Can’t lose ‘em all: Browns bust bumbling Bengals for first win in 329 days

by Cleveland Frowns on October 15, 2012

“It felt like we won the Super Bowl, honestly.”Joe Haden

“Words cannot even explain right now how I feel.”Trent Richardson

“Sunday’s victory felt like maybe they finally got this party started.” — Mary Kay Cabot

“The joy of winning relieves whatever.”Pat Shurmur

—————

Slaughter the fatted calf. The Cleveland Browns are 1-5.

Pat Shurmur matched wits with Marvin Lewis for four quarters yesterday, and from a cascade of turnovers and three-and-outs the orange helmets without stripes emerged with their first win of the season, their first in twelve games, and first since November 20, 2011.

On the second play of the second quarter yesterday, and for the second time in as many weeks, Brandon Weeden and Josh Gordon made the opposing defense pay for guarding the rookie receiver with a linebacker, this time with a 71-yard touchdown pass. For the rest of the first three quarters, the Browns offense was typically unwatchable, and actually historically bad.

The Browns went three-and-out on seven drives yesterday, which, according to ESPN Stats and Information, ties them for the most by any team in a single game this season and the most the Browns have had in a single game in the last 10 years. And the seven three-and-outs doesn’t count the two “three-and-kick” drives that ended in Phil Dawson field goals after starting deep in Bengals territory thanks to a Joe Haden interception and long Josh Cribbs punt return, respectively. Those two field goals happened in a stretch of seven consecutive drives in the second and third quarter in which the Browns didn’t make a single first down.

To the credit of the defense, playing without stalwart defensive tackle Ahtyba Rubin, the Bengals offense couldn’t make much of the Browns historic offensive lull, consistently failing to sustain drives themselves despite outgaining their counterparts by more than 100 yards on the day. By about half-way through the fourth quarter, the Bengals started to crack under the pressure of knowing they’d let the Browns hang around for too long in a game that they had to have. Montario Hardesty started to find room in the defense to help give the Browns a ten-point lead, and Sheldon Brown jumped an Andy Dalton slant to return an interception for a touchdown that looked to put the game on ice.

But a 57-yard A.J. Green touchdown and another Browns three-and-out later, the Bengals took a twenty-yard punt return and six plays to get to the Browns 9-yard line, looking to close within a field goal with two-and-a-half minutes left to play. It looked like a meltdown was inevitable, but then Emmanuel Stephens made a play, stripping Dalton for a fumble that was recovered by Billy Winn to seal the game for good.

Of course, when you’re 0-5, any win is a big win. When you can avoid setting a new franchise record for futility just two days before the new owner takes over, a big win is even bigger. Or at least it will feel that way.

But before any kind of legitimate “party” gets under way, the Browns will have to establish themselves to be at least as much as a consistent mediocrity first. Pulling to 1-5 with a win over the stumbling Bengals doesn’t get them there, or really even close. According to ESPN’s advanced Total QBR metric, Brandon Weeden has been the worst quarterback in the NFL this season by a country mile, even with consistently good protection from his offensive line. And our resident quarterback gurus needed two long kick returns and three turnovers from the defense to survive yesterday’s three-and-out fest.

The Cleveland Browns are 1-5, and it’s probably best to keep the champagne corked for now. Colts next week, and we’ll see about a winning streak.

  • BIKI024

    So you’re tellin me there’s a chance

    • Shadow_play

      There’s a 50-50 chance of winning next week, but only a 10% chance of that.

      • BIKI024

        Clowns +3 baby! might have to invest in the ML as well. here we go Clownies here we go!

        • Petefranklin

          Much like the Browns, the J-E-T-S were due.

          • BIKI024

            they are 3-3 and got some much needed relief from getting Stephen Hill and Keller back. and Sparano remembered to use the RB again.

            hopefully Paddy and Chilly take a cue and smash it down that weak Colts run defense (yes, they are even worse than the Clowns allowing 5 yards per attempt)

          • Petefranklin

            So we can all look forward to 60 passes by Weeden then I guess. Sounds promising(running) though.

          • Believelander

            The Jets suck. That is all.

      • Believelander

        90% of the game is half mental?

        • actovegin1armstrong

          When you come to a fork in the road, take it.

    • ClevelandFrowns

      Seems like Colts, Raiders, Chiefs and Skins should be winnable games. Maybe they steal one or two of the others? Over 4.5 wins, and just enough to keep us from getting the player we really need in the draft is 100% in play.

      • BIKI024

        and who is that player? Geno? Barkley (another mediocre game for him). if you take away that atrocious first game for Weeden, he’s doing pretty good for a rook with an inexperienced and makeshift WR corps.

        last 5 games:
        60% completion
        7.15 ypa
        7TDs/6INTs
        83.5 rating

        last 2 games:
        61% completion
        8.16 ypa
        4 TDs 3 INT
        86 Rating

        obviously he still needs to do much better, but it seems perfectly reasonable to be optimistic that with more reps and continuity with the receiving corp that his numbers should improve as the season goes along.

        in addition, it seems to me that KC and JAX will be much more desperate for a QB than we will be and will probably do whatever it takes to get either of those guys i think you may be referring to.

        • ClevelandFrowns

          He doesn’t make winning plays for this team. He does the opposite. Look at his QBR. Also, three members of this “makeshift” WR crew are second-round picks.

          • BIKI024

            yeah but they are 1st and 2nd year players.. we all know how long you feel it takes for these guys to develop. MoMass was hurt, and 2 other guys who have contributed this season were also out (Norwood and TB).

          • NeedsFoodBadly

            I am curious about who you think we should take with our first pick, Frowns – do you think QB is the position for the player we really need?

          • http://twitter.com/r_vernon Richmond Vernon

            Whoever it is, Frowns will hate him by week 3.

          • GJ

            Frowns, based on your assessment of Tom Heckert, it seems contradictory to then defend the play of WRs solely because they “are second round picks.”

          • BIKI024

            especially since he was such a staunch defender of Mangini’s 2nd round selections of MoMass and Robiskie their first 2 years.. “it takes 2-3 years for WR’s to develop!”

          • ClevelandFrowns

            It’s hard to get too down on Heckert given the constraints he works under. The WRs aren’t the problem with this football team.

          • http://www.facebook.com/bodnar.paul Paul Bodnar

            Tim Couch and William Green were first round picks, doesn’t mean they played like it. Weeden did have a strong drive in there, made some key third down conversion throws and hit the TD to Gordon. He’s not Aaron Rodgers but he is 6 games in.

          • Believelander

            Ohhhhhh right they’re second round picks, two of which played a total of 1 season apiece in college – one a 2nd year player with stone hands and the other a rookie. I’m going to quote my friend Frowns who pounded the pulpit about how receivers really come into their own in the third season – or at least he used to when it wasn’t inconvenient to leading an insane crusade of negativity.

            The third second round draft pick, of course, has missed a month of games, but please tell us more about meaningless QBR and second round picks who wouldn’t start for the overwhelming majority of NFL teams and wouldn’t see the field on quite a few.

          • Cranky M

            I believe he was something like 6-for6 or 7-for-7 on one of those last scoring drives. That seems like making winning plays, to me.

          • BIKI024

            yeah but.. there were blown coverages, and the Bengals have the worst secondary in the NFL!

          • http://twitter.com/r_vernon Richmond Vernon

            Even ESPN itself has largely abandoned QBR as a silly stat. But know ClevelandFrowns will grasp at any thing and everything that can paint the worst possible picture for the Browns.

        • Petefranklin

          So I guess KC will be the “must lose” game that the Clowns will obviously win to screw up yet another draft position.

  • http://www.facebook.com/bodnar.paul Paul Bodnar

    I disagree about Weeden. The season average stat for Weeden is incredibly misleading due to a Total QBR of 1.2 in week 1 (Rating of 5.1). First game as a rookie is a reasonable excuse. Adjusting for this, he falls somewhere in the middle of QB.

    • ClevelandFrowns

      Where are you finding these weekly QBR splits? Plenty of quarterbacks have had terrible games this season. Only one of them is mired 20 points below everyone else at the bottom of the QBR rankings. It seems like the stat is much better designed than to be one that would cause one game out of six to skew the results as much as you’re saying it is.

      • Petefranklin

        Im not sure if I find those last two stats, PAR and PAA, where weedem is so far below average, accurate.

        • ClevelandFrowns

          Do you have a reason for this or is it just what you want to believe?

      • http://www.facebook.com/bodnar.paul Paul Bodnar
        • ClevelandFrowns

          So in 4 of 6 games Weeden’s QBR has been lower than 33, which is worse than the average rate of every starting QB in the league. Even if you take out game 1 he has been terrible.

          • http://www.facebook.com/bodnar.paul Paul Bodnar

            This argument is based solely on one stat. Take out game one, and he would have a QB rating of around 85. I’m not saying right now he is a top quarterback, but I would take him over a fair number of other guys.

          • http://twitter.com/cpmack Chris M

            Off the top of my head, I’d rather have him than Cassel, Gabbert or Sanchez.

          • ClevelandFrowns

            This argument is based solely on one stat, which happens to be a stat that comprehensively measures a quarterback’s performance.

          • Cranky M

            And of course we all know that statistics are definitive and accurate in every instance. Especially esoteric statistics that nobody actually knows the details of. So Weeden is obviously the worst quarterback of all time.

            We should also remember that Weeden plays QB in a vacuum, and therefore should be judged in the same manner as veteran quarterbacks on solid teams with excellent wide receivers. QB performance should be judged exactly the same in every instance…..

          • Steve

            Actually his QB rating would be 80.8, which would be good for 24th in the league. Of course, the other 9 QBs below that mark would like you to drop their worst game too.

            Fine, I guess Cassell, Sanchez, Gabbert, and Hasselbeck make up a fair (nice use of a vague term) number. How that makes the Browns future look any brighter, I’m not sure.

          • ClevelandFrowns

            And again, we’re talking about QB rating, not QBR, which is an improvement on the QB rating system. Take away game 1 and I’m pretty sure Weeden still has the worst QBR in the league by a wide margin. Case in point, his QBR yesterday (in which his rating was 92.7) was 31.8, which is worse than the average QBR of every other starting QB in the league.

          • Steve

            Frowns – I understand the difference between the two, but have a hard time buying into QBR being that much better. ESPN won’t tell you completely how it’s calculated, and takes into account some pretty convoluted things, like how far a pass travels in the air. Great, but unless ESPN shows how the pieces fit together better, I’m going to be skeptical that they are calculating it perfectly.

            The vast majority of the people proclaiming QBR to be an improvement are the people who want you to just trust that what’s going on behind the curtain is on the up and up. Maybe it is, but as long as you’re hiding something, I’m going to be skeptical.

            Weeden’s number yesterday is low compared to his traditional QB rating because of how the leverage works in QBR. I can’t say exactly how because of the problem mentioned above. I’m sure that the interception he threw took an especially hard knock on his rating because we had first down at their 27. Teams score an average of about 3.7 points from that position, and Weeden completely wiped that out. But still, something more than “just trust us” would be helpful.

            Anyway, whether you use QBR or not, I’m scratching my head as to how people could sit here and even discuss Weeden being a middle of the road QB. Like most rookie QBs, he’s got a long way to go to adjust to The League.

          • Beeej

            At least we got rid of Brady Quinn.

          • Believelander

            No, he really hasn’t been terrible, and your insane one-sided smear campaign is terrible. Please stop insulting my team. For someone who espouses the power and responsibility of media, you sure have a funny way of championing those ideals. Of course, it’s hard to stick to something as intangible as an ethic when it’s not convenient for you.

            QBR is a meaningless stat for evaluating a quarterback, as evidenced by QBs who have been worse than Brandon Weeden who have higher QBRs.

      • Chris

        I get that being the cleveland eeyore is your schtick and all, but who in the hell actually follows QBR this side of espn? Seriously. All one need know is that the mental giant Dilfer had a hand in conceiving it. The dour tone is largely merited, but a little balance (when warranted once in a blue moon) would go a long way. Just sayin’.

      • Deputy Glitters

        Where does the fact that he’s played two and a half games in rainy, wet conditions, and one in awful wind come into play in these arguments? For what its worth, I don’t see McCoy being able to throw the ball in the wind Weeden dealt with on Sunday.

        • ClevelandFrowns

          So this is what we have to rely on to convince ourselves that Weeden hasn’t been terrible? Rainy wet conditions? The rainy wet conditions in New York didn’t seem to bother Eli Manning at all.

          • Deputy Glitters

            Terrible? You, sir, are a professional troll. Watching that Giants game, Eli had plenty of trouble with the weather, letting more than a few sail. I’d say the blown coverages (the same kind that you use to discount any success Weeden has had) and our awful run defense had more to do with Manning’s success than anything.

          • actovegin1armstrong

            I have been on the right and wrong side of the ball in rainy, wet conditions.
            The offense has the advantage!
            That advantage is especially more pronounced for the passing game.

    • Bryan

      Frowns has started to realize that Weeden has pretty good numbers (outside of week 1) so he is now focusing on series within the game and isolates statistics to discount how good Weeden’s overall numbers look. Of course, there is no mention of how Weeden went 8-10 to finish the game, and, in the process, lead us on back-to-back TD drives when the games was on the line in the 4th quarter.

      Again, Weeden is still a work in progress, but I don’t see the point in continuing to post one-sided, unbalanced analysis of his performance. Despite all the 3 and outs, Weeden averaged 8 yard per attempt again. McCoy was at 5.9 last year. This is MAJOR progress, and its why we are averaging 7 more points a game this year against a tougher schedule.

      Everyone here seems to love T-Rich (I do too). But if I kept noting that he has the 35th best yards per attempt out of the 45 RB with substantial carries without any mention of the fact that he is on a young team with a Rookie QB and mediocre WRs, and kept arguing that he was, therefore, terrible and worse than Rueben Droughns, would I have much credibility?

      • BigDigg

        Frownie reminds me of Randy Quaid’s character in Major League two sans any sense of initial optimism. Or perhaps the Republican Party after the latest unemployment figures were released.

        Watchable football is watchable football. And Progress is progress, right? I choose to be optimistic with eyes wide open. This team is pretty shitty overall, but there’s a friskiness to their terribleness that’s a stark improvement over last year.

      • ClevelandFrowns

        Aside from the fact that he leads the league in interceptions and his QBR is three times worse than the second worst quarterback in the league, he has pretty good numbers.

        It’s hard to believe how stupid this is.

        • BIKI024

          who cares about QBR??!?! there are other factors not related to the QB that goes into it, such as offensive line play and WR rating, etc.

          sure the INTs are atrocious and he needs to cut them down, but it’s hard to believe that you don’t think the kid has a chance to be good.

          but one common rating people use is quarterback rating and he’s been above 80 on 3 of 6 games.. he has a good chance of doing the same against he Colts, Ravens and Chargers as well.. we shall see

          • actovegin1armstrong

            Biki,
            I appreciate your optimism as always, but the biggest problem with Weeden is the interceptions.
            Bernie Kosar was not an amazingly talented QB, he oftentimes ran around looking like a constipated stork carrying triplets, but he had a phenomenal ability to see coverages and avoid potential interceptions.
            I was never a Brett Favre fan, mainly because he received a lot of glory for the occasional “gunslinger” victory, but he cost his team/teams throughout his career because he was oftentimes an interception prone guy.

            A DB needs to have no memory, but a QB needs to remember his mistakes and learn from them.
            I have been defending Weeden thus far, but I am now starting to see tendencies for giving up the ball that may be difficult to overcome.
            He gets “happy feet” even when he has great protection from the O-Line.

          • BIKI024

            Bernie had a 69.3 rating his first season (10 starts).

            most rookie QBs have an adjustment period to improve their “ability to see coverages and avoid potential interceptions”. heck even veteran QBs still are learning how to curb picks.

            the thing with Weeden is that people that have experience with him say he is a quick learner, so we’ll see how he is looking after his first 10 starts – 16 starts before we label him.

            let’s also give credit where credit is due. the Giants and Bills have been very good at forcing turnovers and have a monster defensive lines. I’m chalking up the Eagles game to first game jitters (and no Trent Richardson)

        • Bryan

          Got it. So all that matters is the one statistic that is overly inflated by Week 1′s anomalously horrible game (INTs), and a statistic invented by ESPN last year. All other measures of QB performance, especially those that are improving week to week, are irrelevant.

          • ClevelandFrowns

            There is absolutely no evidence that the stat is “overly” inflated by Week 1, and no reason to think that Week 1 isn’t weighted as proportionally as it should be. But again, even still, in 4 of 6 of Weeden’s games (including Sunday’s win), his QBR has been worse than the average QBR of every starting QB in the league.

            And again, QBR is by far the most advanced and comprehensive attempt to quantify a QB’s contributions to his team. To say you won’t use it because it was “invented last year” … I mean, just listen to yourself.

          • Bryan

            I like QBR, but it produces some funky results and is a complete black box (ESPN won’t tell us how they calculate it). If QBR is the only measure of performance you find worthy, then I can only assume that you agree Jake Locker is better than Drew Brees, Aaron Rodgers, and that Alex Smith and Matt Schaub are light years better than Cam Newton. I can also assume that you agree that Chad Pennington 2008 season was the 12th best single QB season since 2008. And that Jay Cutler’s 2008 season was the 19th best, and Vince Young’s the 21st best.

            The point is that, given the lack of a perfect statistic, it is usually best practice to assess performance based on an array of statistics. Hopefully those statistics all say the same thing. But when a particular QB’s performance looks substantially different using one statistic than it does using another statistic (e.g. Weeden’s QBR vs. Rating), it is misleading to focus only on the statistic that supports your argument.

          • Cranky M

            If you have so much faith in QBR, please explain to us how it works. Explain how they arrive at the number, what factors go into it, how they are weighted, etc etc.. I’m assuming you know exactly how that rating is derived, since you have so much faith in it. Since, you know, it would obviously be foolish to continually harp on an esoteric statistic that you don’t actually understand….

            In addition, despite your insistence that QBR is far and away the most accurate statistic by which to judge a QB, it is not a perfect indicator of QB play. As Bryan said below, QBR rates Jake Locker as being better than Rodgers and Brees.

            Also also, i’m sure there is some cliche about putting too much faith in one statistic while ignoring all of the rest…..

    • https://twitter.com/jimkanicki jimkanicki

      are you related to the barberton bodnars? that magics team in the 70s was awesome.

      • http://www.facebook.com/bodnar.paul Paul Bodnar

        yes, those were my uncles

        • actovegin1armstrong

          I was wondering about that when I saw your name.
          I played some summer league ball against the “Terrible Twins” in 1976 or 77.

          Welcome aboard Paul.

  • http://www.facebook.com/bodnar.paul Paul Bodnar

    I disagree about Weeden. The season average stat for Weeden is incredibly misleading due to a Total QBR of 1.2 in week 1 (Rating of 5.1). First game as a rookie is a reasonable excuse. Adjusting for this, he falls somewhere in the middle of QB.

  • Davekolonich

    In the first half, all I kept thinking about was how incredibly average the Bengals are and how even though they kept making mistakes, they could still beat a still-bad Browns team.

    Then these thoughts extended into more painful ones, such as how much work do the Browns have to do to even reach the Bengals’ erratic level – LET ALONE a championship level?

    Then, Pat Shurmur emerges from a 21-game funk and calls 1 1/2 quarters of solid offensive football and the Bengals (except for A.J. Green) melt down just enough to give the Browns a badly-needed win.

    All I can say is a Browns’ win still feels good and the Bengals’ frozen-knee defense comes in handy every few years when the Browns occasionally win a divisional game.

    And as for Mary Kay’s “party”, I expect it to be a joyous affair led by Montario Hardesty’s redemption and the Legend of Brandon Weeden’s tweaked ankle.

    • Believelander

      He has long since shed the mortal mantle of Montario Hardesty.

      His name…is Spins McGee.

  • Ess Eh

    If it’s a legitimate “party”, I’m pretty sure the Browns have a way to shut that whole thing down.

    • bupalos

      Why is this not getting liked more? This is outstanding!

      • Petefranklin

        Sit down, I can’t see.

  • Brian Sipe

    I am glad they won… However, these insane fans calling in radio shows saying how great Shurmur will be and that we must keep him is insane. Have our standards gone so low as Browns fans that we are pumped to be tied for the worst record in the NFL? If Paddy wins 7+ this year as the Walrus said was a must(6-10 would be unacaptable) that is one thing. If they win 4 or 5 can him ASAP

    • https://twitter.com/jimkanicki jimkanicki

      thank you. in addition to the 3-and-out string frowns referred to, there’s also:
      * challenging-then-getting-all-redfaced-when-informed-forward-progress-not-review-able;
      * peculiar 3rd/4 incompletion with 5mins left, 17 point lead, full-out time burning mode; and,
      * did anyone else see shurmur working over the linesman with like 30 seconds to go over who-the-hell-knows what?

      let’s relax a bit on the happy talk lest we have another crennel three year extension situation to deal with.

      • BIKI024

        and what was Bill Belichick doing at the end of the 1st half yesterday!?!?!?! 1st and goal with under a minute to go and they get NOTHING!??!!?!?! #dumpsterfire DERP

        what was the harm in challenging what was definitely a fumble!?!?! there was no harm done, so your point is meaningless. he can still yell at the refs for stupidly blowing their whistle prematurely. every coach works the refs man, and it’s not like we lost a timeout on it..

        • https://twitter.com/jimkanicki jimkanicki

          when shurmur has three rings we’ll start entertaining belichick/shurmur comparisons. DERP.

          • BIKI024

            exactly, my point is, you can find several “errors” by coaches in every game, but obviously winning covers that up. but yet you still want to rip on the guy after a win. good grief

          • NeedsFoodBadly

            well, he still sucks after a win.

          • BIKI024

            no dude, that’s not bikilogic. bikilogic is all about being profitable on sundays, not like your pedestrian record YTD on Cheddar. hahahahohohohehehe

          • https://twitter.com/jimkanicki jimkanicki

            holy hell — i need two if not three lobsterfests to achieve pedestrian status.

            however.. by bikilogic.. if i happen to get 5.5 points next week and creep into 40th place.. it shall be called a SHURMURFEST.

          • BIKI024

            actually, that’s a heckuva name for anyone who goes 0-6 (see below)! SHUMURFEST!

            oh wait, Frownie already deleted my suggestion. poor guy

          • Petefranklin

            Shurmerfest 1-5

          • Believelander

            It’s weird because nobody still cares about you winning money betting on sports this season, and even your mom’s patience is wearing thin.

          • actovegin1armstrong

            Biki,
            The Cheddar Gods shall now inflict their wrath upon you.
            To quote the red headed, long haired, hippy,
            “It is a little old fashioned Karma coming down”

          • BIKI024

            @Believeland – yes, my mother’s dying wish was for me to quit gambling.

          • GrandRapidsRustlers

            Shurmur has 5 rings. I saw them in his office.

          • Petefranklin

            AWESOME!!

          • dukem1

            Heck, I’ll start the
            Belechick/Shurmur comparisons…
            Shurmur is probably, in real life, a likable enough chap, and in one way or another more knowledgeable re: football than anyone posting here – which does not change at all the fact that as an NFL head coach he is in over his head to the point of incompetence…
            Belechick…now here’s a guy one can hate just on the merits…the Browns were his “starter”team, and he ruined them to the point where there was not even a team left – literately – when he was done with them…it is also unlikely that in NE he was praying for a ruinous injury to his pretty good starting QB so he could build a team around a 5th round draft pick…
            As for Weeden, we can stipulate he seems to have the physical tools to be productive, and that he is smart enough to use them efficiently, given a decent supporting cast…but what is still in the back of my mind are the “intangibles.”
            We will know by January if he’s the kind of guy who finds a way to win, or the kind of guy who finds a way to lose
            To my mind, 3/8ths of the way into the season, he has yet to seem like a guy who finds a way to win.
            Oh….! More Josh Cooper!

          • https://twitter.com/jimkanicki jimkanicki

            shumur may well be a better guy to have a beer with. ill go out on a limb and guess that paul brown was a bit of dick to be around. and so… … what? when shurmur performs some belichickian innovation like game planning a hurry-up run game or changing his defense from 3-4 to 4-3 based on his personnel or beating the best offense ever in a super bowl… well you get the idea.

            for the record, im ok with weeden’s play. i think he’s hamstrung by shurmur’s offensive schemes and coaching. and since shurmur was sold to us as a ‘qb guru’ his utter lack of competence in that area is an inflamed ingrown toenail to me.

            agreed, more josh cooper.

          • actovegin1armstrong

            jk,
            Shurmie has three rings.
            I may never get to see them in person, but I may be able to stand outside gawking at the bearded lady.

            Shurmie Circus!

      • GrandRapidsRustlers

        My favorite part of him working that ref over with a minute left was the fact that the ref was smiling and almost laughing at him.

        The Bengal WR was not set and was not on the LOS which probably was a penalty but the ref at that point does not give a shit and is basically laughing at Pat.

        Also did not get my all play points in Cheddar added yesterday…need all the help I can get. Thanks!

        • https://twitter.com/jimkanicki jimkanicki

          thanks for catching that, weird, fixed.

      • Mark

        Your first and third bullet points reek of the Mangini witchhunt.

        Can YOU believe he got red faced???

        Can YOU believe Mangini made the rookies take a bus to CT???

        Chill. It’s victory Monday

        • 910Derp

          The Browns beat a good quarterback- does this expand the Win Zone?!

      • Believelander

        If I were Pat Shurmur, I would have thrown napalm on those refs after that fumble. Then again, if I were Mike McCarthy I would have long since killed every last one of them.

        I did find the 3rd and 4 incompletion odd – I know you’re trying to convert the first down. The reason it’s odd was because of its odd relation to a 3rd and 4 we ran the ball on later. We passed at a point on the field where an INT on a short pass could easily go for 6, and would have at bare minimum started the Bengals in field goal range. We did this on a play that would have cost the Bengals a full 40 seconds or a timeout. Later, on 3rd and 4 just outside of field goal range for -us-, we run the ball with 2:19 on the clock to cost the Bengals a whopping 19 seconds, when we’re in a much safer position to attempt to pass for the first down. Note that if we had called a deep play action pass route to the end zone, that could easily have run the clock down 7 or 8 seconds, so conservatively and meekly running the football gained us like 10-12 seconds. It’s all just so bizarre it makes my teeth ache.

    • Believelander

      No, they haven’t, but there are fans who are just as rabidly in support of Pat Shurmur against the consensus as we were in support of Eric Mangini against the same consensus. I’ve been listening to them on the radio every week that we’ve lost – they’re just all calling in like mad now that the blind Shurmur found a nut.

      What perplexes me about these folks is what they see in Shurmur that convinces them he’s going to be/is a good head coach. I’ve asked some Shurmur supporters about this, and none of them seem to be able to actually list anything tangible, which is odd. It’s like thinking a girl is hot but not being able to list any features of hers that are attractive.

  • https://twitter.com/jimkanicki jimkanicki
  • dubbythe1

    I appreciate a win.
    I understand it is against an overrated team that rode a wave of an easy schedule last year much like we did in ’07.
    I still think our head coach has to go.. when is the real question.
    I feel we have the building blocks on both sides of the ball.
    I AM afraid we will stumble into enough wins to put us into a position where we just miss drafting a fills-a-huge-nee-stud-player… how many times has this happened to us?!?!?
    I really hope we nab the #1 pick and trade it to snag future picks and secure a second rounder to make up for the one we lost.

    • NeedsFoodBadly

      This articulates much of how I feel except for the draft thing.

      We’re still very much in the running for the number one pick, but no matter what, we’ll be in the top five again. Whoever we pick will be a contributor – we’ve got enough holes we can find something for someone to do.

      • Believelander

        Since we probably aren’t going to spend a top pick on a quarterback unless Weeden gets hit by a scud missile or an escaped felon James Harrison, and it doesn’t look like there will be a talent nearly on the level of RG3/Luck to miss out on this year, we should be able to get what we need. Taking a look at the positions who go high in the draft:

        Quarterback (???? but we’re not going to dump a 1st round QB after 1 season)
        Left tackle (we’re probably ok)
        Defensive line (stud interior linemen tend to go higher, so maybe we miss on one, but we need an exterior pass rusher more, anyway)
        Cornerback-ish (could use another. If there’s a top caliber prospect he’ll be available if we’re picking in on the fringes of the top 5)
        Wide receiver (because GMs never learn their lessons. Also if Greg Little does what he has to do to learn to catch consistently, and if Josh Gordon hits the books hard and learns all the schemes and routes and reads that are the only real weakness he exhibits, we could be in business here)

        Which isn’t to say other positions don’t go in the top 5, but these are the ones that you consistently see coming off the board in the top 10 picks every April. Personally, if there’s a JJ Watt/Clay Matthews type pass rusher, or a Patrick Willis type linebacker, or a scary good cornerback, we should be able to fill up these areas of need. If not, Browns draft picks are always a hot commodity for teams playing fast and loose with their draft assets.

        • NeedsFoodBadly

          The areas of need I perceive (in no particular order) are in the secondary, linebackers, and wide receivers. If there is a badass DE, that would be fine too.

          But we should really use that first round pick on a fullback, since that is probably the area of most pressing concern.

          • BIKI024

            maybe Vickers will be a FA again, since he’s been on 3 teams in 3 seasons..

          • NeedsFoodBadly

            if that happens we will win twenty super bowls

          • Believelander

            In TEN SEASONS!

          • Believelander

            We drafted Brad Smelley in the 7th? round and there’s been some discrepancies as to whether he’s a halfback, fullback, or tight end, but we drafted him as a fullback and waived him. He’s got to be better than Marecic though. And if he’s not, there’s got to be somebody who’s better than Marecic.

        • dukem1

          Insofar as drafting…I remember the days when a team would build by drafting the best available player – which meant often passing up some Heisman runner-up for some OT who would give you 8-10 years of solid, workmanlike journeyman-like production.
          Now, those were the days when a guy would get ready to play by “strappin’ on the helmet,” rather than getting his football wig woven in. But still….
          Filling holes via the draft is by and large a crap shoot, with odds stacked pretty much against you.

          (Edited by author to include more excellent football analysis.)

      • bupalos

        Yeah I don’t see any far and away #1 in this draft at all. I’d like to see some W’s.

  • Wiseoldredbeard

    Well, I guess I joined the elite club of having my post removed for well deserved criticism. Time to take a week off and focus my efforts elsewhere.

    • https://twitter.com/jimkanicki jimkanicki

      frownstoldmetoscrew.com is still out there but never really took off.

      • Wiseoldredbeard

        Hilarity.

  • GrandRapidsRustlers

    I know this is the wrong city for this comment but…

    Can someone explain Marvin Lewis to me?

    I care nothing about the Bengals and don’t really care about their problems but the clock management at the end of the 1st half…completely ignoring the TE after gashing us in the middle of the field early. How long of a leash does that guy have down there?

    • NeedsFoodBadly

      He was too busy reading the gameplan that floated across the field at that point to handle things like clock management and playcalling. In that respect, the Browns coaching stuff pulled off a truly masterful stroke of deception that not even Mangini could have devised.

      • Beeej
        • http://twitter.com/cpmack Chris M

          Funny, I posted the exact same thing on twitter when I saw that float across the field. Great minds, etc.

          • Beeej

            If only someone from the front office read this blog. I’m sure we could divvy up Hog-ram’s 8 million per year AND get this team back to winning. First order of business replace the daiquiri machine with…Are you ready for this?…A MARGARITAVILLE!!!

        • 910Derp

          Now I miss my Super Tecmo Bowl…

    • Beeej

      I was thinking the same thing. The only thing I can come up with is that Mike Brown is the second worst owner in the league. I have a feeling he may be dropping one position come Thursday.

  • Chris P.

    you can be down on this all you want pp, and yes, i generally concur with the fact that we should not bring our standards down just because we’ve gone so long without, but cripe, it’s been so long that i don’t care who we wake up next to.

    • Petefranklin

      I hope both arms are intact this morning.

    • Kamov

      Oh god, I hope I didn’t catch any *permanent* diseases!

  • thebearchoo

    The only problem with the whole “take out the first week” logic that people keep throwing out with Weeden is that the first week actually happened, and the Browns can attribute that loss almost solely on his atrocious play.

    That’s like Manny Acta saying “well, outside of that one pitch that gave up the grand slam, Ubaldo looked really good today” after every game. That pitch counts just like every other pitch.

    That being said, a win is a win and it feels good, but there’s still not much difference between 0-16 and 3-13.

    • BIKI024

      yes the first week happened, but it seems to me that people want to see him make progressions, which he has. of course he has a long way to go, but as is the case with rookies, particularly QBs, it’s a process. so let’s see if he continues to trend upwards. he has no excuse not to have an efficient game against a hapless Colts defense in which opposing QB’s have averaged a 100 qb rating, with 10 TDs to only 2 INTs

      • Petefranklin

        2 wins in a row would mean a little something,but as long as Weeden shows improvement I’m OK with him Win or Lose.

      • Bryan

        No one expects the Browns to win a lot of games this year with Shurmur running the ship and a ton of Rookies playing. Yes, Weeden single-handedly lost game 1, but what matters going forward is whether you believe he is the answer for at least another year (and ideally 3-5 years). That is what the team needs to figure out. In doing that, Week 1 obviously carries a lot less weight than his progression over the course of the year.

        I used the T-Rich example above, so I will use it again. He was TERRIBLE in Week 1 too. Does that mean we should ignore the fact that he was clearly a BEAST in Weeks 2-5? Which performance should carry more weight? His first ever game against a good D, or his trend since then? T-Rich is a clear solution as a feature back who is only going to get better as the team grows. It would be completely silly to be stuck on, “Well, in that one game two months ago he only averaged 2 yard a carry.”

  • http://www.autismspeaks.org/ PML

    The only way this win would have made me happy was if Shurmur immediately resigned afterwards so he could go out on top.

    • BIKI024

      it’s called Costanza Showmanship: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QpUyb37CFT4

      • http://www.autismspeaks.org/ PML

        Bingo!

        • Petefranklin

          The problem would be that if Childress actually won a few games and beat Pittsburgh, we’d be stuck with him.

          • http://www.autismspeaks.org/ PML

            That’s a risk I’m willing to take.

          • Chris P.

            BRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

          • Kamov

            He’s cold like Walter White. Or maybe he is Walter White?

  • Harbaugh Handshakes

    You guys see Shurmer address the team after the game?? The guy was straight fire…I mean I ony counted 4 platers falling asleep… 11-5 baby!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hb0riFPkZgE&feature=player_embedded

    • Petefranklin

      Now I know why we always lose the first and third QTR’s. George Allen would be rolling over in his grave if he had to endure that “victory” speech.

      • Kamov

        I hope they don’t regret winning so much they don’t do it again this week, but I would have a hard time blaming them for it.

    • https://twitter.com/jimkanicki jimkanicki

      will never be confused with paul rhoads beating ok st.

    • Believelander

      It’s like a combination of a snake oil self-help ‘guru’ and a corporate yes man toeing the company line. He’s got the perfect hair for it.

  • BIKI024

    2 weeks till Cavs season starts.. over/under is 32 wins. i think the oddsmakers hit it on the head with this one. while i’m 2-0 with my Cavs team wins wagers, i’m on the fence on this one… love the guys we have, but still think we’re another lotto away from luring Bron. when was last time 2 bros played on same team? Tyler and Cody Zeller would be a great combo at C next year!

    • GrandRapidsRustlers

      Obviously a huge fan of the season over/under bets.

      Still bitter about the under on the Tribe and still pretty confident on my under for the Browns.

      I think this is an over for the Cavs this year. I’m thinking 37-41 wins this year. I just think Waiters will add an edge to this team and with a healthy Kyrie I think .500 is possible.

      • BIKI024

        yeah i’m high on weed, i mean Waiters as well, but just not sure the depth is there. plus if you look at the East, i see the Wiz much improved, as well as obviously the Nets, so there are less bottom dwellars we can pick up dubyas on. only team that I can say with conviction that has less talent is the Magic. i’m thinking 29-35 wins..

        • GrandRapidsRustlers

          My main hope is that late in the season Byron will not let the young guys get down or quit and they will finish the season strong. He really is the perfect coach for this young roster right now. Commands respect from the players and has the backing of the front office. There are a handful of organizations where benching the 1st rounder even in a preseason game could be the end of days for the coach.

          • BIKI024

            we’ve got high character guys on this roster, led by 20 year old KI. but vets like Andy and CJ won’t allow it either. but yeah, having a guy like Byron should ensure that we’ll “battle” each game, just not sure how many will result in Wins.

          • Petefranklin

            What was their record before they “shut it down”? They were in the hunt,therefore if KI stays healthy I believe in OVER 32. I guess KI’s health is what you are actually placing your wager on.

      • BIKI024

        i’m a quasi-homer on this, but LOVE Brooklyn OVER 44.5. i think this team can win 50. They have a very solid roster and I think Andre Blatche is going to surprise some people this year.

        PG: Deron/CJ Watson
        SG: JJ/Marshon
        SF: Gerald Wallace/Josh Childress
        SF: Humphries/Reggie Evans
        C: Brook/Blatche

        • Petefranklin

          Dont fool yourself Deron is so over rated. He had a chance to be elite in Utah and didn’t deliver. Yeah they’ll be better but dont get homered into anything you will regret.

          • BIKI024

            he wasn’t elite in Utah? 2 time 2nd team all-nba. he had a bunch of bums with him on Utah that Sloan got to play above their pay grade. different boat now in BK.

    • dukem1

      Pro hoops…A 2 minute game with a 2 week season.

  • Dr. Jew

    The three Joshes played well yesterday. And the defense hung tight. But I’m still willing to bet half of Frownies’ salary for the year that the Browns will pick a quarterback with their first round pick in 2013.

    • Beeej

      You mean “The Flying J’s?”

  • NeedsFoodBadly

    It is my general policy never to root for player injuries. But there are a rare few that I actively hope get hurt forever (The Pittsburgh Rapist, etc.). Sports Illustrated is reporting that unconvicted murderer Ray Lewis is out for the season! Hooray! What a happy sports Monday this is.

    Also, whoever chose him to be in that commercial with that little kid is monstrous and everyone involved with its airing sucks forever.

    • BIKI024

      losing Webb hurts them as well.. too bad we already played them once..

      • Petefranklin

        Superfans bet seems to be picking up steam quickly. I’ll give them one vs Pitts or Bal, KC and Ind. That would be four. The key game will be in the black hole as RG III will send Homey packing.

  • Believelander

    You know Pete, for someone so good at criticizing the most minor things, you sure are bad at getting criticized.

    • Wiseoldredbeard

      Funny, I thought the same thing when my comments vanished earlier today… (this one soon to follow I presume)

  • nj0

    Peter King picked both Pat Shurmur and Chan Gailey for his “Coach of the Week” section.

    I did not get to see the Browns game this weekend (first I’ve missed too) so cannot comment on that, but I did catch the Bills (my 2nd NFL team). A Chan supporter since his hiring, this was the game that convinced me that he is not a good head coach and should be replaced.

    The last five minutes of the fourth quarter contained some of the worst late game coaching and play calling that I have seen in a while. (Remember, I am a Browns and Bills fan.) To keep this short: even with Skelton filling in for an injured Kolb, it took a late missed 38-yard FG doinked off the upright to send the game to OT. For the win, the Bills needed a marginal QB to throw his 18 INT in his 15th game played to get the late “h0w did we not lose that” win.

    In short- the Bills did not win that game, the Cards lost it, and Peter King says the darnedest things.

    • BIKI024

      Browns AND Bills fan???? No wonder you’re so self-loathing. The Bills were winning that game. Bills won that game fair and square. the DL finally showed up and the offense did just enough against one of the top defenses in the league. plus the Bills got SMOKED the 2 previous games, so it could’ve easily been a game that Chan lost the team on.. good win for Chan and the Bills to keep them status quo in the AFC. hopefully they can build on the win.

      • nj0

        They’re all good wins.

        How do you know I’m self-loathing?

        • BIKI024

          it’s hard not to be if you’re a Browns AND Bills fan. and then to discredit Petey King from givin Chan some love for a win that was a HUGE win for the team. sure it wasn’t pretty, but with a 3 hour time difference against one of the top defenses in the league, after 2 embarrassing blowouts, he (and the team) deserved some love.

          plus i love the guy for helping me cover Bills +5!

          • nj0

            I’m not one for self-loathing and fail to see how being a Browns and Bills fan, thinking Chan Gailey is an inadequate coach who performed poorly this past weekend, or disagreeing with something Peter King wrote would suggest otherwise.

            Sorry if I am coming across as overly serious, but it is starting to feel rather territorial at times down here in the comments.

            Or maybe it’s always been like this and I just don’t have the stomach I once did. Could very well be.

          • BIKI024

            ok, well then i retract the self-loathing comment, sorry if i offended you.

            but i stand by Peter King’s assessment that Gailey gets a nod for coach of the week. maybe there were some tactical decisions you didn’t care for, but again, that was a huge win for them after a miserable 2 weeks of epic failure. he could’ve easily lost the team this week with another blowout and kept them at a respectable 3-3. now let’s see if the defensive line can keep the pressure up because they’ll need to if they want to make it to the playoffs.

          • Believelander

            It’s sort of like being a Browns and a Jets and a Cavs and a Heat fan except instead of self-loathing, you’re just delusional.

          • BIKI024

            Delusional? Good grief man, get a life

            Cheers,
            Superfan!

    • bupalos

      >>>The last five minutes of the fourth quarter contained some of the worst late game coaching and play calling that I have seen in a while.>>>

      In a while, perhaps. But I remember thinking that Mangini’s ’10 game against Jacksonville was really horrible in that regard, if you want to go back that far.

      • Believelander

        What did Mangini do in that game that was horrible? Trying to remember. I remember the Chips McCoy attack not being able to turn a barrage of turnovers into many points?

  • Heisenberg

    Frowns now = Tony Grossi during the Mangini Era

    • BIKI024

      @ rebuilding Colts = winnable
      HOME against injury riddled Ravens = winnable
      HOME against bipolar Chargers = winnable

      we know how much Frownie loves 4 game winning streaks. now let’s see if the Clowns can turn that Frown upside down with a big road win

      • Petefranklin

        So if we win 5 do you want to retain Shurmer? Let’s get it on the record.

        • BIKI024

          i will support whatever the new administration decides to do. but if they win 5+ and Weeden is improving and the team is behind the guy, then it seems like it might be risky to break up the continuity.

          • Petefranklin

            5 would be nice but scary too. Jauron or Childress couldn’t possibly be worse than Pat.

      • ClevelandFrowns

        If they win four in a row I will eat my face.

        • BIKI024

          we’ve all heard that before.. you still have a face

        • http://twitter.com/cpmack Chris M

          I’ll provide the bath salts.

  • bupalos

    For the record I’ve watched the thing again and the playcalling on both sides of the ball in this one was good. Not good for Shurmur-Jauron… Actually good. Weeden misses a lot of midrange stuff against zone that is pretty wide open. Billy Winn had another outstanding game. Haden and Cribbs are simply the heart of this team. The latter does need to be on the field more on O, not necessarily to get the rock, but to throw 1.75 beautiful downfield blocks per play.

    The 7 3-and-outs is kind of a garbage stat too, if you look at the details of that.

    Richardson was subtly grabbing his ribs after his 4th run, though I can’t tell where it happened at all.

    The secondary has some serious problems and one of them is named Ward.

    • ClevelandFrowns

      “The 7 3-and-outs is kind of a garbage stat too, if you look at the details of that.”

      So, uh, what are the details of that? Also, technically it was 9 three and outs.

  • BIKI024

    i know it’s few and far between, but the best part about Victory Sunday/Monday is hearing Jimmy Donovan and Dieken’s take on the highlights.

  • Cranky M

    If you take away the game 1 debacle, for which Weeden obviously wasn’t even close to being prepared, then Weeden’s Total QBR is exceptionally better.
    That’s all.

    • ClevelandFrowns

      In 4 of his 6 games Weeden has registered a Total QBR worse than the average for the worst starting QB in the league.

  • CleveLandThatILove

    Why don’t we all just wait until Weeds has an actual body of work to evaluate before we try to determine if he has a place in this league? He’s faced just 5 teams, one of which had some tape on him from a previous game. Sure he’s 29, but how many years were lost to baseball before he made the switch to football a few years ago? Haven’t most rookie QBs in the NFL been pretty much saturated in football and only football from an early age? I don’t really know, I’m asking. Yet he succeeded in college football and landed in a very respectable place in the draft – too high, perhaps, but who knows. So he apparently has the ability to learn and to adapt quite well. Let’s chill out and see how he adapts to the pros. Maybe he’s NFL starter material, maybe not, but how about we give the guy a chance?

    • BIKI024

      COTY nominee for CLTIL!!!

      • CleveLandThatILove

        High praise, indeed. Thanks, Biki.

    • BIKI024

      and the one team that had some tape on him failed to take advantage of his weaknesses, although they did manage to bat a few balls. but otherwise the line did a great job of giving Weeds some time, particularly on the 10 play 66 yard drive to take the lead.

    • Believelander

      That would detract from the volume of bellicose Grossi-esque negativity Frowns has to write about the Browns. A million likes for your comment.

    • Believelander

      Edit: this is the best comment ever.

  • James Morton

    This was a fun article, a little trolly, but hey, whatever.

    Brandon Weeden has done nothing but show flashes of competence this season. That’s not a negative. He’s a rookie QB who has shown flashes of being an average to slightly-above starter, and while it’s fun to say “Derek Anderson did that too durrr”, every QB the Browns have had since 1999 have shown the same flashes. It’s too early to call either way. And QBR isn’t be-all/end-all, because this past weekend Mark Sanchez had a better game than Tom Brady. (And Brady had a horrible game, but c’mon dude.)

    The facts are save for three or four plays, Weeden has shown just as much as T-Rich….but Trent Warfare and all.

    I’m on Team Fire Everyone, and fully expect them to go 3-13, but pretending that beating “the quarterback they should have drafted” (your words, which were wrong, because Dalton’s ceiling is the same as Weeden’s) is just a “blind squirrel” is trolling to the 10th degree. This same win under Mangini is a testament to how an under-stocked coach beat the odds to have a dominating win against a superior opponent.

    It was a nice win. They outplayed a maybe 8-8 division opponent, at home. Low standards, but it’s the best I’ve seen since Mangini’s Crennel vs Giants game.

    All this said, Chip Kelly 2013.

    • ClevelandFrowns

      I like the attitude and fully endorse the conclusion but there is way too much bullshit here to stand.

      Most egregiously, this:

      “This same win under Mangini is a testament to how an under-stocked coach beat the odds to have a dominating win against a superior opponent.”

      The 2012 Bengals are not a remote comparison to the 2010 Pats or Saints, and more to the point, since those 2010 wins by Mangini, the roster has added 3 first rounders, 4 second rounders, and seen every useful player on the 2009 and 2010 rosters (including 5 draftees from those seasons who are starting) mature for 2+ seasons in a locker room that had been cleared of assholes by Mangini.

      Shurmur has about three times to work with and has done about 1/10th as much as Mangini did with it. To suggest otherwise is an embarrassment.

      • BIKI024

        The main reasons for the team being competitive under Mangini (in addition to good coaching) was due to a veteran laden defensive unit, many of whom had played for Mangini previously. The same can’t be said for a rookie laden bunch we’ve had the past 2 years, hence the learning curve.

        • ClevelandFrowns

          How many vets in those games had played for Mangini before? I count 2. Bowens and Elam. If I’m missing somebody, and/or your hypothesis that two, three or four players of the caliber of Bowens and Elam could really change games in the way you’re suggesting, Holmgren and Heckert are even bigger morons for doing what they did to this roster than I’m already sure they are.

          The main reason for those wins was having a coach who could make winning game plans. Only a fool would suggest otherwise.

          • BIKI024

            Barton and Coleman.. 2nd year with Benard and a few of the others. Only a fool would suggest rookies adjust to the NFL as well as seasoned veterans, particularly 4 starters who had previously played for him, in addition to 3 others who were in their 2nd year in the system.

  • BIKI024

    did the Executive Committee just pull a reverse jinx by counting the Chargers a win in the books already???

    • https://twitter.com/jimkanicki jimkanicki

      ok ok i wanted to turn in early. can always edit later… but yes… im on probation for this already so mums the word ok?

      ps, arriving penn station 7ish tuesday. you around times square for a beverage?

      • BIKI024

        no worries! as a true degenerate, i’m always superstitious!

        comin in to take a bite out of the apple?? i’ll be out in Long Island until around 9ish but then def down for beverage(s). how long you in town? hit me up, my gmail is: bikram.roy76 (don’t want the spider bots to spam me!)

        • Deputy Glitters

          How many people on this board live in NYC? I’m in Brooklyn myself – Ft. Greene.

          • BIKI024

            only one that i know of firsthand is dood, but i think there are others. BK! i’m up in UES now, just a few blocks from Manny’s, but was in willyb for past year and a half.

          • NeedsFoodBadly

            oh my god biki, are you a hipster???

          • Beeej

            Nope. But I do believe he is Native American.

          • https://twitter.com/jimkanicki jimkanicki

            im up in boston (nh seacoast) but finding myself in nyc a lot these days.

      • BIKI024

        um, is the cheddar jinx in full effect!?!??

        • ClevelandFrowns

          Hahahahahaha … Executive Committee power moves.

  • Deputy Glitters

    All the shit talk about Weeden… I’m watching ‘elite’ Phillip Rivers put on a show.

    • Believelander

      HAHAHA Laserface took a fat squat on a 24 point lead. Pey Pey is DAAAAANGEROOOOOUS

      While I was digging around for rookie stats to chop down some of the gun-jumping about Weeden, I took a deeper look at the popular froth coming from the media about how “oh were 4 r u old Peyton? This non 6-0 Peyton cannot be same Peyton!!!”

      Manning’s completion percentage, yards per attempt, yards per game, touchdown percentage, interception percentage, and QB rating are all markedly above his career averages and on par with some of his best seasons. The only two items where he has shown any decline are pass plays of 40+ yards (he’s on pace to fall well short) and sacks taken.

      Meanwhile ‘Elite’ Philip Rivers is doing what he’s done his entire career: be a pretty good quarterback who got drafted into a team on the rise with an embarrassment of pass catching options. Oh, and a complete jerkbag.

      Best Philip Rivers picture EVER

  • Kamov

    From Haslam*:

    “‘I’m a rookie,’ he said.”

    I THINK HE’LL FIT IN JUST FINE HERE.

    *http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2012/10/mike_holmgren_not_attending_nf.html#incart_river

  • Believelander
  • Believelander

    And Pete, you’re not doing a very good job of being an insufferable Debbie Downer about the Browns, so I thought I’d help you out with the real reason the Browns shouldn’t have drafted Brandon Weeden, from a Browns program from yesterday’s game.

    • NeedsFoodBadly

      I dunno, the idea of drafting a century-old, undead, vampire quarterback seems like a pretty cool idea. But we never play night games…

  • Believelander

    And here’s a good read from ESPN on their Total QBR – where ESPN thoroughly explains why their stat is completely meaningless.

    To save the readers who don’t want to analyze in 5000 words why this stat is meaningless, it’s because of subjective judgment based modifiers to the formula like their “Clutch Index” – a modifier that would, in their own words, apply over double the value for the same red zone completion in a close game in the fourth quarter as a close game in the second quarter. There are advanced stats, and then there is advanced tripe, and this is the latter.

    What else would you expect from the network that spun an unsubstantiated and ultimately false report of Browns fans attacking an 8 year old child into a narrative on why LeBron James was correct for leaving Cleveland?

    • ClevelandFrowns

      That first article is actually an excellent explanation for why you should be really concerned about Weeden.

      “What underlies QBR is an understanding of how football works and a lot of detailed situational data. What it yields are results that should reflect that”

      To that point, Sanchez was better than Brady on Sunday (that’s one day, you know) because he didn’t throw two interceptions deep in opposing territory that cost his team the game. What a completely insane idea.

      • Believelander

        Yes Frowns, according to ESPN, these things underly the stat invented by ESPN. By the way, this just in from ESPN: ESPN sports coverage best coverage on planet. The reality is, Sanchez was not better than Brady – Brady generated 400 yards of offense for his team, and Sanchez generated 82. Yes, I know, YAC and many other factors come into play, and this is the good of what their stat is -trying- to accomplish, but it doesn’t accomplish it, not nearly.

        When you insert a modifier to the grade for every play that determines the output QBR, which is based on arbitrary and subjective measuring sticks of how ‘clutch’ that play is, you’re putting subjectivity into analysis where your goal is to accomplish greater objectivity. Worse, their ‘clutch factor’ can create an arbitrary variance where their subjectively determined ‘most clutch’ plays are given over TEN times the weight of the least clutch plays, and commonly double or triple for the same accomplishment.

        At the end of the day, neither QBR nor RAT account for reality. One reality is that Brandon Weeden as a rookie is not the worst starting quarterback right now in the NFL. Another reality is that Tom Brady was vastly superior to Mark Sanchez because while he may have thrown two picks to hurt his team, he also threw for 400 yards against a very, very good Seattle defense. Meanwhile Mark Sanchez threw for 82 yards on a garbage Colts defense. No, Mark Sanchez was NOT better in that one game than Tom Brady, and no, Brandon Weeden is NOT the worst quarterback in the NFL as you wish to portray him for reasons better left to the sages. You are just incorrect here, and no amount of meaningless stats is going to convince any rational objective person otherwise.

        • ClevelandFrowns

          You realize that you’re conclusively dismissing a statistical measure as rubbish without providing any evidence that it actually is, right? HINT: Meaningless yammering about “subjective measures” and “clutchness” doesn’t count when you don’t explain what they are and how they figure in to the stat. ESPN explains in detail what it’s statistic sets out to do, and you don’t begin to show that it doesn’t do that.

          The point about Brady’s 400 yards of offense is that he didn’t make any plays that the average or baseline quarterback wouldn’t have made. Having watched the game and seen Wes Welker routinely come wide open in the middle of the Seahawks defense, that’s easy enough to understand.

          • etc

            Brandon Weeden vs. the Bengals this season: 43-for-66 (65.2 percent) for 553 yards with four touchdowns and one interception. His rating vs. Cincinnati: 105.2.

            via Pat McManamon

          • BIKI024

            i’m rooting for Weeden as much as the next guy, and those numbers are great and certainly something for him to build on, however the Bungles are 26th in opposing QB rating with an average of 99.6 (the Browns are 17th and 88.7).

            but there is definitely something to be said for him to play as well as he did the 2nd time around on Mike Zimmer. as a wise man once said, “Weeden’s first start against a team with some tape on him. Remember D.A. in his second game against the Bengals in 2007?”

          • etc

            Oh, no doubt, the Bengals secondary and linebackers give the Browns a run for worst in the league. But thems impressive stats for the a guy with an awful QBR.

          • Johnny

            QBR is too much of a “story stat.” By that, I mean it helps explain what happened during a game, but doesn’t necessarily do a good job of telling us how good the person who did something is.

            It’s similar to WPA in baseball.

            A seeing eye single through the infield that knocks in the game winning run is certainly more valuable than a 380 foot laser to center field that the OF jumps over the wall to grab.

            That the circumstances surrounding an action make it more valuable in that instant doesn’t mean it is at all predictive of who will be better going forward.

            And since we should always want to be forward looking, QBR is pretty much worthless.

            No serious analysis will EVER involve QBR. Period.

          • Believelander

            Danke schön.

          • Defenestration

            Should have kept reading before I commented.

          • ClevelandFrowns

            This is so stupid. According to your analysis no statistic ever used to measure the performance of any athlete could ever be useful for anything.

            This doesn’t merit getting into details, but I’ll note that it completely ignores the incentives of opponents to defend plays, as well as the fact that there’s no such thing as a “seeing eye single” in football, and that the stat would only be significant if a player could somehow consistently keep squeezing out those “seeing eye singles” even if the comparison was relevant. Anyway, what we’re talking about here is football, and with Weeden if any baseball comparisons are relevant they’re blown saves and GIDPs.

            But ESPN has devoted hundreds of thousands of dollars and resources to developing a statistic that’s completely worthless and couldn’t be used in ANY serious analysis at all. Because anonymous moron commenting at X website says so. Congrats.

          • Believelander

            Well I’m assuming since you’re touting the value of a stat invented by ESPN, that you actually know what goes into it, so I don’t have to explain it to you. But if you don’t know the inner workings of the formula you’re using to espouse your point, the ESPN page explains rather thoroughly how it works, even as they do not provide any specific details (which in fairness would be nigh impossible to lay out clearly for fans with such a complex formula).

            The point about Sanchez is that he didn’t make any plays that I couldn’t have easily made, as I can throw a pass 12 or less yards with accuracy and I daresay touch. But you’re right, his epic 4.75 yards per attempt and incredible 11/18 were an example of sterling quarterbacking. Which is why the QBR for his performance was so high, because he did so well in generating 1 less yards per pass attempt than his team did per rush attempt. (5.7 yards per carry)

            If Brady’s performance was replacement level, Sanchez’s performance was junior high school level. Thank you for helping me make my point.

        • Defenestration

          I really wish ESPN would explain exactly how they come up with the stat. From what I’ve read, it appears that what they are doing would be akin to someone in baseball using WPA (win probability added) to judge the talent level of a player, when all it should be used for is to describe how the player’s individual performance in the specific situations they were placed in affected the teams chances of winning the game. A guy in baseball could theoretically go 4-4 with 4 HRs and have a near zero WPA. It tells you nothing of talent or context-neutral performance.

  • Believelander

    Good news for Weeden haters: Jets beat Colts by 1,000,000 points in a game where SANCHIZE passes 11 for 18 for 82 yards. We can hand the ball off to Richardson, Hardesty, and Ogbie Bogbie on every offensive snap next week and probably win by at least 40. We might need to get Brandon Jackson in there after the first 3 guys are all gassed from sprinting for 200+yards apiece. Owen Marecic will have a breakout day, getting 11 carries for 38 yards and a fumble recovered by Josh Cribbs.

    Fun Sanchize facts: Mark Sanchez’s 82 yards is his third lowest career total, which means he’s passed for less than 82 yards twice as an NFL starter. In hindsight, I’m glad we got Robiskie and Massaquoi instead.

    • NeedsFoodBadly

      Don’t draft USC quarterbacks. That is all.

      • Believelander

        SUCK4BARKLEY2013

    • http://twitter.com/cpmack Chris M

      And Alex Mack for that matter.

      • Believelander

        yeah, but I’m mostly glad we got Brobiskie instead of Sanchez.

        • BIKI024

          Robiskie had nothing to do with the Jets trade. he was selected with the original Browns 2nd round pick and MoMass was selected with the pick we got from TB for Winslow..

        • BIKI024

          i know everyone loves to beat up on Sanchez, but this season he hasn’t really gotten a lot of help since most of his receivers had been out. He should improve with Hill and Keller back, but losing Holmes for the year hurts.

          But his postseason numbers are above average, so we know the kid can play in pressure situations:

          6 games (4-2 record)
          95-157 (60.5%)
          7.5 ypa
          9TDs/3INT
          93.5 rating

  • Deputy Glitters
  • Believelander

    Mary Kay Cabot reporting Tom Heckert not expecting to survive the ownership change.

  • Hopwin

    Jabba the Shows’ days of dancing to the snappy tune of the Cleveland Media are over. LET THE STANDING IN THE DAWG POUND RESUME!

  • https://twitter.com/jimkanicki jimkanicki

    cheddar sidebar: im in for

    ull -4 at unt

    tonite.

    • actovegin1armstrong

      May I please have the other side of that bet?
      I will take North Tx +4 over U Louis Lafayette.

      • https://twitter.com/jimkanicki jimkanicki

        you got it.

  • Petefranklin

    HOLMGRENS GONE!!!!

  • p_forever
    • BIKI024

      have we heard anything new?? everyone knew Holmgren was gone, but it was just a matter of when. the people in play are Heckert and coaching staff. we’ll finally hear from the horse’s mouth (Haslam and Banner) tomorrow at noon. but even then i’m sure we’ll just get the same blanket statement: “we’ll evaluate everything after the season”

      • Bryan

        Apparently “sources” say that Heckert believes its unlikely he will kept around. So its looking like complete overhaul. Although Jimmy H apparently “looked Shurmur in the eye” and said “No decisions have been made yet” about his future.

        Also, MKC is reporting that Haslam’s goal is “to win a superbowl.” Great stuff right there. MKC continues to provide only the most unique insights that her close access affords her.

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