible.>>>

        Bad news for the superbowl champions, I guess you have until the year 1000002012 to let them know they should give it up. What’d they do Wednesday? OOF. 5.5. And Dallas was too stupid to see those average stats and just run every down. Crazy.

        Situations matter. The D reacts to what the offense does. If they are passing all day long then yeah, they’ll catch you in nickel and dime on 3 or 4 longer runs, whoopdedoo. We gave up an average of 25 yards per possession. They had an incredibly high number of possessions mostly thanks to an incredibly stupendously bad offense–I’d guess the most posessions in the NFL yesterday. Had to be. So I think the yardage number is kind of bogus.

        >>>And about some random variation that did not go both ways: Eagles flagged 12 times for 110 yards. Browns 3 flags for 35.>>>

        Right, since flags just fall from the sky and hit whoever they hit, we just got lucky there. How many of those flags were holding because the d-line was flat out winning the battle?

        I like this line of attack a lot more than the old line of “the other team doesn’t bother to try because they know our offense is so bad.” But I think and hope it’s going to get harder and harder for you to keep explaining away our D’s numbers.

        • Bryan

          Great points Bup.

          Frowns,
          An alternative and equally reasonable interpretation of the Eagles play calling yesterday is the following: Given how many times they passed the ball, the Browns D began to expect pass, had passing Defense personnel on the field the majority of the game, and thus were more vulnerable to the run. In fact, one might even think (from watching the Browns scheme) that Jauron made a conscious decision to take away big plays from Vick in the passing game (and with his legs) and let McCoy try to beat them on his own.

          • ClevelandFrowns

            So it’s “equally reasonable” to assume that the Eagles kept calling pass plays because they knew the Browns had passing defense personnel on the field? Or is it because the Eagles were just assuming that they couldn’t run on the Browns despite the 5+ ypc average?

            I’m done here.

          • Bryan

            No. Its equally reasonable to assume that the Eagles, an aggressive offense, came in with a confident gameplan to throw the ball downfield a lot against a young secondary and extraordinarily thin group of LBs (a plan that would have become more attractive after Sheldon Brown went down) and that the Browns Defense deserves credit for stopping that gameplan.

            The high ypc took place in that context. The Browns geared up to stop the pass (as they should have), and I think you are underselling their effort.

            This is not to say we have a stout run Defense. It is simply to say that focusing on YPC while refusing to give any credit for 4 int’s and a great pass rush is unfair.

          • ClevelandFrowns

            So the Eagles came in with a stupid game plan and stubbornly refused to respond to what was dictated by the Browns’ real world inability to stop the run. If you want to do backflips about it it’s your world but this team, defense included, is still on a bullet to 0-16.

          • Bryan

            0-16 is a possibility with Shurmur running the show and Weeden playing at the level he did yesterday. But I think the D will continue to provide a source of optimism.

          • lilkeysdad

            Interestingly enough, a Vick scramble aside, the Eagles ran 4 times for a total of 9 yards on the last TD drive.

          • ClevelandFrowns

            Right, but the fact that the Browns had to account for the run on that drive surely made it easier on the Eagles passing game.

        • ClevelandFrowns

          Yes, the Giants defense was rolled up by the Cowboys, who ran the ball 26 times out of 58 plays. That’s twice as much as the Eagles ran comparatively. And Dallas won, too.

          Come back and talk to me when the defense doesn’t give up 5 yards per carry. Until then, the assumption is that they are terrible.

    • dubbythe1

      Biki stop posting through Bup’s login!

  • Bryan

    Frowns,

    I am discouraged as you by Weeden and Shurmur. Shurmur is clearly not qualified for the gig, and I think Jauron or Childress will be interim head coach soon after Haslam takes the reigns in October. If people haven’t yet, watch Shurmur’s discussion of Vick’s alleged fumble in the post game presser. He literally sounds like a caveman in discussing his strategy for the challenge and his subsequent reaction to the refs decision to block the challenge. God, I really dislike him as a coach.

    On the other hand, I think you are a bit too dismissive of the Defense. I thought they schemed well and confused Vick. Vick threw into double coverage at least partially because the Defense did a nice job preparing for him and confusing him. Also, as TP noted, we knocked Vick down 19 times. That is impressive for a team that has struggled to have a pass rush in recent years. I agree that the run Defense was not great, but McCoy averaged 5.2 and 4.8 ypc the last two years. He is arguably the best back in the game. In my eyes he performed slightly above average. Holding arguably the best back in the game to a relatively average game is pretty good compared to what we have seen in previous years. Especially given the youth on the D line. I am as skeptical as you, but I must admit that I felt legit optimism for our Defense after yesterday. Heckert deserves some credit for building a solid foundation there.

    • Hamfist

      Gotta say this was a nice summary of my thoughts.

    • bupalos

      ESPN has us with 11 official QB hits, which is pretty clearly the highest number and likely the highest rate in the NFL yesterday. Credit where it’s due. We’re missing the 2011 #1 pick on the line and getting excellent pressure. Too bad we have to wait for week 12 to get at Big ben’s rapey, siphilitic bones. He’s not even leaving with 1 leg this time.

    • Beeej

      You have to wonder if some of the double coverage throws were b/c he had is bell rung and was hearing footsteps?

      • Kamov

        Biki how’d you do that !??!?

        I didn’t know you had teh 1337 skillz!

        • BIKI024

          yessir!

  • Beeej

    I would like to revise my Browns prediction to 15-1 (16-0 ATS) before the world ends on 12-21-12.

    • ClevelandFrowns

      Booked.

    • acto

      Beeej,
      Save yourself a week and make it 14-2. Biki will hook you up with “blunts, bumps, and broads.”

    • BIKI024

      Clownies are winners of 7 straight ATS, and 8 of last 9.

    • Kamov

      PESSIMIST for saying the world’s gonna end before the playoff march to our 1st Superbowl.

      • Beeej

        I’m saying that if the Browns are headed towards the Super Bowl, then the only assumption we can make is that the world is going to end. Karma, Chief Wahoo, Cleveland, and all the rest.

      • Chris P.

        I thought we had a fighting shot when the Super Bowl was in Detroit. Seemed like an obvious place for our first one.

  • ClevelandFrowns

    Credit where it’s due: The Trent Richardson helmet pop run was awesome.

    • http://www.autismspeaks.org/ PML

      Agreed – hopefully the line remembers they are supposed to be good and gives him some lanes to get those pistons churning next week.

      • bupalos

        Yeah I know everyone’s in the dumps on Weeden, but at least I had a sneaking suspicion he was terrible. The O-line on the other hand…they created maybe three holes (if you squinted just right) all day.

        I’d still trade Weeden for Decastro, even after the blown out knee.

        • ClevelandFrowns

          How hard would the Steelers laugh if they were offered that trade?

          • bupalos

            Amazing but true.

    • dubbythe1

      still feel he shouldnt of played yet. we will see. what did he average, 2 yards per carry? sheesh, well at least he can lower the boom.

  • http://twitter.com/clevezirm Jordan Zirm

    5 yards a carry is not good. 456 yards of offense is not good. But the lack of credit you’re giving the defense is ridiculously unfair. The Eagles had the ball for 35:58, over half of the game 11 more minutes then the Browns. And yet, the Browns defense was relentless possession after possession, getting in Vick’s face, putting him on the ground, putting him on the run (where his inaccuracy led to overthrows and poor decisions which led to interceptions). Also, there were multiple plays when Vick had a perfect pocket, had time, couldn’t find anyone open in the secondary, and was forced to make a poor throw into triple or double coverage. But there is no mention of that in your recap. Sure, if the Eagles has used the ground game a bit more, perhaps they would have broken through, although I love this line that you slide in there, “So it’s not just that remotely sober play calling by Reid would have resulted in an Eagles blowout” like it’s a set in stone fact.

    While the Browns defense collapsed in classic Browns fashion on the only real drive that mattered, to chalk up their 5 turnover, pressure filled afternoon as nothing is just ridiculous. If we had a quarterback that could find the end zone ONE TIME or any semblance of a pro offense at all, we win that game going away. But for a defense who was back on the field seemingly every five minutes, I’m going to give credit where credit is due.

    • ClevelandFrowns

      Yes, there was pressure on the Eagles offense, much of it created by their own playcalling. Until they woke up and started to run the ball.

      I might not know much about football, but one thing I know for sure about it is that a defense that gives up 5 yards per carry is a terrible defense.

      I’m sorry that I didn’t mention that the Browns had Eagles receivers covered on a few plays. What else did I miss?

    • ClevelandFrowns

      “I love this line that you slide in there…like it’s a set in stone fact.”

      LOL so mad. So opinions are out of bounds here now I guess. OK. I’ll just note that this particular opinion happens to be supported by a 5+ yard per carry average and a 23/83 run/pass ratio.

  • BigDigg

    On a positive note – this was easily Colt’s best day as a pro.

  • p_forever

    vick has been wanting to get out of cleveland ever since the brownies truly *heroic* win over the falcons in late december 2002.

    but yes. he was atrocious yesterday. but still not half as bad as weedon.

    sigh sigh sigh sigh sigh.

    “golden-armed redhead”? WORST EPITHET EVER.

  • BIKI024

    The QB pressures was definitely a sight for sore eyes, hopefully the fresh legs can keep it coming next week and hit the other redhead in the mouth play after play and makin the kid play scurred, just like Mike. We had our chance and blew it, but def lookin forward to next week.

  • Ess Eh

    Redskins fans are probably feeling really good this morning

    • p_forever

      i’m happy for rgIII, for sure. i feel like this also proves that holmgren and heckert would suck at cheddar bay, as they clearly don’t understand that although nothing is a sure thing, odds matter.

      at least we have a golden-armed redhead. not every team can say that.

      • Beeej

        Cinci?

        • p_forever

          yes. also the raiders.

          this means 2 of the 3 golden-armed redheads in the league face each other next weekend. get ready for another proud moment in brownie history.

          • Hopwin

            Oakland? Do you mean Arizona?

          • p_forever

            doesn’t carson palmer have red hair? and skelton and kolb both have brown hair. but i might be missing something? maybe you mean the “golden-armed” epithet is equally ironic if applied to either of them.

        • p_forever
      • actovegin1armstrong

        I guess it is only a guy thing, but I am always lamenting that it is a recessive, single locus allele with less than 4% of our current population worldwide and it shall eventually disappear.
        Less than 4%, but at least 80% of the women I have chosen to inflict my society upon, (Wodehouse again).
        I have always been such a sucker for fiery redheads with alabaster skin. Freckles too and I am completely hooked.
        Do women suffer from the same malady p_4?

        • p_forever

          Hmmm – when paired with a rocket arm, yes.

          Lol. A lady never tells, acto.

          • actovegin1armstrong

            Most of my friends are women and they do “tell”.
            Between 6 older sisters and a bunch of ex’s/good friends; I have heard more girl talk than every pillow on earth.
            I have a rocket arm, but I have brown hair and I bear a striking resemblance to Cro-Magnon man.

          • bupalos

            JESUS. Is no one policing this???!

            COOL IT!!!!!

          • p_forever

            Mostly I was just trying to avoid a “cool it” – I suppose it came off as coy, but I promise it wasn’t meant that way.

            With respect to your cro magnon looks, I say play to your strengths – maybe you can call yourself ice man? (Ha.)

    • ChuckKoz

      and i am pretty sure about half the commenters on this site that claimed we shouldn’t go all in and go get RG3 are felling pretty dumb this morning.

      • BIKI024

        he looked good, but against a depleted Saints defense.. we’ll see how he does when the competition stiffens up, especially in the division. My concern was never about his ability, because he def can play, but more about if he will be able to survive the hits. he’s one Damarcus Ware hit away from a few broken ribs and out for the season.

        • acto

          I think what Biki thinks.
          Still glad that RG3 is not a Brownie.

        • Jim

          Most quarterbacks are “one Damarcus Ware hit away from a few broken ribs and out for the season.” Plus it’s not like the Browns spent their 1st round pick on a player that was injury-free.

  • Chris P.

    OFFENSIVE SECRETS STILL SAFE

    • Beeej

      I’ve seen this comment 10 tens today and laughed every time. Well done!

      • bupalos

        I like it so much I’m going to like yours for liking it. That’s how much I like it.

        • ClevelandFrowns

          I’ll raise you.

          #ShurmurballSupportGroup

  • Biff

    The dumpster fire picture should be the official logo of the 2012 Cleveland Browns. I can’t overstate how perfect it is.

  • Jim

    According to Jason Lloyd, Weeds’ 5.1 QB rating was the worst for a Browns quarterback in four years.

    The worst part about that fact is that there has been a Browns quarterback in recent memory that had a worse performance than what the golden-armed ginger did yesterday.

    The run game was likewise terrible. Richardson seemed rusty and the offensive line could not open up anything.

    • golanbatrac

      Fun Fact For the Week: Weedens’ QB rating is 8/100 of a point higher than his career ERA.

    • BigDigg

      Double-ouch here – Jeff Garcia posted a 0.0 QB rating as a member of the Cleveland Browns. Jeff Garcia is also a ginger. I think we may be on to something here…

      • nj0

        This was my first thought.

        Sept. 19, 2004

      • wiseoldredbeard

        Back off, dude. We also have magic.

        • bupalos

          how was the crowd WORB? They seemed fairly juiced on TV for most of it.

          • ClevelandFrowns

            WORB was at a bar in DC. I was at the game. The crowd was juiced in the 3rd quarter and was naturally insane after DQ’s TD. Things were relatively quiet on the Eagles’ game winning drive, though. Folks have been conditioned, unfortunately.

          • wiseoldredbeard

            I was at a bar in DC — the fact that this is widely known both frightens and pleases me (unless Frownie is keeping tabs on me, in which case it only pleases me). I will be in town for the Bills game, however, so get ready to rumble!

            PS to those ginger haters out there — the fact that you’ve failed to make a firebush/dumpsterfire joke is pathetic.

          • ClevelandFrowns

            I’ve got eyes and ears all over the streetz. Ask PML.

      • p_forever

        i posted it below, but maybe you missed it – wrt the search for good red-headed qb’s: http://kissingsuzykolber.uproxx.com/2011/04/the-search-for-the-greatest-ginger-quarterback-of-all-time.html

  • Chris P.

    Not a big Grantland fan over on ESPN…

    but their wrapup column had a nice little hitpiece on Shurmur’s not going for two with the awesome wrap-up line…

    “Situational play-calling tends to be overrated in terms of judging a coach’s total effectiveness, but Shurmur’s decision was so bad that it raises fundamental questions about his core competency.”

    • Beeej

      You ever get the feeling that if it went to overtime Shumur would take the wind?

      • Chris P.

        oh yeah… well I think Morninghweg would at least learn from a mistake so inane. With Marty, at least I can attribute that mistake to “overthinking.” I’m not so sure the Shurmur mistakes involve any thought at all.

        Morninghweg > Shurmur

        The more we see it in action the more the Shurmur hire directly reflects on the people who hired him. When we had mangini AND holmgren AND heckert, I loved the idea of the best and brightest of two different schools of thought having these high minded discussions and arguments about personnel and strategies…

        but instead we just axed the best and brightest and replaced him with sycophants.

        We have a coach who is a 0 out of 10 on the coach skill set.

        Yet we have a much better guy on staff. one who has proven that he can be a 1 or 2 out of 10.

        DRAFT CHILDRESS NOW. HE ISN’T WORSE.

        • Kamov

          NO. Jauron for backup coach. Hear that PD? Backup coach controversy! Get on it!

          • Chris P.

            LOVE button again.

            Jauron’s a little higher end than I’m thinking. But I’m in.

          • ClevelandFrowns

            I’m in too but only if we are assuming backup coach gets canned at the end of the season as well.

          • Chris P.

            The thing is, if your dumpster is on fire, why not toss in a little napalm?

            In all seriousness, the bigger the cluster this year, the better the situation for a complete Haslam housecleaning. A late season firing is too risky. See, if we’re, say 2-10 or soemthing, and Childress/Jauron come in and we finish the season 2-2 – there’s a real chance that person could be retained.

            So this dumpsternapalm needs to be laid down now.

          • ClevelandFrowns

            Got to respect a man who puts his avi where his mouth is.

            BRRRRRRRRRRRRRR IS ANYONE ELSE FEELING CHILLY IN HERE?

    • bupalos

      I’m the first one to frag coaches for getting the numbers wrong, but with basically a whole quarter left, that wasn’t a horrible decision as far as these things go. Mildly bad, I’d say, but not horrible.

      • ClevelandFrowns

        I’m with bup here. There was plenty of time for the Eagles to kick two field goals at that point. What Barnwell wrote is sort of insane. http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/8361407/the-niners-run-green-bay-rest-notable-news-week-1-nfl

        • Chris P.

          oh clearly it’s a hitpiece, it reminds me of one of those know it all people like in baseball who like to prat on about how the bunt decreases your win percentage .03% or whatever. at some point, even if you’re mathematically correct, the fact that everyone does it kinda wins out.

          but but but but but…. i haven’t really gotten around to my overall point, and probably won’t here, because it’s a poorly thought out thing that would devolve into one of my rants… but my basic thesis is this:

          no matter what individual aspect of the game you look at, no matter what is important to you, coaching, playcalling, motivation, basic training, time management, understanding of when you can and cannot use a challenge, etc, etc… it doesn’t matter what area.. in every one of those areas we are substandard. it’s not even like this is mike tice and you can say, “well, he looks very manly in a headset”

      • nj0

        With you as well. People act like two FGs were an impossibility.

        • Chris P.

          um, have you been following anything?

          these are the eagles? our philosophical forebearers?

          who thinks touchdowns more??

    • BIKI024

      not sure how many NFL coaches would go for 2 with nearly a quarter to play. shoulda coulda woulda, but this guy is going way overboard on Shurmur.

      • ClevelandFrowns

        For all the things that actually do raise “fundamental questions about Shurmur’s core competency,” this sure does seem like a silly one to focus on.

        • jpftribe

          Agreed. How about trying to run out the clock at the end of the first half with 1:40 to go and the Eagles having three timeouts.

          He was happy to go in the locker room tied 3-3, playing not to lose always equals losses.

          • bupalos

            Sort of agree, except, if weeden doesn’t throw a stinker of a flat pass and/or marecic just catches a ball that’s a little off, it works fine and we win.

  • GrandRapidsRustlers

    You have a lot of time to think on the Indiana turnpike while listening to the game.

    The defense is the least of the problems that this team has. You can argue about yards and play calling and situations all that you want but at the end of the day they did not get a stop when they had to.

    That being said this game should have been over after 3 quarters.

    Shurmur is so far over his head that it is mind boggling just to watch him on the sidelines and hear him after games. Childress will be coaching soon.

    • ClevelandFrowns

      If Weeds only could have thought a FG there in the end.

      • GrandRapidsRustlers

        He just has not been here long enough yet…

        It takes more than 10 practices to have the FG drilled into your head.

  • BIKI024

    Yes, allowing 5+ per run was clearly not one of the positives, yet we gave ourselves a chance to win in spite of that. Hopefully as the rookies continue to develop the run defense will improve. As bas as Run D was, there are several other key stats that definitely kept us in the game:

    1. Holding Philly, who averaged 30+ points a game in their last 4 games last season to 17 points, 7th lowest with 4 teams left to play.

    2. 11 QB hits, #1 in NFL, 3 more than the #2 team, resulting in 2 sacks (tied for 11th). The constant pressure we kept on Vick was the reason he was so scurred out there. We bring that kind of pressure every week this could be fun.

    3. 4 interceptions: tied with Philly for #1 in NFL, 2nd highest has 2 picks. Shoulda coulda woulda, but god damn how sweet would be if we’re sitting here talking about an ugly win if LJ catches the 5 INT of the game, his 2nd!?! man, so damn close.

    4. 2 Forced fumbles (tied for #1 in NFL), 1 recovery (should’ve been 2 recoveries, that clearly was a mistake by the ref on the field, no way Vick had possession of that ball, saw the replay over and over and over.

    5. only 3 penalties for 35 yards. that’s actually very impressive given how many young guys we have on the team.

    • ClevelandFrowns

      “only 3 penalties for 35 yards”

      I’d be interested in seeing a chart of the home/away penalty splits for the replacement refs yesterday.

  • rodofdisaster

    In the interest of full-disclosure, I haven’t been able to watch the whole game yet. What I have seen however could fill a week’s worth of posts.

    To my eye, I can’t really bang on the defense as harshly as you are here Frownie. Yes, some stats (5 ypc is NOT good) aren’t good but the bottom line is that they were physical and they only gave up 10 points through the first 58-ish minutes. That sort of physical play is paramount in the AFC North. I would qualify my thoughts though to point out that Andy Reid’s insistence on passing over running helped keep the Browns in this game.

    One could argue that the defense didn’t lose this game. One could also argue that, when they needed it most, they couldn’t make a stop in the fourth quarter (and therefore did lose the game).

    I would be far less concerned about the Browns’ defense and far more concerned about the coaching decisions and the offense. First off, I find it ridiculous that Shurmur would not go for two. That’s so basic and disgusting. Second, Weeden. Oh my God. Where to begin. Clearly he busted his butt for 10 whole practices before being named starter. Good to know he had fun.

    <>

    • BIKI024

      say what you want about Colt, but the dude protected the ball, no way he has 4 picks in that game. we kick a FG or get 6 instead of Greg Little deflecting that ball to the Eagles inside the 5 and we’re sitting here enjoying being 1-0 for the first time in forever. but if my aunt had balls she’d be my uncle.

      • rodofdisaster

        I don’t want to start into “Colt vs Weeden” but performances like yesterday’s from Weeden will certainly fuel that fire. I think that “extremely marginal” play from the QB would have won that game yesterday.

        Today, I’ve read from MKC about how Weeden’s receivers didn’t help him. Well, guess what? If we weren’t about to allow McCoy latitude based on those excuses last year, we can’t give Weeden those excuses now.

        • BIKI024

          so you think Weeden should have a short leash? how many poor performances in a row would you allow him?

          • ClevelandFrowns

            Very few quarterbacks in league history have ever had a game as bad as Weeden did last week. If he does it two weeks in a row? Three?

          • Some Guy

            Obviously we’ll have to get new receivers. Duh.

          • rodofdisaster

            Biki, I guess everyone will have their own answer to that. If next week looks like this week did then I would call him “overmatched” or at least “not ready” and bring in McCoy.

            As bad as parts of this team were yesterday, they lost the game because of Weeden’s ineffective play. If you’re playing for your collective jobs then you can’t be giving away games like yesterday.

    • Chris P.

      Childress goes for two.

      I love it. Brad Childress is one of the worst NFL coaches in the last 20 years, YET HE’S BETTER THAN WHAT WE HAVE…

      AND WE’RE ALREADY PAYING HIM

      • ClevelandFrowns

        Chilly sure had that offense humming yesterday. It’s amazing what this team of quarterback gurus has accomplished.

        • Chris P.

          I use the like button, but sometimes you need a love button.

          They’re so successful at understanding how to stop quarterbacks and an offense from succeeding you think they wouldn’t need a defensive coordinator.

        • dubbythe1

          too many cooks spoil the pot.

          • Chris P.

            as do poor ingredients.

            and lousy cooks.

          • ClevelandFrowns

            as do really bad cooks.

      • https://twitter.com/jimkanicki jimkanicki

        liked for your fabulous new avatar.

  • http://twitter.com/JRichTCF Jeff Rich

    I do particularly enjoy that the #DUMPSTERFIRE (the term being a personal favorite) seems to have supplemented, if not replaced, the Holmgren-In-A-Cast-On-A-Golf-Cart-Drinking-A-Pink-Daiquiri stock photo on this site. It’s a welcome change.

    • wiseoldredbeard

      I think Holmgren’s daiquiri was orange, to match his cast and the color of my vomit yesterday.

  • Bryan

    A radical thought just hit me: Jimmy Haslam respects Bob Kraft. Bob Kraft respects Eric Mangini. Eric Mangini lives in Cleveland. Eric Mangini is arguably the best unemployed coach in the business.

    If the Indians remove Chief Wahoo this offseason and Mangini is re-installed as head coach next year by Haslam I think Frowns will have to shut down this blog, as its mission will be complete.

    #ReinstallManginiFollowBobKraftAndTheHoodie

    • ClevelandFrowns

      That is not a radical thought but merely the only reasonable course of action for Haslam to take.

    • wiseoldredbeard

      Did anyone see Haslam at the game yesterday? I’d like some first hand knowledge on how pissed off he looked. If it was anywhere near as pissed off as I looked stumbling home, Shurmur will not make it through the season…

      • technivore

        Grossi tweeted that he looked “not happy” or something like that after the game. And that he sat in on Shurmur’s post-game presser as well, which I think is great.

        • wiseoldredbeard

          Good. Holmgren’s cuddly hand holding needed to end ASAP.

        • jpftribe

          This might be the best news to come out of that game.

  • nj0

    This praise for the defense kind of reminds me of Indians fans talk circa late June.

    Many (myself included) were gushing about their record while people-who-pay-attention-to-those-sorts-of-things kept pointing to their run differential and noting that things would get bad quickly if play didn’t improve.

    I’m not smart enough to provide any insightful analysis on the quality of the Browns defensive play this Sunday, but I do know that you’re not going to win many games giving up 456 yards of offense and you’re also not going to be able to produce five turnovers every week.

    • NeedsFoodBadly

      It’s worth noting that Michael Vick isn’t exactly a paragon of quarterbacking accuracy.

      • Yahmule

        Nor a paragon of anything else.

    • bupalos

      The 456 yards against 17(!) possessions is actually a pretty good number. A lot of stats in that game for the defense (both positive and negative) are heightened by how bad the offense(s) was/were.

      • ClevelandFrowns

        That’s fair.

      • nj0

        True. I guess I just don’t feel any more confident about the defense than I did Sunday morning.

        It was such an odd game. I doubt we see that kind of run/pass ratio again this season. The turnovers, Philly’s penalties… It was just such a wacky, odd game that don’t feel like drawing any serious conclusions from it.

        So I’m still as concerned about this defense as I was before hand.

        • ClevelandFrowns

          “It was just such a wacky, odd game that don’t feel like drawing any serious conclusions from it. So I’m still as concerned about this defense as I was before hand.”

          Exactly how I feel.

        • bupalos

          Can’t say I feel very confident about it, either. But green shoots are green shoots. I think we could have 3 pro-bowlers on the defense and a lot of stuff that looked like filler seems potentially competent.

          • ClevelandFrowns

            3 Pro Bowlers???

          • bupalos

            DQ, Sheard, Haden.

            I could see it. Like pat, I see things.

          • wiseoldredbeard

            Uh oh, Haden now ineligible because he needs PED’s to stay awake to gamble in Vegas. Good loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooord help me.

          • ClevelandFrowns

            Pretty sure the PEDs are for the fivesomes, in his defense.

          • actovegin1armstrong

            Bupa must mean “pro-bowlers” as in Pete Weber.

  • nj0

    What I find funny in hindsight is that an average QB performance for either side results in a lopsided win. NFL is kind of screwy.

  • NeedsFoodBadly

    “We have a team here that battles. That’s the starting point. I think we could have said that about the team last year, which is a credit to the guys in the locker room. There were a lot of mistakes. I’m sure there were a lot of rookie mistakes out there, but the guys battled, and I think that’s important.”

    Is this the Shurmuriest thing Shurmur has ever said?

    I think you DID say that the team battled last year, Pat. Good effort.

    • BIKI024

      for pete’s sake, what exactly do you expect the coach to say??? do you disagree that the team battled? it seems to me they battled a lot harder than most of the people on this blog expected, yet they still find ways to spew their hate for the team/coach, good grief. the browns obviously had a pretty good defensive gameplan, the offensive gameplan seemed solid too as there were many wide open looks that Weeden just flat out missed.

    • Kamov

      That is genuine and he has never said he’d be anything but genuine.

    • dubbythe1

      OMG super liked!!!!

  • Cranky M

    This is one of the silliest things i’ve ever seen you write, Frownie.

    Do you think that maybe, just maybe, they gave up so many yards because the offense couldn’t get a first down and left them on the field the entire game?
    Or that maybe being on the field the entire game wore them out, seeing as how they are human beings and all, and they were tired on that last (heart-breaking) drive?
    No? We’re just going to pretend like the defense didn’t play well? That makes sense.

  • BIKI024

    this is a NON-CHEDDAR play, but FWIW, word on the street is that some of the sharps that friends of mine know are all over the Ravens tonight.

  • BIKI024

    the special teams unit was pretty solid, they had the 10th lowest average yards allowed on returns, while having the 10th highest return average. Hodges is a stud, and of course Phil was ca$hmoney.

  • Dino

    On Eagles last drive they ran 16 plays of which four were designed runs, one of those on a fourth and one. That’s the same run/pass ratio they employed throughout the entire game. You can look at stats all you want, the defense just didn’t get them out on third down on that drive. If you want to say that was a below average performance because Philly averaged 5 yards a carry, that’s fine. But to me, their job is to get the ball back to the offense as soon as possible in the best field position possible. They did that throughout the entire game with the exception of the drives at the end of the game and first half. Next week, if Cinn. runs it down our throats and controls the game, I will bitch about the run defense. Despite the stats, the run game for Philly did not control this game. They can only defend what Philly does on offense and they did that pretty well.

    • ClevelandFrowns

      Of course I can’t argue with the fact that the run game for Philly did not control this game. The question is about why that’s the case, and the point here is that there’s all kinds of evidence that that has more to do with stupid things the Eagles did than with good things the Browns did. That includes the idiotic run/pass ratio. Also note that on the drive before the last one the Eagles ran 5 times on 10 plays. So almost half of their rushing attempts came in the 4th quarter. Anyway, of course we’ll know more after the Bengals game.

      • Chris P.

        I’ve got a few Eagles friends (that’s different than ‘some of my best friends are eagles people’, FWIW) but they universally detest this pass/run ratio employed in Philadelphia, and they (in the past) have told me this 3-1 thing is fairly typical. Reid just passes constantly.

        It’s likely Jauron planned for that. So I’ll give them credit there. I don’t feel comfortable with our run defense, but until we run into a pass/run balanced team, I don’t feel like I can make a real strong statement on that

        • Yahmule

          A few years ago, Reid went an entire season with a pass/run ratio of 63% to 37%.

  • BIKI024

    Per deadspin, this was 3 of the 21 errors they counted by the replacement refs:

    Both teams took equal punishment from referee Kent Roan and his crew. Here’s Roan penalizing the wrong player for being offside, an extremely simple penalty but a mistake that wasn’t corrected (thus being a permanent, and unfair, mark against Winn’s record).

    More seriously, though, the Browns missed out at what should have been another opportunity to score a touchdown—one that would have given them a victory—when an Eagles player jumped offside during a Phil Dawson field goal attempt without drawing a flag.

    This is the worst blunder, though. After a Michael Vick fumble on third and short—with the Eagles driving in an attempt to score a game-winning TD—Browns coach Pat Shurmur tried to challenge the play’s result. But Vick had been called down on forward progress, which can only be challenged in the end zone. It took Roan’s crew nearly six minutes to figure that out.

    • ClevelandFrowns

      Key words: “Both teams took equal punishment from referee Kent Roan and his crew.”

      • BIKI024

        yet the 2 examples he gave were ref ineptness that favored the Eagles.

      • actovegin1armstrong

        It looked like Vick got the ball back on that play.
        What did you kids see?
        I was watching on my phone.

  • Metcalfupthemiddle

    This game kind of reminds me of the 9-6 opener in ’03 vs Indy. Sure we held Manning to 213 yards and 2 INT’s and the defense looked great, but at the end of the day a loss is a loss. It was a very encouraging sign, but ultimately didn’t foreshadow anything besides another losing season. The Browns didn’t end up with a top D or one of the better passing defenses.

    The good teams win games such as this past Sunday. We are young and hopefully with time they can learn to pull out these games. But one has to wonder what the outcome would of been with even below average play from the QB position…

  • Defenestration

    Dear Mr. Weeden,

    I am writing to you in order to bring your attention to a great plague that infects the city in which you are employed. Many of the athletes before you have been silent about it, too cowardly to take a stand – not wanting to ruffle feathers. I believe it is in your best interest to bring attention to this great tragedy. It became blatantly clear before the start of Sunday’s football contest that The Curse of Chief Wahoo had chosen you as the physical body through which it destroys Cleveland’s championship hopes. There is absolutely no other explanation as to how a professional athlete, (one who plays a position in which awareness and decision making are paramount to success, mind you) ends up trapped beneath Old Glory. I therefore implore you to take a stand against the embarrassing mascot of the Cleveland Indians. Your action in this matter is expected to bestow upon you the good graces of the “benevolent metaphysical order” and the professional success associated with it. Your success in leading the charge for the removal of Chief Wahoo would assuredly culminate with the phrase “Super Bowl MVP Brandon Weeden” being bandied about all along the North Coast. Thank you for your prompt attention to this matter.

    Lovies,
    Those who watch you play

  • bupalos

    Took a second look at the game. Floaters and sinkers:

    rising:

    billy winn. 6th round pick looks like he could have gone in the 1st. Run and pass. Could be a Rubin-like asset.

    Frostee. He got held 3 times in the first quarter and a half, only one called. Good motor, seems to care, looks like a great acquisition. Watching the Bengals game at the same time and can’t help wondering what they were thinking. Oh yeah, Mike Brown. I forgot.

    jauron- dialed up some very surprising blitzes. didn’t go hog wild with them ala that fat wild man, just mixed them in very nicely. EXCEPT… two plays that got them 7 before the half make no sense, I’d like to see rod look at the second– I can’t figure any of it out. There is definitely confusion here.

    Ward- played very fast with a nose for the ball on the blitz

    Sheard- seems to be a little faster and stronger than everyone up against him thinks.

    Haden – stock can’t really rise with me bc I think he’s as good as anyone on the corner. Great snatch on the int. 3 or 4 tackles more than a replacement would have. Did you hear from one of the best WR’s in the NFL? Not really.

    LB discipline. I credit DQ, he seems to be taking on the role of player-coach.

    dropping stock-

    There is NEVER a reason for marecic to be on the field instead of jackson. NEVER. RB Jackson is a better FB than FB marecic. Blogger Frowns is a better FB than FB marecic. CUT BAIT HE SUCKS!

    Weeden. it was worse than it looked. All of his completions were one look slants. Might as well have been clay pidgeons. All. The only hope is that everything that was horrible and damaging was an overthrow. Maybe he was just amped? It’s bad. It’s bad. He isn’t playing NFL football. It’s bad.

    Thomas. Yup. Thomas. He had a bad game. Not a bad game for Joe. A bad game. NO movement in the running game and guys just flat ran around him twice.

    Richardson. I thought the line just failed, but he freelanced to poor effect twice. One of the short yardage plays he would have made it following the script and he cut it into traffic instead. No preseason, he’s excused, but didn’t look good.

    Replacement refs. Watch it closely, they let holding go WAY more than the regulars and called a few weird ones. Impressed they caught the pick play in the 1st quarter on the Iggles (regs missed that bad last year v. titans,) but they blew a lot more than I thought in live action. The missed offsides on the FG is as bad as it gets. PI on Haden was total phantom. This is going to blow up on the NFL at some point.

    • rodofdisaster

      Bup-

      I’m not sure which play you’re talking about. Is it the deep ball completed to Maclin with :30 left?

      • bupalos

        Actually that one seems pretty straightforward, safety is slow coming over and the pass is picture perfect. The TD just looks like a total mess. After watching it again, Joe gets spun around horribly, looks like he must think he can gamble outside and get help in, and there are a ton of guys chasing the play with no one to cover. It’s almost like we lined up 5 linebackers and no safety.

        • rodofdisaster

          I’ve already written up the other play. I will do something short on that play too.

  • Leftyjsf

    I noticed that Richardson was the only RB to get carries yesterday. Would have liked to see Jackson and even Monturrible get touches given Richardson had no preseason games.

    It will be like Christmas for me when we fire Shurmur.

  • http://tinyurl.com/95wmsh8/@v3br3y 3izpy2Elite

    Automated High-Quality Multi-Level Link Building !
    http://www.clevelandfrowns.com/
    jz3fv3bz1fvl

  • Alexb

    having been at the game i feel a bit miffed about how the defense is being portrayed here today. I get it, there was alot of offense put up by the eagles…on paper it looked like they walked all over the browns defense. Wrong!

    The running game picked up for them well into the 2nd half…..how long was the browns defense on the field at that point? we looked up at the time of possession stats and they were appalling. The eagles threw 60 times and ran 25…that’s an absurd amount of plays. Give the defense a fucking break they were on the field constantly and they were constantly in Vicks face. Dquell is really fast btw…..it’s not as obvious on the tv but live, he’s moving faster than anyone else in the box and Vick knew it. Never seen the corners get cut off on Vick better, dquell looked like he was on a different food chain.

    We also tackled…like made open field tackles and stopped people on the first try. I haven’t seen the Browns tackle like that since Jamir Miller was playing for us. I really saw some good shit out there from the defense. They were “hitting”. If this becomes a habit we may see the emergence of a new AFC North power defense.

    I also saw one thing i’ve never seen before…defense guys running out to the huddle and gettin in the O’s face. They knew they were playing their asses off and all we needed was one more score, a field goal would have done it. The browns held one of the best O’s in football to 17 points give them some credit.

    We also stuffed one of the best pass rushes in football, Weeden had all fucking day to throw a decent pass and couldn’t. <—-not encouraging.

  • munasrevenge

    Does a 5.1 even do justice to how bad Weeden looked? Not a huge fan of ESPN’s self-serving QB ratings, but they gave Weeden a 1.2, which seems a bit closer to the mark. There needs to be a system with negative numbers.

    I need to restock my liquor.

Previous post:

Next post: