Giant Failure: Browns hit new lows in loss to New York

by Cleveland Frowns on October 8, 2012

“We had about a three minute stretch there before the end of the first half that, just, you know, uh, wow, you can’t do that, you know, against a good football team. And then we battled …”Pat Shurmur

“You’d think anyone who’s played much quarterback would know that you only get one forward pass [per play].” — Dan Dierdorf

“It stinks.”T.J. Ward

“I appreciate where you’re going with this, but you’re getting a little redundant.” — Shurmur

—————

Congratulations to the Cleveland Browns for equaling the worst losing streak in the franchise’s 64-year history with their eleventh loss in a row. It’s the first 0-5 start since the first season of the expansion era, and yesterday marked the first time since 1960 that an NFL team had allowed an opponent to have a 200-yard rusher and a receiver with three touchdowns in the same game.

After three off-seasons under Mike Holmgren, and three full drafts (three-plus-plus, actually), we’re now in Holmgren’s third season and Randy Lerner’s historically bad decision is yielding historically bad results.

At least there’s an end in sight.

As much as it’s still incredible that the first names we hear are still Gruden and Cowher (since we haven’t learned enough about throwing money at the priciest brand name available), at least this time we’re talking about bringing these guys in for people who really do need to be replaced.

Um, that game yesterday was horrible. 

The Giants came in so banged up that it caused the defending champion of our Cheddar Bay Reality Football contest — a lifelong Giants fan who skillfully and persuasively rode Big Blue all the way to the title last year — to pick the Browns to cover the 8-point spread. “It’s not an injury bug, it’s an injury bomb,” he said, pointing out that no fewer than seven New York starters were out yesterday with at least five more playing hurt.

Of course, after the Giants gave the Browns a 14-0 lead with an unforced fumble and a decision to cover a wide receiver deep with a linebacker, it looked like our defending champ’s prediction would be right on. The Browns offensive line was getting push and protecting the quarterback, the Giants’ suspect back-7 couldn’t tackle Trent Richardson, and it looked like Pat Shurmur would finally get a legitimate upset win under his belt. But then the Giants punched back a little bit, Brandon Weeden threw one of the worst interceptions you’ll ever see in the NFL, and the whole Browns operation proceeded to completely melt down.

Suffice to say the folks who are blaming yesterday’s entire dumpster fire explosion on a single second-quarter decision to pass on 3rd-and-1 (the first Weeden interception) are either out of their minds, unforgivable and/or legendary hacks, or both.

Of course, Shurmur was right to emphasize in the post-game press conference that Weeden made a horrendous throw there. Sometimes you run on 3rd-and-1, and sometimes you want to pass. And what Pat was getting at but couldn’t just come out and say was that if one play call in the second quarter really could cause a collapse on the order of what happened yesterday at Met Life Stadium, you’ve got much bigger problems than that one play call. Of course, to hear so much about one pass attempt on 3rd-and-1 from the same Tony Grossi who couldn’t stop howling when we had a coach who recognized the limitations of what he had to work with and did things like call running plays and kick field goals in response, is a nightmare of self-parody on such an order that only the Curse of Wahoo could be responsible.

So, Dick Jauron’s defense. For the first time in two seasons under Shurmur and Jauron, the Browns faced an elite quarterback, and the result was a surgical embarrassment. The Giants were the 22nd-ranked rushing attack in the league going into yesterday,  and over-the-hill mediocrity Ahmad Bradshaw went for 200 yards on 30 carries. (Imagine what Richardson would have done in his place.) And T.J. Ward is now in his third season in the league. If he’s supposed to be a future star, is it too much to ask of him to step up and make a few plays in Joe Haden’s absence?

On the other side of the ball it was Brandon Weeden at least as much as the play-calling that killed the Browns. Yes Weeden hit a wide open Josh Gordon for two touchdowns on throws that Derek Anderson would have made, too. But in addition to misfiring badly on a number of passes throughout the game, there were the two incredibly bone-headed interceptions in Giants territory. The first we’ve been over, of course, and Weeden’s second pick might have been worse. It came after the Giants had taken a seventeen-point lead at which point the referees started letting the Browns defense clothesline Giants receivers with impunity, which led to an Usama Young interception that he returned to the Giants 27. With a chance to close within a touchdown on 3rd-and-goal from the Giants’ 10, Weeden threw a pass right into Giants linebacker Chase Blackburn’s chest. Dan Dierdorf, calling the game for CBS, was flabbergasted. “The only way that could have possibly been a completion would have been if the defender would have fallen down.”

Trent Richardson looked like the best running back in the league yesterday and the offensive line gave the quarterback plenty of time in the pocket (he wasn’t sacked once). Through five games, anybody who tells you that Weeden has shown anything that Derek Anderson didn’t show when he was four years younger is just making things up.

As for the highlights, it happened on the first drive the third quarter when the Browns rolled the dice and won with a quarterback sneak on a 4th-and-1 at their own 36 causing Dierdorf to comment on how “the luxury of being 0-4″ is something that makes it easy for a coaching staff to make calls like that. Of course, facing a 4th-and-5 five plays later and 20-yards up the field in Giants territory, Shurmur punted, complicating the task of historians of the 0-4 Luxury Offense, and leaving us to wonder what kind of indulgences are coming our way next week now that we’re 0-5.

Another match with the Bengals, who are coming to Cleveland after suffering the unimaginable experience of a home loss to a  team that plays under a rookie head coach with a rookie starting quarterback.

  • bupalos

    Good work. It was bad. Really no quibbles from me today.

    Alright just 1.
    >>>at which point the referees started letting the Browns defense clothesline Giants receivers with impunity>>> That’s pretty bogus. Giants got ticky-tack PI most of the game. The int. was interference, but it was pretty bang bang and only looked clear after 18 super slow-mo’s which we didn’t get the benefit of on the tickytaks and phantoms.

    Alright 1 more. The Browns were really no less banged up than the Giants, relatively speaking.

    I hope that reaction from Dr. Frackenstein really is what it looks like.

    • ClevelandFrowns

      I guess that’s fair enough about the injuries, other than the fact that the Giants were down one of their best offensive lineman and two of their starting DTs (Canty is on the PUP) in addition to 1/2 of their secondary and two starting receivers.

      • bupalos

        We were down half a secondary too, and we only have half a secondary to begin with. We were down half a receiving corp, and we have less that half of one of those to begin with. By the second half I think it’s fair to say we were missing our best 4 players on defense as I would probably order it: Haden, DQ, Aytuba, Taylor.

        We can all dumpster fire til the cows come home, but swap QB’s in that game and it’s a blowout the other way. So I have a hard time throwing all the babies into the dumpster fire with the bathwater. But yeah, it sucked.

        • dubbythe1

          agree, but also if you switch head coaches the game is much much closer, or possibly even a blowout the other way.

          • bupalos

            I’m no shurmur fan but I really disagree on the coach thing. Really, I thought he called an OK game overall this time. If your qb is going to rear back and throw two balls like the weedster did for his ints, there is nothing coaching can do to fix it.

            You really liked that Brilliant LB on WR scheme they ran?

          • dubbythe1

            Im thinking more on the macro of preparedness, gameplanning, adjustments over a series of games rather than the 2 interceptions, maybe he did call an OK game, but it was far from competent as far as NFL standards go, an still extremely predictable.

  • Bryan

    Couldn’t agree more about the D. Wow was that ugly. But I see a lot of things to like on Offense, particularly with Weeden.

    The Good: In three road games against possible playoff teams, he has averaged over 300 yards passing and completed 60% of his passes while throwing 4 TDs. We all know he has also made major mistakes, but to only concentrate on those mistakes without acknowledging the many successes is unfair and misleading. It is not possible to throw for over 900 yards in three road games, completing 60% of your passes, and not make a number of good/great plays. The fact that so few Browns fans acknowledge these facts is odd. He is a legitimate vertical threat and our offense is dramatically improved due to both he and T-Rich. If he had a decent coach and a veteran WR we might see some Ws.

    Learning: Watch the Gordon throw from yesterday. It wasn’t just a simple throw to a wide open received. If you look carefully you will see that Little is wide open on a shorter pattern and Weeden initially eyes him. Weeden then sees the Gordon mismatch and changes his decision. This type of read is precisely the read that he missed last week when he never saw Benjamin open deep (as Rod described in his post). This week, he made the read and made a physically demanding throw on top of it. He deserves credit for learning. He still makes some major mistakes (nor has Andrew Luck or any other rookie in NFL history), but he is making demonstrable progress.

    “Back Breaking” Throws: Since Game 1, Weeden has thrown 167 passes and by my count 3 of them were really atrocious (pick 6 against Balt, and 2 picks yesterday). If you include the 2 meaningless picks against Buffalo he has 5 interceptions in his last 167 attempts. For the year, Rodgers has thrown 4 INTs in 189 attempts. Again, there is no denying he has made some major mistakes, but the tone at this blog lacks all perspective. Weeden is throwing the ball a ton, usually in situations where his team is trailing, and he has not had that many mistakes. Yes, some of his throws are bad, but there is a lot of good. And he has only played 5 games in the NFL.

    To be clear, I am not saying he is amazing right now, but he is clearly the best QB prospect we have had since 1999. That may ultimately mean that he is not good enough to win it all, but it is a CLEAR improvement and he has real upside. That is all you can expect from a rookie who is surrounded by bad coaching and other rookies at key positions.

    • actovegin1armstrong

      Hey everybody, look at this, Biki changed his name to Bryan.

      • Bryan

        I prefer to be called BryIki.

        Weeden will be da man by year’s end. Mark my word. We just to get Shurmur out the door.

        • bupalos

          Bryikalos.

          • dubbythe1

            the Hydra has many heads

      • Bryan

        And on a more serious note, when it come to matters related to football I have always tended to agree with Frowns (loved Mangini, hated Holmgren from Day 1, hated Shurmur from Day 1, etc.) I just think he (and many of the commenters here) are missing the boat on Weeden so I feel a duty to stand up for the man.

        • Beeej

          I agree with you. I’ve been impressed with Weeden. I see a lot of upside and he has been way better than every other stiff we’ve had at the QB position since 99′. Tim Couch Maker’s Mark DRINK!!!

          • actovegin1armstrong

            I have never been very fond of any quarterback other than Bernie.
            I do not like QB’s in general, but Couch was not that bad.
            He had talent, but he was thrown into a no win situation.

          • Beeej

            Agreed re: Couch. The kid was thrown into a meat grinder. The O-line was terrible. The team was nonexistent the year before, and I believe he set the record for sacks and hits two years in a row. I bet he is still hearing footsteps. We should have used the pick on the best left tackle in the draft.

        • actovegin1armstrong

          Bry-ki,
          It is too early to throw in the towel on Weeden, I commend you for standing up for him.

      • Believelander

        It’s ok, Tony Grossi changed his name to Cleveland Frowns. That shit’s legal.

    • Believelander

      Couldn’t agree more that the tone at this blog lacks all perspective. It’s pretty clear that this is all an attempt to turn everyone in Cleveland into a LeBron James fan.

      • Hopwin

        You just gave me a raging LeBroner.

    • ClevelandFrowns

      Throwing for 300 yards in a game like yesterday’s is meaningless. Even more so in an offense that drops back 60 times a game. As you note, he is “throwing the ball a ton, usually in situations where his team is trailing.” In how many of those situations is his team trailing precisely because of his own play?

      • Bryan

        I actually agree that Weeden stats got some padding in the Giants game. But that is not true in Baltimore and Cincy. Every throw he made in those two games game with the game still in the balance.

        I would also add that the Browns have been losing in nearly every game for 13 years running now, and despite this fact previous QBs still couldn’t throw for 300 yards regularly. Weeden has given our offense a vertical dimension for the first time in years. For example, McCoy average 8 yard per attempt only twice all last year, with a high of 8.29. Weeden, in 5 games, has been above McCoy’s high of 8.29 twice (8.31 with Giants and 8.70 with Cinci).

        I am not asking anyone to say Weeden is 100% the solution. I am just asking people to acknowledge that he is a clear improvement over what we had previously, and that he has potential.

  • AG

    I’ll be honest, when I first started reading this site I thought it had an overly negative tone. Sure the Browns were a very young team, but they had to be an improvement over last years squad… right? If you are Haslam, how do you not fire everyone in the Front office and the head coach? If anything, they have clearly shown that they are going backwards. Shurmur angers me to no end. It seems clear to me that winning 3 games would be a miracle at this point. If we are going to suck, we might as well go all the way and get that 0-16. Then we will have truly hit bottom and anything will seem like an improvement. Great article.

  • http://twitter.com/SadFactory Factory of Sadness

    “Yes Weeden hit a wide open Josh Gordon for two touchdowns on throws that Derek Anderson would have made, too.” – Man, I like you, but this is bullshit.

    • dubbythe1

      everyone is allowed hyperbole on occasion.

      • eldaveablo

        So, is this you using hyperbole when you say “on occasion”?

        • ClevelandFrowns

          Hyperbole is great when used properly of course, but someone needs to explain how it at all describes the Weeden/D.A. comparison made here.

          • some guy

            they both throw hyper ball-y?

          • actovegin1armstrong

            Exactly Frownie, we can start comparing Weeden with DA when Weeden makes his first Pro Bowl.

    • ClevelandFrowns

      Hmmm. You might be too young to remember, but in 2007 D.A. made the Pro Bowl.

      • Believelander

        And he did it overthrowing wide open receivers by 10 yards. We had a pitiful weak schedule that season, and after about 10-11 weeks, Derek Anderson tape existed and his career immediately and irrevocably plummeted into the toilet forever.

    • Kamov

      There is at least s 50/50 chance Derek Anderson would have easily connected on those throws. The other 50 percent of the time is when he hits a seagull flying over the stadium. Exciting times with DA!

      • dubbythe1

        I’m somehow reminded of the sequel to Major League in which the rookie catcher had to recite the Playboy Playmate’s turn-ons when attempting to toss back to the mound.

  • Beeej

    Watched the game (as per usual) while doing a number of other things that were productive and beneficial to me (unlike watching the Browns). Does anyone know how many times GLittle was targeted? I saw one pass thrown to him. It hit him in the hands, and he dropped it. I suppose I could look it up.

    • thatsfine

      I can’t remember which site I saw it on, but 2 targets is what I read. I think Weeden also commented on this after the game and said not to read anything into it.

  • GrandRapidsRustlers

    There is no way that is the first 0-5 start of the expansion era.

    This can’t be true…

    /Runs to the Internet

    Great job Pat! You did it!

    • http://twitter.com/JRichTCF Jeff Rich

      Other than this one?

      • GrandRapidsRustlers

        Shit. Your Internet works better than mine.

        All these coaching names and no mention of Chris Palmer?

        He won twice with that team!

  • Harbaugh Handshakes

    Yeah I think you’re beiing tough on Weeden.Both TD throws to Gordon were perfect on the money throws. Bottom line is we are not running the ball enough, I used to think it was b/c we were playing from behind but even with a lead the guy is throwing the ball. I could of understood a pass on the 3rd down and 1 play, but only if it involved play action to Trent Richardson who was not even on the field.

    I just don’t understand the over the top attack on Weeden. Shurmur/Holmgren yes Weeden I don’t get.

    • ClevelandFrowns

      Call me crazy, but I expect most NFL quarterbacks to be able to make “perfect on the money throws” to wide open receivers.

      Also: http://espn.go.com/nfl/qbr

      • AlvaroEspinoza10

        in fairness to Weeden, according to QBR ranking, he was of course ranked last in week 1, but after that:
        week 2: 17
        week 3: 28
        week 4: 28
        week 5: 17

        so thats an average of #22.5 aside from historically bad week 1. #28 two weeks in a row is not a ringing endorsement. but just sayin.

        He might not be the answer to win a super bowl, but he’s better than Chips McCoy and seems to able to make more of the throws than DA could (short passes in flat). Who’s the best QB we’ve had in the expansion era? I think that question must be answered before realistic expectations can be placed on Weeden.

        He got nowhere near the credit he deserved for bouncing back in week 2 mentally after a horrid week 1. All we can ask is that he improves each week and that we ultimately get a coach who can actually use players’ specific skill sets. So far I’ve seen enough to be satisfied. For now.

        #BW3

        • Believelander

          Yeah, outside of Weeden’s disastrous first NFL performance in a game where everything was going wrong and the offense couldn’t keep him off his back, and Shurmur never considered putting in Chips just to bail the kid out because he was getting crushed by a really good, attack mode type of defense, he’s posted an 81.5 RAT over the last 4 games. The biggest problem with the efficiency-driven QBR is that, while RAT (passer rating) can be tipped by factors such as receiver yards after catch and other things, QBR leans even more heavily on non-QB factors and puts even more weight on efficiency, which tends to drive elite QBs (who have the weight of games put on their shoulders) down the rankings. Not that Weeden is an elite QB, he’s a rookie making a ton of mistakes, but with the time-tested passer rating stat, he’s been generating production since week 1.

          Can’t wait to see how well the guy can do in a season with a competent staff above him that doesn’t put him in the position to fail.

        • actovegin1armstrong

          Alvaro my drunken compadre, Weeden bounced back so easily from the deplorable 17 passer rating of week one because he had fun losing.

      • Believelander

        You mean the QBR stat that has #1 the historically mediocre quarterback Alex Smith, who, while having his best season to date, is still underwhelmingly being asked to game manage on a team with a literal embarrassment of weaponry surrounding him on offense. Your QBR stat heavily favors efficiency numbers. Efficiency is a good thing, but there are so many better quarterbacks listed lower than Smith on this chart that using it as a metric of how good the QB is is laughable. They should rename this metric QBE for ‘quarterback efficiency’ because that’s about all it’s good for.

  • zarathustra

    I don’t know how you can criticize Jauron. He was coach of the year once you know. As Browns fans we should be thankful for all of the head coaching experience we have on the sidelines.

    • zarathustra

      oh, I forgot: in holmgren we trust

    • actovegin1armstrong

      Right zara,
      Jauron was coach of the year.
      Derek Anderson made the Pro Bowl.
      Trent Dilfer won a Super Bowl.

      Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while.

      • Kamov

        The Browns need to get some squirrels with good vision. What happened to that one that scored a touchdown for us?

    • Believelander

      Mangini +3

      vs

      Childress +2
      Jauron +2
      Shurmur -9

      hmm

  • http://twitter.com/cpmack Chris M

    anybody who tells you that Weeden has shown anything that Derek Anderson didn’t show when he was four years younger is just making things up.

    Derek Anderson has never completed a pass to the flat. It looks like this is Weeden’s bread and butter so far. It’s not a bad thing. When Richardson gets the ball in space, obviously good things happen.

    Shurmur should get killed for having Richardson sit on EVERY 3rd down. I don’t think he understands how blatantly obvious it is that he plans to throw when Ogbonnaya is in the game. He has exactly 2 rushing attempts in 4 games played. Think about how often you see Ogbonnaya in the game on 3rd down, and it’s easy to guess that they throw the ball about 96% of the time.

    • GrandRapidsRustlers

      The flip side of this is if Pat actually called a draw to Chris he would run until he tripped over the goal line.

      I almost can’t wait to see what he does on Sunday.

      • http://twitter.com/cpmack Chris M

        Yeah, but his line of thinking is something comparable to this:

        “Well, I know that they know that I know that I always call passes with Ogbonnaya in the game, so they’re expecting a run. Well I’m going to pass it”

    • nj0

      ” I don’t think he understands how blatantly obvious it is that he plans to throw when Ogbonnaya is in the game. He has exactly 2 rushing attempts in 4 games played.”

      That is very disturbing. But not surprising. We’ve heard this sort of thing before…

      “Writing about Cleveland’s offense leads me to a game I play every week at NFL Films. I sit in my office in Mt Laurel, N.J., put the Browns’ attack on my screen and call a friend who was a coach in the league, but is now in between successes. I tell my friend the personnel group, the formation, where the ball is located on the field and what hash mark and describe the motion — if there is any — and ask him to tell me the exact play that will be run. He is correct about 95 percent of the time. No lie. The Browns are so integrated into the West Coast system that their predictability is becoming legendary around the league.”

      • actovegin1armstrong

        njo,
        Please take the point and lead this expedition.
        Alright, we kidnap the Shurmie, put him in a burlap sack and hide him in the bargain bin at a Costco.
        When he finally does work his way out, Bupa manages to very convincingly tell him that Dick Jauron needs him to help find the extra-large bottles of cherry flavored Geritol.
        Shurmie then wanders the store aimlessly like a lost child for six months, living off the samples and gazing at the rotisserie chicken for days on end.
        Then we have your friend go through the motions, learning to act confused and clueless on the sideline.
        We replace Shurmie with your friend.

        Problem solved, the Frownies save the Browns.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/PKDAN27KKLVMMNKU2CFTIDFXAY Deputy Glitters

    I went to the game yesterday. AMA

    • some guy

      Was anyone worried when the Giants were down by 14? The place seemed quiet but you had to know…

      • http://profile.yahoo.com/PKDAN27KKLVMMNKU2CFTIDFXAY Deputy Glitters

        I honestly felt like they were a little concerned up until the 3rd and 1 INT. I went by myself and the Giants fans around me were pretty friendly and talkative. No one could understand why we didn’t just keep running the ball.

        • CleveLandThatILove

          We don’t understand it either.

  • Chris P.

    Although I generally agree with the idea that Weeden isn’t making many good decisions out there, I am loathe to put too much on him. I mean, as I’ve said, when your dumpster is on fire, the composition of the flaming refuse isn’t your big worry.

    Once the fire is out, we can assess the charred remains of what we have left.

    I’m working on the following math/physics problems

    Momentum = Mass * Velocity

    mass = 48 years of craptitude and chief wahoo
    velocity = terminal velocity

    Then how to resolve

    Momentum^nth power = 2012Browns

    where

    n=nuclear powered dumpster fire

    I’m pretty sure 2012Browns = 3rd ring of Dante’s pit, but we’ll see

    • Beeej

      I think you forgot to carry the 1. Otherwise, the math looks solid.

      • Chris P.

        I had to fudge the numbers.

        Every time I carry the one we hand it off to a tight end.

        • Beeej

          That made my day. Ahhhhzoooogas to you my friend.

      • dubbythe1

        We are Browns, we dont carry the 1, we throw it to the other guys…

    • Ess Eh

      Solid work, although I would have went with an Arrhenius equation to dumpster fire analogy.

  • dubbythe1

    Our (young) linebackers did not maintain their gaps, they were almost always caught (and blocked) out of position. Our secondary is too short, matter of fact our entire D is undersized. If I may tear a page from superfan’s book, Hopefully with returns from suspensions/injury we will see a better product. I am skeptical but hopeful, interested in seeing progress from the young guys.

    Weeden does what almost every 1st year QB has done forever, locks onto his first read and stares him down into oblivion. I do expect this to improve, as I expect chemistry to improve, Gordons routes to improve, and Norwood to blow up.

    WE DO NOT RUN T RICH ENOUGH…. Why invest so heavily in the draft toward getting this guy if you are not going to utilize him?

    Our weakest link in this team is our Head Coach, after that there are many small flaws, but for a young team poised to grow together, we are one really good coach away from becoming something special.

    • http://profile.yahoo.com/PKDAN27KKLVMMNKU2CFTIDFXAY Deputy Glitters

      “Our (young) linebackers did not maintain their gaps”

      You should have seen it from my endzone view. That game really fell apart once Jackson left.

      • Believelander

        I was surprised first at how much the Dimitri Patterson injury led to our secondary collapsing, but nothing could prepare us for the result of DQ52 going down.

  • BIKI024

    i’ve written off the Browns over 4.5 as a big phat L, but hopefully a max play on the J-E-T-S jets Jets JETS should help alleviate the burn.

    re: Weeden, i think it’s way too early to compare him to D.A, who had 3 NFL seasons as a clip holder before his fluke season he parlayed into $18m guaranteed, not to mention that D.A threw a much higher percentage of INT’s in college than Weeden did. and then we all have heard about how many picks most stud QBs threw their rookie years. lookin forward to him having a good week of practice and putting up a good game at home verse Cinci, who Frownie believes has one of the worst secondaries in the NFL.

    re: defense. will be nice to get Haden back for the game, we’ll see how we do

    • actovegin1armstrong

      Third ranked?
      I like Haden a lot, but he makes too many mistakes to be the third best corner. He may be there soon, but it is hard for me to see him that highly ranked now.
      Also, there is a big drop-off after Revis Island.

      What about Asomuga?
      Woodson?
      Bailey?
      Joseph?

      • Believelander

        Johnathan Joseph, maybe. Nnamdi Asomugha, oddly, I would disagree, and neither Champ Bailey not Charles Woodson is nearly the player they once were.

        If Haden comes back focused and continues to improve his craft, I think he will have surpassed Nnamdi Asomugha and Johnathan Joseph by season’s end. None of the 4 corners you mentioned are spring chickens, and they are getting beat (yes, even Asomugha) because they’re just not as young as they used to be.

        Now, Dominique Rogers-Cromartie or his cousin Antonio Cromartie, are both names more current to the discussion. Carlos Rogers. Lardarius Webb. There are others you could rank and debate til the end of the day. But Haden is definitely in that upper echelon, that layer of cream just below the 1 or 2 that you have that you can say are The Best.

    • Believelander

      The fact that I’m agreeing with you more frequently than Frownie has given me an ear infection. I don’t understand.

      Oh also the Jets suck. Much love brother ;)

  • rodofdisaster

    I was at the game yesterday with @jimkanicki, pate and my son (a Giants fan through and through).

    I wouldn’t say that there was panic amongst the Giants fans down 14-0. Had this been the Jets, they would have been throwing beer and beating each other up. My brother had the Giants in his survivor pool and texted me:

    “Giants need to find a way to stop Richardson long enough for Shurmur to f**k it up”.

    Here’s what I noticed:

    1) The Browns’ offensive line was outstanding. Yes, there were some penalties here and there but 5.5 yards per carry and keeping Weeden upright were not small tasks. I did notice Ben Watson being pushed back into the backfield again but this was a tremendous performance by the front 5.

    2) Last week I was called out for being down on TJ Ward. Well, I was wrong. Both he AND Usama Young are atrocious. Could we play with any poorer tackling ability?

    3) The Browns secondary does look disorganized in the red zone. There’s a lot of presnap shuffling and it doesn’t look intentional to suggest they’re doing anything other than trying to get organized.

    4) Eli Manning didn’t face a 3rd and 7+ through the first half (haven’t analyzed second half yet). For that matter, he also only faced four third downs at all in the first half.

    5) Once DQ52 left the game, Robertson was really targeted and struggled.

    6) From my vantage point, I pointed out several times when the Browns seemed to have either a significant speed or size mismatch on the outside only to see Weeden not even look in that direction much less change the play. It seems as if Shurmur isn’t allowing Weeden to audible either. I only counted four McCoy audibles all of last season.

    7) The Browns obviously got away from running the football in the second half to some degree. That might have been more because they were so far behind but that wasn’t good.

    8) Weeden. I don’t know that I can criticize him except to say that both interceptions were just AWFUL. They were completely on him. For that matter, for a guy who’s been playing QB his whole life, how do you NOT KNOW that you can’t pass the ball forward twice on the same play!?!?!

    9) Ogbonnaya- I know a lot of people don’t like him and there’s tons of moaning about not putting TRich in the game (from me included) but I don’t think that Ogbonnaya can be criticized for his play. Yes, TRich is a better football player but Ogbonnaya has done well as a situational back and he made a huge play right before the first interception. Can’t fault him for that.

    10) For the record there were some screens and draws in the game plan yesterday. The Browns just didn’t do enough of anything to control the clock.

    11) I used to think that every time Josh Cribbs would touch the ball something great might happen. Now, I am starting to worry that something great or cataclysmic might happen.

    12) Kanicki noticed that Weeden spent a lot of time alone on the sideline. I don’t know what that means necessarily but you’d like to think he’d be talking to Cavanaugh and strategizing for his next possession.

    13) Every answer in the universe is in that play card. Pat Shurmur is so afraid of someone reading his lips that he’s got Weeden covering his mouth too. Hey Pat, here’s an observation: You don’t need to tell anyone what you’re running. They’ll stop it 9 times out of 10 out of predictability. Let them read your lips. It doesn’t matter.

    Still sorting through ideas for X’s and O’s….

    • deputyglitters

      Did you go to Manny’s on Second on Saturday?

      • https://twitter.com/jimkanicki jimkanicki

        we were at j. timothys in plainville ct (watching wvu/texas). per rod, the best wings in the state and now pateslvrblk and i can attest.

        i was surprised by the number of people wearing browns colors… decent turnout.

        • actovegin1armstrong

          Please do not take this as an insult, but the best wings in Ct?
          Is that like the best ski resort in Hawaii?

          When I am traveling, I always sneak some blazing hot Ecuadorian Lemon Peppers, Seranos, or Habanero peppers in with me when I go out to eat.
          I usually take one taste and then I start chopping some fresh, hot peppers at the table to fix my meal.

        • Deputy Glitters

          Nice. Hanford Dixon and Eric Metcalf were at Manny’s. I was impressed by how friendly and casual they were – hanging out, drinking beer, eating wings and signing whatever you asked them to sign, while watching the games.

    • dubbythe1

      Your brother’s text is epic…DRINK!!!

    • dubbythe1

      Also re: Ogbonnaya, I dont think anyone is criticizing him for his play, but for the fact that everyone knows whats going to happen. If our offense is 90% predictable normally, it becomes 98% predictable with Oggie in there, and that is on the coach.

  • Leftyjsf

    Maybe because the stats show Weeden is the worst qb under two metrics that measure qb’s (Rating and QBR)? Unfortunately I watched Luck drive the Colts down the field for the win and thought wow, I have no faith that Weeden could do this. Throw all the 300 yd games you want. Wins matter in this league.

    Where the h is Hardesty? As much as I think he will be on the first train outta here next year, why not sprinkle him in to at least try to keep d on its toes (i.e. t rich run, obie pass).

  • http://twitter.com/mjh4259 Mary

    Ohio is the birthplace of coaches. Ann Arbor, Michigan, is the birthplace of Shurmur. Enough said.

    • rgrunds

      Ohio is the focus of FBI investigations and jailed judges. Ann Arbor Michigan is where Robert Frost taught.

      To get into Ohio State you HAVE to have a “D” average.

      Go Blue.

      • Alexb

        Michigan? where’s that? oh…that place up North that sucks balls and nothing of any consequence happens there ever?

        can i get mugged?

        • Believelander

          You can in Michigan.

        • rgrunds

          Sure you can get mugged. Just go to a bar in Columbus.

      • Believelander

        Michigan is a post-apocalyptic nuclear wasteland. Fact.

        Oh wait, nevermind. That’s just Detroit.

      • Jim

        Ann Arbor smells like hot dog water. So there’s that.

        • rgrunds

          Columbus smells like Red Man Chewing Tobacco.

          Sockittoemstate. Gao bucks.

      • http://twitter.com/cpmack Chris M

        “To get into Ohio State you HAVE to have a “D” average.”

        Quoted directly from the Mitt Romney school of debate.

  • rgrunds

    The real pivot of the game to the downside was that pass call on 3rd and 1.

    • Believelander

      It’s depressing that we didn’t T-Rich them on 3rd and 1. Could have easily been 20-10 Browns or 24-10. Bleh.

      For all the positives I see in Weeden, one thing he has to get better at is throwing on the move. Even the (great) quintessential pocket passers have the body control to throw accurately and with power while scrambling.

      • rgrunds

        Thank you. See FrOrange? Someone agrees with me. You can’t stop us.

        blah blah

      • Beeej

        How about play action with T Rich on 3rd and 1? Nah! That would too crazy.

  • Alexb

    frownie, i have no real opinion about Gruden other than if he wants to come coach here throw him the whistle and let him try to run this 3 ring for awhile. But Cowher? You were kidding right? If Bill Cowher is willing to come here why the fuck would Cleveland fans not be genuflecting to the gods? I’m not suggesting we’re going to the superbowl within two years of his arrival but come the fuck on…..he is an AFC North Asgardian god. The guy knows this division and how you have to build a team to compete in it. My ONLY apprehension to bringing him in is that he would likely dismantle our 4-3 and start over and I’m kind of liking our ability to pressure the QB now. But still, i would accept it if he was wanting to come here.

    • bupalos

      barf

  • Believelander

    Frownie, I find it odd that you want to criticize Tony Grossi when your Browns and Cavs coverage over the last year emulates him so uncannily.

  • Believelander

    “It’s the first 0-5 start of the expansion era”

    This is true, except for when it isn’t, which is today, when it’s the second 0-5 start of the expansion era. Now if they get to 0-8, that would be an expansion first, surpassing the ’99 Browns’ 0-7 start. If they break Tim Couch’s record I’ll pour out a Maker’s Mark for my homie.

  • Alexb

    i get it, he’s an ex steeler…so what? He’s the reason the steel curtain came back. Mike Tomlin is still to this day enjoying success due to the players and system that Cowher brought implimented. Not taking anything from Tomlin but the backbone of his SB teams were all Cowher era guys. Cowher built the meanest team in football…and the Ravens copied him and built an equally mean team. And guess what….those two teams have dominated the AFC North for how many fucking years now? I’m tired of them but guess what they ain’t goin out unless knocked out. Fucking Ray ray and Harrisson/Woodly will try to play into their 40′s and unless someone shows them the door they will still monopolize the North.

    • Believelander

      Wonder if Haslam was there when Cowher was still around. I certainly don’t think Bill Cowher was some titan of a coach, but he’s certainly a very good one. The oddest thing about him is that without his quintessential scowl, you would never mark him for a coach. He just has the look and build of a smaller, unimpressive, and forgettable guy. Except for that certain look, like he’s always in pain but YOU are always in danger of being in pain. I always thought it funny that he otherwise looked like a guy who belongs behind a desk, one of those talking head announcers, but now that he’s one of them, he looks completely out of place like he belongs on the football field.

      • actovegin1armstrong

        Cower did play linebacker for the Browns, so he has that going for him.

        • Alexb

          which is exactly why he can get in those guys faces and they naturally respect him, cause he played in the trenches…he wasn’t a kicker. If Cowher just makes us “mean”, i’m happy…i don’t even care about winning. If NFL teams dread coming to Cleveland cause they know it’s gonna be a street fight…..mission accomplished.

          • acto

            If the Browns bring in Cohwer we should all grow goofy mustaches, p_4 andCLTIL too.

  • AlvaroEspinoza10

    Grossi this morning gives Mangini props for how he handled the Cleveland media:

    “To his credit, Eric Mangini never let the media see him sweat. He was unfailingly respectful right to the very end.”

    http://espncleveland.com/common/more.php?m=49&action=blog&r=17&post_id=6201

    the man has no shame

    • Hopwin

      Wow. Just wow.

    • Shadow_play

      He should have wrote “Mangini was respectful to the end despite the fact that I was a complete assshole from the beginning.”

      • Believelander

        See, that’s why sites like Deadspin are so enjoyable. They take shots at people, but they also take shots at themselves. I think this is about as far as Grossi will backtrack on his Mangini hate (remember after Coach got canned how Grossi said Shurmur couldn’t be worse?). It’s a shame. If he owned the mistake, I would have a totally different outlook on the guy.

  • Shadow_play

    I don’t understand why the 3rd and 1 play is an either/or argument when it comes to placing the blame. Was it Shurmur’s bad call or was it Weeden’s bad throw? It was both. Pass if you want to Shurmur, but at least try to disguise the play. Weeden toss it away if you must and fall back on Dawson’s leg for some points. But if you really want to lay some blame then ultimately it does go back to Shurmur. Wasn’t he touted as a QB developer? Wasn’t he a QB coach for a number of seasons? So ultimately it’s on him to get Weeden to a professional level. Unfortuantely Shurmur isn’t up to the task. Nor is he up to the task in coaching the rest of this team. He never was and due to the lame duck nature of this season he won’t be any time soon. Whatever talent this team may have is being consumed by the colossal dumpster fire which is threatening to move beyond the back-alley to rage longer and larger than the Great London Fire of 1666.

    • acto

      Shadow,
      Big “like” for going with the Great London Fire of !666, instead of the obligatory Chicago Fire of 1871.
      The London fire destroyed more than 90% of the city’s homes within the old roman wall.
      Great choice!

      • Shadow_play

        This is truly a Dumpster Fire of Epic Proportions. Another few weeks and I will compare the burning to Pompeii and Mt. Vesuvius.

        • actovegin1armstrong

          Great, then at 0-16 you may use Krakatoa!

          • Believelander

            Won’t happen. Chiefs are a bigger dumpster fire than us. They were forced to play Brady Fucking Quinn.

          • Shadow_play

            I’m probably going to the Chiefs-Browns game. Those Dumpster fires sure will keep me warm from the December Lake.

          • acto

            BFQ, has bigger biceps than RG3 and Tim Couch. He could succeed in the right system.

  • CleveLandThatILove

    Not a peep from Holmgren. Would it be any different if Jimmy were not taking the reins in one week? Doubt it.

    • dubbythe1

      I heard Holmgren is enjoying some (extended) time on the West Coast…

  • Ohiakotan

    For those interested (sorry if anyone previously posted about this), Cleveland Public Theater is currently featuring a play by Cleveland native, Eric Schmiedl, called “The Kardiac Kid.” It focuses on the 1980 Browns season, through the eyes of four individuals. It is pretty well done and enlightening for those who were not alive to experience Red Right 88, though it might have been easier for me to watch because I did not have to relive it as complete disappointment.

  • dwhalen5

    tony grossi needs punched in his hypocritical, snarky, condescending, egotistical mouth. that’s all, happy tuesday.

  • Jeff

    In the dumpster: When you’re wearing your Browns jersey at Giants Stadium and instead of busting your balls, he tries to find something nice to say. Dumpster on fire: The only thing he can think of to say is, “The Browns, uh . . . have really great fans.”

  • http://twitter.com/cpmack Chris M

    Sorry if I’m rewriting someone’s comment, but people giving Shurmur shit over 3rd and 1 have to stop already. When you give up 41 points and 500+ yards, a single 3rd and 1 play call isn’t the issue here.

    • bupalos

      The worst thing is that it’s morphed into yet another stupid “you should have called X when you called Y.” There is nothing wrong with passing on 3rd down, even when the line seems to be moving people around pretty well.

      But the reason it really is another Shurmur-killer for me is just the use of personell. I just don’t get why Richardson isn’t on the field there.

      • http://twitter.com/cpmack Chris M

        Exactly. Question him for taking Richardson out, but not for the play he called.

        • Bronx Cheer

          The play call would have been better, but still not great, with Richardson in an offset backfield. He serves less of a function as a run decoy if you put him in an offset alignment. He is more of a running threat, but you are very unlikely to call a pitch, sprint draw, or counter (aren’t these basically the only running plays you have from this formation?) on 3rd and 1 that close to the end zone.

          I am just some dude in my parent’s basement typing in my PJs, but I think your playcalling options are either (1) play action or (2) motion Cameron out wide outside Gordon to a 4 wide formation and take what the defensive matchups give.

      • Bronx Cheer

        Not just Richardson instead of Ogby, but Ogby plus the offset RB formation. There is zero chance of a run in that alignment and personnel and the NYGs defensed it as such.

        Passing is fine – just do so with play action to a RB who actually, you know, will run the ball on occasion.

    • nj0

      While I agree with you that murdering him over it is ridiculous, I do think it is fair criticism (though somewhat mmqbish).

      I think people latch onto these types of micro-level things simply because they’re indicative of our macro-level failures. Sure, questioning one play call is silly, but it’s something to point to rather than simply saying Shurmur is bad at play calling.

  • Bronx Cheer

    Now for a “glass half full” comment.

    I was really irked by Heckert spending a 3rd rounder on Hughes instead of a DB or WR, but I am starting to see the importance of DT depth. Not only are Hughes and Winn showing much more ability than I expected, but the drop off in play quality for those two guys as a game progresses is insanely large. It seems like weekly they make some great plays in their first couple of snaps and then disappear entirely. Taylor can’t get back fast enough to give us a more solid DT rotation.

    Just for my edification, typically home many DTs does a typical good front four rotate in? How are the snaps usually broken down? Would it be unreasonable for Rubin’s and Taylor’s snap shares to be in the 55-60% range with the rookies taking the balance? As it stands now, Rubin is logging like 75+% snaps and the rookies are both in the 50-60% range.

    • Believelander

      There’s no set package from team to team. It’s entirely based upon depth, ability, and stamina of your linemen. It also depends on down and distance, which naturally influences the packages you check in for run stopping, pass rushing, etc. But I would expect that in a “D Line by Committee” rotation, everyone should be collecting between forty and seventy five percent of the snaps unless you have one of those rare ultrafreaks like Julius Peppers who is just so overpowering and athletic that he has a bigger battery, and the same effort takes less out of him on each play.

      And honestly, as we realistically only have 3 noteworthy men to play the middle of that line, that’s an average of 67% snaps per head, which is probably going to lead to some tuckering out. Billy Winn is more athletic than the other two guys but he’s also smaller, so those hulking offensive linemen are going to drain his gas tank a little more quickly than bigger, more overpowering guys. When Taylor gets back, the middle of our line could really start to cause chaos for four quarters of football.

  • NeedsFoodBadly

    Frowns, I hope you have an unlisted number: http://www.waitingfornextyear.com/2012/10/nfl-news-pat-shurmur-calling-and-emailing-critical-reporters/

    There are no words to describe the extent to which I find that report hilarious.

  • Sneeda

    Bradshaw over the hill at the prime age of 26? Last I checked this is the first time in his career he has been given the majority workload, making him “younger” than 26, right?

    Young only intercepts because the refs let him get away with one….yeah that never happens to any other team. Somethings tells me that if NYG had intercepted on a similar type play, it would have been labeled by you as “crafty” “more physically” “outsmarting the refs” “outcoaching” “poorly thrown ball”…but here it is simply an oversight by an official that gave the Browns a break.

    Weeden’s 2 TD passes could have been made by anyone…WR is WIDE open. Was he wide open because of a great play call, good route, or blown coverage? OBVIOUSLY blown coverage!

    4th and 1 is the same as 4th and 5? So if you are 40 feet away and the light turns yellow and you go…you should also go when you are 200 feet away…6 one, half dozen the other.

    So now we got Cincy again who “suffered the unimaginable experience of a home loss to a team that plays under a rookie head coach with a rookie starting quarterback”. I mean clearly whatever happens in this game win or lose we can point to this and spin it either way…1. Browns win, but Cincy just lost to a rookie and a rookie, so who cares we still suck 2. Browns lose, at home just after Cincy lost to a rookie and a rookie, we suck even worse. So what does this mean for the Packers who just lost to a rookie and a rookie…or does it not matter because the “wahoo curse” doesn’t apply?

  • Believelander
  • ChuckKoz

    give me Titans +5.5 (Steelers) and Colorado +23 (ASU) – both on Thursday night

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