Mike Holmgren, Umbrella Drinks, and What the Future Is All About

by Cleveland Frowns on October 26, 2012

I.e., umbrella drinks.

As if Mike Holmgren’s tenure in Cleveland could have ended any other way:

“Depending on where I am and the weather, I’m going to ride my motorcycle a lot. Perhaps go to the beach a little bit, go to Hawaii. … Like I said, I think Kathy and I are going to go someplace where it’s warm, with those little drinks with the umbrellas in it and then kind of think about what the future is all about.”

And that’s how a “credible, serious leader” writes the final chapter of Mangenius Interrupted.

Well done, Mr. Holmgren. Well done, Mr. Lerner. Well done, Cleveland.

Given what these two made off with, it’ll be a wonder if there’s any city left by the time Jimmy Haslam is through. And it would be a shock if Haslam hasn’t already been in touch with Dan Gilbert about ballot initiatives.

—————

Here’s another final word on Holmgren’s press conference from an incredibly bitter Tony Grossi;

And the New Yorker’s endorsement of President Obama for re-election is a must read.

Which is all for this week other than the football picks in the Cheddar Bay open thread. Hope everyone’s weekend gets off to a decent start and we’ll be back on Sunday for Shurmurball.

  • ClevelandFrowns

    So I was having a good cry and looking at the links in the Mangenius Interrupted posts and was reminded that I wrote the following here on 12/18/09 in response to NFL.com’s Jason La Canfora having written that Holmgren’s best bet was to: “reach back to his Bill Walsh/West Coast family** tree for his coach, seeking someone who shares the same philosophies, terminology, vernacular and football ideology.” — http://blogs.nfl.com/2009/12/16/holmgrens-arrival-would-likely-mean-end-for-mangini/

    “Terminology? Vernacular? Don’t these people speak English? And why again do football philosophies have to be so unchangeable and incompatible? Also, who’s the hot new coach from this “West Coast family tree,” anyway? Or are we going to make one up? To keep it in the family? Another Bad Creation?” — http://www.clevelandfrowns.com/2009/12/questions-about-a-dilemma-and-free-agent-superstar-football-czars/

    Please drop off my Pulitzer at the Map Room.

    Do Pulitzers look like the Stanley Cup? How much whiskey fits in them?

    • nj0

      They’re coasters.

    • http://www.clevelandfrowns.com/ Cleveland Frowns

      Reposting response to Humbolt’s comment below because I can’t get Disqus to link up properly:

      “I’m curious as to what red flags you saw at the time, Pete. Don’t think I was reading your blog then, but I’d be impressed if you called your shot on Holmgren. If you have links at the ready I’d like to check them out.”

      If you say so. Get ready to be impressed.

      This one is from December 17 2009:

      http://www.clevelandfrowns.com/2009/12/a-question-about-mike-holmgren-the-cleveland-browns-west-coast-football-and-the-afc-north/

      “[I]f we assume all that, we can then ask why Randy Lerner would pay Mike Holmgren $10 million a year to occupy a position where he’s never had any substantial success, to bring a “West Coast” style to a team that plays in the most smashmouth division in the NFL, the AFC North. And to do this at the expense of firing a young, hungry and well-trained first-year head coach who, after a painful but necessary housecleaning process, appears to have affected a turnaround in which his team most recently turned in the most effective AFC North-style smashmouth performance that Cleveland has seen in how long? A decade?

      “For a guy who by all accounts is not wanted back in Seattle, who’s never had any success as head of football operations anywhere else, to bring a “West Coast” style to the smashmouth AFC North, at the very same time that current Seattle Seahawks head coach Jim Mora is making news for telling his own team, the team that Holmgren built, that it’s known around the league as being “soft”?

      “Does this bother anyone else? Does it bother anyone else a lot?”

      There’s also the post that I quoted in the first comment to this post — written the next day, December 18, 2009 — where I raised questions about the talk about “philosophical differences,” wondered who the “hot new West Coast Family coach” could be, and suggested that Holmgren was likely to just “make one up,” to “keep it in the family.”

      http://www.clevelandfrowns.com/2009/12/questions-about-a-dilemma-and-free-agent-superstar-football-czars/

      And here’s one from December 2010, just before Holmgren dropped the axe on Mangini, ‘In Holmgren We Trust’ (while Bob LaMonte lurks):

      Back on earth, we’re having an especially hard time trying to understand why the combination of the “always lurking powerbroker” and the “whatever Holmgren decides to do is fine” crowd in Cleveland is anything other than completely terrifying.

      http://www.clevelandfrowns.com/2010/12/in-holmgren-we-trust-while-bob-lamonte-lurks/

      Like I said, send my Pulitzer to the Map Room. I’ll have it filled with a mixture of hot rum, benzene, and liquid camphor please.

  • nj0

    U waz trollin, Holmzgrun!

  • humboldt

    Don’t you think it’s time to tone down your “hilariously bitter” haranguing of Tony Grossi, Pete? The trope is old and stale, and ignores the fact that, like Mangini, he too was undone by the toxic forces of failed leadership during the Lerner/Holmgren regime.

    Perhaps we could forge a some sort of Cheddar Bay Peace Treaty ™ and have you break biscuits together?

    • nj0

      Couldn’t disagree more. As long as Grossi continues to hack up softballs, I hope Frowns continues to knock them out of the park.

      “I’m just trying to rid the world of all these fevered egos that are tainting our collective unconscious and making us pay a higher psychic price than we imagine.”

      • humboldt

        I will acknowledge this: at the Plain Dealer Grossi seemed jejune and frankly a bit lazy towards the end of his tenure.

        However, his work on ESPN Cleveland has been excellent and incisive – his writing has been re-energized. To characterize him as ‘hacking up softballs’ is just a bizarre mis-characterization borne of the collective rage on this site.

        I’m not sure if you expect scholarly rigor from him, or hold him to a standard of tendering opinions that are never wrong, but that simply isn’t the nature of journalism, particularly in today’s media world where writers have to publish multiple stories a day and are expected to constantly “have a take”.

        • nj0

          I don’t care if it simply is the nature of journalism. Just cause he’s a hack amongst hacks doesn’t mean I should give him a pass.

        • ClevelandFrowns

          “Jejune and frankly a bit lazy” is a hell of a way to gloss over the fact that for no good reason the guy did everything he could with his bully pulpit to make sure Eric Mangini had the worst time possible here.

          Or is that just fall under the category of his having to “have a take”?

          If you’re going to carry on like this you should at least remind people that Grossi was nice to you back when you were an intern at the PD.

          • nj0

            Ouch. That must be that full disclosure I’ve heard them talk about so much lately.

          • ClevelandFrowns

            He has disclosed it before. It’s just worth a reminder here.

          • mo_by_dick

            Am I too late to talk about softball?

          • humboldt

            Oh come on Pete, you don’t need to delete my comments – nothing I’m saying is disrespectful, you just happen to disagree. Quite illiberal of you I must say, brother

          • Cranky M

            But he did recently write that Mangini, of all the coaches he has covered, never failed to be completely respectful and professional. Mayhaps he has seen the error of his ways. But probably not….

          • Believelander

            I always found it bizarre and childish that the media at large, throughout the nation, covering these sports, expects that they have some sort of right to know things that are to a greater or lesser degree corporate secrets. So what if Mangini won’t tell you whether Brady Quinn or Derek Anderson is QBing on Sunday? We’re using the term ‘QBing’ loosely and it doesn’t matter. Either way you’re going to see shitty quarterbacking. One guy is 6’6″ and can throw the ball 800 yards, the other one makes women faint. They’re still going to suck either way. Maybe by hiding the fact of which pile of suck he’s going to throw on the field, he’s trying to force the opposing team to waste preparation minutes studying both, in an attempt to give the Browns any snowball’s chance in hell of beating their opponent.

            As for Grossi being nice to Humboldt, my aunt who works for the PD says he’s a very nice person too, as do most of the media guys who know him. Doesn’t mean he didn’t spend years writing jerk hack work about Mangini because he felt the guy was a violation to his ‘access’ or something.

    • ClevelandFrowns

      One man displayed a stunning lack of integrity and honesty in the way he performed an important job, while the other didn’t, but other than that your point isn’t a bad one.

      • BIKI024

        it would be great to hear Mangini’s take on this.. while i’m sure he wanted to stay on, it seems to me from watching him nonstop on ESPN and hearing his comments about new management or ownership with other teams is that he’s a firm believer of “bringing in your own guys” and everyone from top to bottom pulling “in the same direction”.

        i think Holmgren’s response to if he felt he made a mistake in keeping Mangini an extra year was genuine, it seems to me that as a coach and being part of the coaching fraternity, he just didn’t think it was fair to cut him loose after 1 year..

        • ClevelandFrowns

          I’m talking about the difference between Grossi and Mangini but you’re right that it could apply to Holmgren as well as Grossi.

          There will never be an excuse for deciding to keep Mangini for the second year, but not a third.

          • BIKI024

            i think one excuse that isn’t really talked about much is that Holmgren really didn’t have much time to make the decision on Mangini. He got hired on 12/22, which basically only gave him 2 weeks to decide what to do. unfortunately it seems his priority was to not break the coaching fraternity code instead of wearing his Team President cap (which appears that Joe Banner has no problem wearing) to make a nice clean/ruthless break right away.

  • Bryan

    Grossi truly is incredible. He has no principles or vision. He never states what he wants for the franchise, or offers a critical lens through which recommendations that point us away from our failings can arise. Rather, he sits on his high horse and just bludgeons people opportunistically. How does this guy have a job? Does any credible NFL person like him? He is the ultimate troll. If he were born a few generations later, he would be 23 years old, living in his mom’s basement, and splitting his time evenly between trolling WFNY’s and Frowns’ comment sections.

    #TonyTrollsi

    • humboldt

      Again, I find it more than ironic that you sit in anonymity on your high horse bludgeoning Tony Grossi opportunistically

      #horsesandbayonetsandbludgeons

      • Bryan

        How am I opportunistic? I have always disliked Grossi because he is a) not very smart, b) makes weak arguments, and c) takes personal shots at people. I am consistent in my disdain for the man, not opportunistic.

        But it is true that I sit on my high horse in Frowns’ comments sections. I am very proud of that horse and the public renown it has earned me.

        • nj0

          Amen. When it comes to getting on your high horse, there is no better place than in Frowns’ comments sections.

        • actovegin1armstrong

          What kind of horse?
          I like horses.

    • Shadow_play

      Peter King likes him a lot. You can judge for yourself if he’s a “credible NFL person.”

      • BIKI024

        they were college buddies down at Ohio University

        • Shadow_play

          Yeah I thought it was something like that.

  • nj0

    Maybe this isn’t fair, but it is fun…

    Tony Grossi, Dec. 27, 2009- Hey, Bernard: Lerner needs someone to make every decision, speak for the organization and represent the franchise at league functions. I can’t think of a better candidate for that job description than Holmgren.

    Tony Grossi, Oct. 25th, 2012- Here’s a suggestion for a smart thing to happen: Immediately revoke Holmgren’s office, his lunch ticket and his parking space. His unforgivingly condescending farewell press conference, at which he blatantly flaunted his personally lucrative tenure as Lerner’s no-account surrogate, probably cost Haslam a few more season-ticket renewals from Browns fans scratching to pay for boring football, out-dated music, cell-phone usage shutdown during games, and price-gouged beverages and parking.

    • humboldt

      All that tells me is that Holmgren was a promising leader who failed, and someone reported it

      • ClevelandFrowns

        And also that someone who was in as good a position as anyone to have seen this disaster coming (and is actually paid to do just that) saw the exact opposite.

        • humboldt

          I’m curious as to what red flags you saw at the time, Pete. Don’t think I was reading your blog then, but I’d be impressed if you called your shot on Holmgren. If you have links at the ready I’d like to check them out.

          I don’t think it was unreasonable to invest hope in Holmgren/Heckert, or for journalists to give voice to the excitement of bringing a “credible leader” in to run the franchise. Randy Lerner at least attempted to test a compelling hypothesis that many fans felt worthy of undertaking. It failed, and there is of course a cautionary lesson that we should take forward. But in my opinion it’s unreasonable to argue that journalists should have universally declared it an invalid experiment at the time.

          • BIKI024

            yes it failed in terms of win/loss record, but i think there is general consensus that the roster has been reshaped nicely, particularly when it comes to the QB position.

            other than missing out on RG3, i really don’t see what else Holmgren/Heckert could’ve done in improving that position. When they came here we had no viable QB on the roster (Quinn/DA).. the FA crop was weak and Jake looked pretty good in preseason until he got hurt in the first game. fast forward 2 seasons and after they missed on RG3, they went after Weeden, and a lot of people around the league are starting to like the kid, just feel he needs to get better production from the receivers, which is obvious.

            i think the final verdict on the Holmgren Legacy will be judged in the coming years after we see if Weeds and the 35 other guys drafted/signed by the Holmgren regime in the past 3 years pays dividends.

          • ClevelandFrowns

            “I’m curious as to what red flags you saw at the time, Pete. Don’t think I was reading your blog then, but I’d be impressed if you called your shot on Holmgren. If you have links at the ready I’d like to check them out.”

            If you say so. Get ready to be impressed.

            This one is from December 17 2009:

            http://www.clevelandfrowns.com/2009/12/a-question-about-mike-holmgren-the-cleveland-browns-west-coast-football-and-the-afc-north/

            “[I]f we assume all that, we can then ask why Randy Lerner would pay Mike Holmgren $10 million a year to occupy a position where he’s never had any substantial success, to bring a “West Coast” style to a team that plays in the most smashmouth division in the NFL, the AFC North. And to do this at the expense of firing a young, hungry and well-trained first-year head coach who, after a painful but necessary housecleaning process, appears to have affected a turnaround in which his team most recently turned in the most effective AFC North-style smashmouth performance that Cleveland has seen in how long? A decade?

            “For a guy who by all accounts is not wanted back in Seattle, who’s never had any success as head of football operations anywhere else, to bring a “West Coast” style to the smashmouth AFC North, at the very same time that current Seattle Seahawks head coach Jim Mora is making news for telling his own team, the team that Holmgren built, that it’s known around the league as being “soft”?

            “Does this bother anyone else? Does it bother anyone else a lot?”

            There’s also the post that I quoted in the first comment to this post — written the next day, December 18, 2009 — where I raised questions about the talk about “philosophical differences,” wondered who the “hot new West Coast Family coach” could be, and suggested that Holmgren was likely to just “make one up,” to “keep it in the family.”

            http://www.clevelandfrowns.com/2009/12/questions-about-a-dilemma-and-free-agent-superstar-football-czars/

            And here’s one from December 2010, just before Holmgren dropped the axe on Mangini, ‘In Holmgren We Trust’ (while Bob LaMonte lurks):

            Back on earth, we’re having an especially hard time trying to understand why the combination of the “always lurking powerbroker” and the “whatever Holmgren decides to do is fine” crowd in Cleveland is anything other than completely terrifying.

            http://www.clevelandfrowns.com/2010/12/in-holmgren-we-trust-while-bob-lamonte-lurks/

            Like I said, send my Pulitzer to the Map Room. I’ll have it filled with a mixture of hot rum, benzene, and liquid camphor please.

          • humboldt

            Your soothsaying skills are second only to your thoroughgoing humility.

            No, seriously, I am impressed because you articulated many of the questions other people weren’t giving voice to, and questions I didn’t sufficiently consider myself in retrospect (even though I tend to be instinctively distrusting towards unwieldy power and influence). But show me another mainstream Cleveland journalist who was making these points at the time – it wasn’t just a dereliction of duty by Tony Grossi alone.

            Besides, you were pointing out flaws in Randy Lerner’s ‘hypothesis’ but it was still one that had a chance of succeeding at the time. It’s not as if he hired “Brownie”, the former head of FEMA during Katrina, to run a football organization. On paper, Holmgren was a credible investment, and that story needed to be told at the time as well.

            Postscript: I just realized that the Katrina mess involved a guy named Mike Brown whose nickname was “Brownie” and has become a symbol for ineptitude. Perhaps I’m starting to come around on this Wahoo curse notion…

          • actovegin1armstrong

            Frownie,
            Are you posting here as humboldt too?
            That was a bit too much of a perfect set up for your football philosophy.
            It is alright, I am on your side, you can tell me, I will keep it a secret.

            In all seriousness, (I do not like being serious), you did “call your shot”.
            Congrats Bambino.

          • Believelander

            For what it’s worth, the day before Holmgren fired Mangini, Pete told me there was “no way” he would fire him. However, I believe that may have been an intoxicating combination of wishful thinking and negative wind chill talking.

          • ClevelandFrowns

            Also misplaced good faith.

          • nj0

            Being relatively new around here, I too was curious.

            Google yourself – A Question about Mike Holmgren, the Cleveland Browns, “West Coast Football,” and the AFC North”

            Who called consistency the hobgoblin of a small mind?

          • actovegin1armstrong

            njo,
            It was Ralph Waldo Emerson.
            His take on Plato is very interesting as well.

            I have discovered only two things that are not easily cast asunder.
            Boolean Logic and The Laws of Thermodynamics.

            Everything else is a big load of Shurmie.

          • Cranky M

            I’m not certain why anybody thought Holmgren was a good idea to begin with. He had success as a coach, but was an abject failure in every other capacity. When he was given full reign in Seattle, the team went to hell. Why did anybody believe that being a good coach qualified him to be a good team president? What is the relation?

          • BIKI024

            the team went to hell? the guys he drafted or brought in were the guys he rode to the playoffs every year and to the SB (Alexander, Hasselback, Darrell Jackson, etc)

            i agree that it’s foolish for the HC to serve as GM as well, just because of the time constraints, but i think it’s overblown how “bad” he was at wearing both hats.

            it seems to me that Randy wanted to bring in a surrogate owner who had some respect in the league and could go to meetings on his behalf and then hire the right people. it seems like he hit on Heckert, but missed on Shurmur.

          • Believelander

            His draft record was pretty mediocre. Which isn’t to say he never made a good player personnel decision, but the body of work wasn’t very good.

            And you forgot Hutchinson.

            Anyway, the fact is, even if he was SuperGM in Seattle, he did a very poor job in Cleveland doing the things a team President is supposed to do.

          • Cranky M

            @ Biki: My memory isn’t the greatest, so i could be entirely wrong, but i didn’t think he drafted those guys. I thought he became the GM after they were brought in? He was responsible for drafting guys like Jerramy Stevens. Could be entirely wrong, as there’s a first time for everything, but i don’t remember him becoming the coach AND GM until after Alexander, Hasselback, etc were already there.
            I remember those Seattle teams in Holmgren’s last few years being an absolute mess.

            If that’s not the case, then take back everything i said. Although that was my intial reaction, even if it was based upon a faulty premise.

            I always fear when somebody gets appointed to a position solely because they were successful in an entirely different one.

          • BIKI024

            He as GM/HC for drafts from 99-02 was under his watch:

            2000 draft: Alexander and Jackson
            2001: traded for Hasselbeck and drafted Hutchinson and Koren Robinson, Ken Lucas and the great Heath Evans
            2002: Jeremy Stevens and Rocky Bernard

            i highly doubt they would’ve had the success they had without Alexander or Hasselbeck, but you never know..

          • Cranky M

            Well then, i definitely stand corrected. Honestly thought most of that Super Bowl team was assembled before he was handed the GM duties.

            In any case, we weren’t hiring him to be the coach OR the GM, so my original point still stands…

          • BIKI024

            yeah it seems to me that he was hired to be the surrogate owner at the owner’s meetings, and to hire the GM and Coach, as well as be the conduit to the fans from ownership. personally all i care about is who he hired as GM and Coach and it seems like he did very well on GM and fell short with the coach.

            but i think in a few years people will be happy we completely rebuilt the way we did as we should have this nucleus of 30+ guys they brought in for the long run and they’ll be winning more games than not soon enough, especially if Weeden keeps getting better.

  • p_forever

    boat drinks > umbrella drinks

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCy7s3u749Q

    • actovegin1armstrong

      p_4
      If you can step out of the Mine for a while you may want to read this.

      http://msn.foxsports.com/collegefootball/story/manti-teo-notre-dame-comforts-parents-of-dying-girl-with-letter-grief-cancer-102512

      My apologies to all if this is not an appropriate post.

      • p_forever

        It’s a million times better a post than some movie clip about boat drink (although that movie too is about friendship and pain and loss and getting through it but reaching out, not turning in).

        Thx acto

        • actovegin1armstrong

          I love our Marvelous Manatee!
          I cried like a sissy when I read that.
          His admission that he is a “knucklehead” says a lot about him and I can relate to that.
          I also try to do little bits of “good”, (nothing in comparison to his), when I can, but most of the time I am a complete buffoon.

          I would really love to see him in Brown and Orange, he plays on the important side of the ball.

          • p_forever

            I super love him too. And I cried too, of course. We’re all knuckleheads. But not everyone gets it.

  • BIKI024

    it seems to me that Grossi knows his audience and is catering to them.. the espncleveland/WKNR audience is typically already pretty bitter after listening to the garbage talent they have on there all day so why not continue to feed the fire. he has a job to do and it’s to fire up the base.

    Holmgren certainly didn’t help his cause by the Browns win/loss record and for mentioning that he was chillin on his deck in Cali when he got the call from Randy about the impending sale, or that he was looking forward to maxin and relaxin in Hawaii in the coming days/weeks, etc.

    but if you watch the presser, which i did of course, all 45 minutes of it, i think once again you will see the tone is much different than Grossi portrays.

    it is what it is

  • BIKI024

    anyone know the spread for the Revere/Copley football game tonight??

    • http://www.autismspeaks.org/ PML

      chicken wings, chili and possibly hummus

      • actovegin1armstrong

        Bravo!
        You need to Costanza that one PML.

    • ClevelandFrowns

      Hope for Revere’s sake it was 30-something. Oof.

  • Believelander

    Surprisingly, a lot of what Grossi writes parallels what you have written here, Frowns. I would definitely agree he sounds bitter, but shouldn’t we all be a little bitter that a snake oil salesman frittered away another 3 years for us? The difference is you channel your anger into sarcasm and bullet points, whereas Grossi isn’t that subtle and never has been. All in all though, the message isn’t very different and I oddly find myself agreeing with you both.

    • ClevelandFrowns

      No, there is a much bigger difference than just the sarcasm and bullet points. That difference being that I’m not the guy who used an important position at the local paper to relentlessly undermine Mangini’s tenure in Cleveland at every turn, and then relentlessly cheerled Lerner to throw a boat of cash at the priciest brand name available. I pretty much did the exact opposite of that.

      • http://www.autismspeaks.org/ PML

        You have basically been Cleveland’s William F Buckley Jr. Standing athwart and yelling stop this entire time.

      • Believelander

        Couldn’t agree more. The only thing is, the message now is the same. I’m sure Grossi is unhappy that he was so wrong; unhappy that he was so easily duped; unhappy that when he finally turned on the Lerner-Holmgren ‘brain trust’ that it cost him his job. All I’m saying is, your message and his message are the same message. You’ve had a rager for Holmgren, understandably, since he fiddle-f’d with Mangini for a year and then canned him and hired a dope to take his place. If you call the guy bitter and angry, you have to be willing to admit that you’re bitter and angry too.

        Which in turn, when you point out that Grossi is bitter and angry, the only real answer is, “well, yeah.”

        • dubbythe1

          Grossi you may argue is bitter and angry, as he changed his stance over the three year debacle, however I would argue that Frowns (among myself and others) are more frustrated than bitter or angry.

    • nj0

      Grossi sabotaged Mangini then carried water for Holmgren until ownership changed at which point Grossi commenced to kicking the fallen Walrus.

      Frowns has been consistent. Grossi has said whatever serves him just to play to the rabble.

      —If then that friend demand
      why Grossi rose against Holmgren, this is my answer:
      Not that I loved Holmgren less, but that I loved
      The Browns more!

      Sorry, not buying it.

      • ClevelandFrowns

        And this.

      • ChrisG

        “Frowns has been consistent. Grossi has said whatever serves him just to play to the rabble.”

        Hmmm, separated at birth – Grossi & Romney?

        • BIKI024

          “The fact that we are here today to debate raising America ‘s debt limit is a sign of leadership failure. It is a sign that the US Government cannot pay its own bills. It is a sign that we now depend on ongoing financial assistance from foreign countries to finance our Government’s reckless fiscal policies. Increasing America ‘s debt weakens us domestically and internationally. Leadership means that, “the buck stops here..’ Instead, Washington is shifting the burden of bad choices today onto the backs of our children and grandchildren. America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better.”

          ~ Senator Barack H.. Obama, March 2006

          • nj0

            Which raises the question: who would be a better owner of the Browns – Romney or Obama?

          • BIKI024

            well, the Patriots did make the SB 3 out of the 4 years Mitt was Governor of Mass,and won twice, so I’d have to believe he got to spend some QT with Kraft and BB during those years and may have learned a thing or two.

            as for Obama, not sure if Jerry Angelo was the greatest of mentors for the current Prez..

          • nj0

            edit: wrong place

          • Believelander

            Never mind that the nation was descending into the dumpster when Obama took office, which is a very different place than where it was when Bush took office. Never mind that I, Joe Blow, can annihilate with common sense almost every statistical marker propped up as a reason that Obama has failed. Let’s gloss over the fact that he took over the single biggest crisis since the Great Depression (and many economists claim it’s actually worse). And never mind that the objective data shows that we are better off than when Obama took office.

            Never mind that listening to Mitt Romney makes me want to wash myself; that he plans on violating my constitutional rights; that he wants to eliminate Planned Parenthood; that he plans on eliminating funding for CBS that costs Joe Blow about a dollar per year; that he wants to cut education funding because we’re clearly not far enough behind; that the retreat economic and education policies from the Bush era didn’t work and never will.

            Let’s gloss over the fact that he wants to slash taxes for millionaires like himself and levy taxes against people who already struggle to pay their bills. Let’s just toss all that data out, and point to a deficit crisis caused by a financial collapse caused by the Bush era as a knock against Barack Obama.

            If the people elect Mitt Romney, I’m the hell out. People can reach me in Canada.

          • BIKI024

            ah yes, the whole “i’m moving if the other guy wins argument”. maybe you should pick a better place than Canada which has the same unemployment rate, but an even higher tax rate, sounds like fun.

            my point was that they are both full of crap, and both equally bought and paid for. regardless of who is president I feel blessed to have been born and raised in the USA

          • actovegin1armstrong

            I moved to Spain for a while after the “Dangling Chad” crime.
            Believe,
            Do not go to Canada!
            Canada is in a dead heat with Albania as the leader in psychotic political thought.
            Blame Canada!

          • CleveLandThatILove

            Maybe the people are looking for a doer, as opposed to a thinker?

            There are different kinds of intelligence, and academia is not the real world for most everyone.

      • Believelander

        So….then Grossi isn’t actually bitter, he’s just playing the masses? Maybe. Although if you read Grossi (I try to avoid it) you’ll notice he stopped carrying water for Holmgren well before the ownership change. Actually well before he got fired, which was for blasting Randy Lerner on Twitter. Part of the context for that was Randy’s decision to give 50 Mil Mike the keys to the franchise. Playing to the masses? Maybe, but I don’t think if he wasn’t actually pissed at the regime he would play dangerous enough games to get himself canned.

        The truth is always more complex and almost always less attractive than we paint it to be. I don’t know Tony Grossi, so I really can’t say much, and I won’t presume to pretend I understand his motives. I only decide whether I agree or disagree with the words he writes in his columns.

        • nj0

          Broken clock and all that.

          Maybe playing to the masses isn’t the proper way to put it.

          I just question how much of his reporting comes from thoughtful, truthful analysis developed through actual journalism and how much is lazy writing directed by how accommodating those in power are to him.

          When this team needed a loud, thoughtful voice, he was out. Now that it’s all been decided — here comes Grossi. And I don’t hold to that.

  • GrandRapidsRustlers

    Thanks Dawg Pound Mike!

    The only thing (off the field) that has come out of this nonsense is an owner who seems to give a shit and Tom Heckert.

    We can all agree that Holmgren botched the RG3 situation.

    The better question is would you trade Weeden, Richardson, Schwartz, and Gordon for RG3?

    The answer is probably still a yes that you would take RG3 but you at least have to think about it and for that I commend Heckert who I think has done a great job considering the nonsense above him and the Head Coach below him.

    The pieces are in place for the future and now that Holmgren and Lerner are gone with Shurmur to follow they MUST nail the selection of the next coach. This division could be all ours for the next 3-4 years.

    • BIKI024

      you’re missing another 1st rounder and of course the illustrious additional 2nd rounder as well, so there are still 2 more players that would have to be factored in..

      RG3 slipped to me in the late rounds in my fantasy drafts and has been a godsend, so i definitely love the kid, but I still feel it was a king’s ransom, especially for a team that has so many holes in the roster as the Browns. I know it’s early, but it seems we’ve hit with all the players you’ve mentioned, and we’ll see who we draft with this upcoming #1 pick as well.

      • GrandRapidsRustlers

        Agreed. One big time linebacker in April and I think it’s safe to say that Heckert did a damn good job considering the incompetence of his boss. I just hope he gets the chance to stay.

      • actovegin1armstrong

        Biki,
        I love you, but you do lose some football cred for mentioning your “fantasy”.

    • Cranky M

      I would never in a million years trade Weeden, Richardson, Gordon, Schwartz, AND another 1st-round pick for RG3. Especially considering just how many holes we had.

      I understand the whole “you do whatever you can to get a franchise QB” thing, but sweet lord….there is such a thing a being too costly. A starting QB, RB, WR, RT, and DT, with other draft picks that figure to be very high, for one player? I just don’t see it.

      Imagine if we HAD picked up RGIII. Who would be his starting receivers? Who would be the starting right tackle? Who would be the running back? We would still have all of those holes, and we wouldn’t be able to address them properly in the next draft. We would be a terrible team with a high-potential QB and nothing else, not even the potential for imminent upgrades via the draft.

      I just hate the idea of trading so many draft picks, no matter what you’re getting in return. So risky…

      • Cranky M

        I forgot to add the fact that his playing style opens the potential for serious injury, and God just happens to hate Cleveland. Recipe for disaster.

        • actovegin1armstrong

          Thank you Cranky you saved me from launched into my usual tirade!
          It would take forever, I type like a drunken monkey.

          We may end up with “Hamlet”.

          With all due credit to Aristotle on that one.
          He said it first…. well, even before that Bill guy.

          • GrandRapidsRustlers

            I agree with both of you. I would not make that trade even if I believe that if you presented it to 32 NFL GMs it might be a split.

            We are actually going in the right direction and just need to remove Pat.

            I will continue to be the VP of the Weeden fan club here (someone else already took the lead here I think) because I think he has 5-6 solid years in him and that’s all we got of Kosar so let’s get the right coach and go for this thing.

          • Cranky M

            Can i be the President?

    • actovegin1armstrong

      NO!

  • McSlain

    Is it a bit early to say Heckert did a good job? Maybe he did well, maybe he did poor. Some FA money has at least been questionable, and just going younger does necessarily mean better or more talented. If the age purge was such a factor then why did it take two year to start it? Is fair to ask is Hardesty and Marecic are big question marks? Did he panic when picking Weeden so soon? Did he show professionalism with picking up an end suited for a 4-3 when the team was playing a 3-4, and questioning why he didn’t play? Is that player still on the team? Did he get any return on Robiskie? What did he see that made him keep him? Why pay Moore money and then sit him? Why not trade Hillis if he is not your guy and get some return? Was it better to wage a salary battle with him? (Peyton not without blame here) What did he see Carlton Mitchell that neither coach seemed to see? Is TJ Ward a complete safety? Or will another high pick need to be made to play there due to holes in his game.

    • BIKI024

      Hillis is exactly what a lot of people thought he was, an injury riddled RB that was a one-year wonder. and it seems like the rest of the NFL knew it as he only got a 1 year deal from KC, to be their backup. i think Heckert won on that one..

      Robiskie? he doesn’t even play in the NFL..

      yes it’s fair to ask if Hardesty, a mid-2nd round pick is a question mark, as is with Marecic, a late 4th round pick. there was risk/reward with Hardesty and unfortunately his time with us has been injury riddled, otherwise if you watched the SEC at all in 2009 you’d know that Hardesty had the goods. i highly doubt any GM hits on all their picks, even the ones in the early rounds, so if we’re going to nitpick about the 50th pick and the 100th pick in 2 seperate drafts, well, maybe you should check out some other team’s drafts as well..

      TJ had a promising rookie season and has battled with injuries the past year, but it’s not the easiest position to learn and does take a few seasons to fully understand the scheme, etc.

      Carlton Mitchell, the 6th round pick?

      It seems most of us agreed that Evan Moore looked like he had a future, not only with us but in the NFL in general.. but for whatever reason (seems like mostly due to injury) his production dropped, not only in Cleveland, but he’s had a rough go at it in Seattle as well..

      • nj0

        I agree with your assessment of Hillis and don’t think he ever was that talented, but the fact that he ran so effectively under Mangini (with McCoy under center and 10 guys in the box) just furthers illustrates how poor of a coach Shurmur is.

        • BIKI024

          we had the same offensive line coach, i’m not sure they were teaching things that much differently. it’s not like we called different style run plays. the fact of the matter is that Hillis was healthy in 2010 and he wasn’t in 2011, pretty cut and dry. while of course we can’t change the past, we’ll never know how much better the offense would’ve performed if he was as healthy as he was in 2010.

          • nj0

            just saying i think we have as much, if not more, talent at RB now. long short is i’d like to see us pound it out more.

          • BIKI024

            yes, of course, but you also have to see what the defense is giving you as well and try to take advantage. if you didn’t notice, the Colts had the box stacked for a majority of the game early on, so we tried to find some mismatches. unfortunately we didn’t hit on as many as we’d like.

            of course i’m sure if we kept pounding it into a stacked box and only picking up a couple yards per carry everyone would be screaming for Shurmur’s head as well.

          • nj0

            Screaming for heads is just what we do.

      • McSlain

        The hype on Hillis after his breakout season could have netted us draft picks. A team building through the draft needs picks. If he wasn’t your man, which he wasn’t, then why not trade him and avoid the incident all together, especially since he signed another back. Heckert made the stink about Carlton Mithcell and why oh why didn’t Mangini play him, and yet he did not see the field under either coach. Was Heckert wrong? He kept Robiskie and then cut him during the season, what did he see that was not already available on tape that allowed him to carry and then cut him without any return? I do not have need to check other teams. I am just asking is there enough information available to say Heckert is good or bad?

        • BIKI024

          so you think they should’ve traded Hillis after the breakout before the draft even though Hardesty is coming off an ACL? sure we signed Brandon Jackson, but they were looking at him more as a 3rd down back, not an everydown back.

          i think they did the right thing in keeping Hillis as he had a very cap friendly salary and everyone had high hopes that he would be healthy.

          I think you’re confusing Carlton Mitchell with Jayme Mitchell, and i also think the whole “stink” was much ado about nothing.

          as far as keeping Robiskie, i think just as Frownie has said over and over, sometimes it takes a few years for a WR to “get it” and it probably didn’t make sense to cut your #2 draft pick from 2 years previously without giving the kid some more time. as camp, preseason, and the season went along, it became more and more apparent that Robiskie wasn’t able to step up his game. the Jags picked him up and he didn’t make the field there either and they let him go as well and now he’s probably sitting on the beach somewhere with david veikune.

          • NeedsFoodBadly

            You’re not wrong on any of this – except that Robiskie got picked up by the Lions yesterday.

            Just wanted to give you the opportunity to shout “We’re not Detroit,” should you want it.

          • McSlain

            If you are going to build through the draft, and Peyton is not your guy, then yes, you trade him. I guess your right. Keeping him and the drama that followed was a far better plan. I am not confusing the Mitchells. Heckert stated he did not why either of them did not see the field. More press was given to Jaymee Mitchell and I mentioned him in my first post. How many games has the third down back Brandon Jackson played in this year? Is that FA money well spent? I realize he ended up hurt last year and did not see the field, but are his two receptions and no carries worth the FA money this year? It cannot be a system thing as everyone is on the same page.

          • BIKI024

            wow. so you’re suggesting they should’ve traded a 25 year old with minimial career carries who just came off a monster year with a rookie contract??? good grief.

            i think many people, including the folks at EA Sports (and the fans that voted) expected much more from him, but especially the Browns who had very high hopes for him. but Kudos to them to not extending him and letting him prove himself by first staying on the field and then of course performing on it. then of course some of his whacky off the field decisions didn’t help either. again, the Browns were big winners in letting him go and got great value out of him for what they gave up for him and especially for what they paid him.

            now, if someone had called up the Browns and offered picks, they would have to listen, but it doesn’t make sense to actively try to trade a guy in that situation.

            again, the media completely overblew the Mitchell situation. so what if Heckert wanted them to play some snaps to see what they had? maybe they would’ve realized he was dog shit and dumped him that offseason. they had their reasons for liking him, mainly because he was built like a lot of the edge pass rushers they had in Philly. same goes for Carlton, a lot of fans were high on him as well, mainly because he had the physical tools, but unfortunately he kept getting banged up and missing crucial reps in camp/practice, etc.

          • BIKI024

            re: BJax, he has only been active for 1 game, so it seems he’s still not fully recovered from the injury. obviously a disappointing pickup, but certainly can’t blame the FO for picking him up, he performed very well in GB.

      • rodofdisaster

        Whether Hillis was a one-year wonder or not, Shurmur did not seem the least bit interested in having this guy on the team

        • BIKI024

          The stats don’t back that up.. he averaged just as many touches..

        • CleveLandThatILove

          You have to think that having your HC validation makes a difference for some of these guys. Alex Smith and Harbaugh, Hillis and Mangini. If someone important believes in you, how valuable is that?

      • actovegin1armstrong

        “TJ had a promising rookie season and has battled”
        That is the important thing Biki, he battled.
        Battle Battle Challenge Challenge

    • Beeceeinla

      wasn’t ward a mangini pick?

      • BIKI024

        well, Mangini was the HC, so I’m sure his input was sought out.. just like his input was used in all the picks that he made in NY that he gets credit for working under Tannenbaum

  • ClevelandFrowns

    Here’s a link to a video of my first segment on “All Bets Are Off” last Tuesday.

    http://youtu.be/6dJd1RqEcN8

    • BIKI024

      NICE!

      you gotta get Bruce in Cheddar Bay next year! i’m sure he could be great resource to add players!

      • CleveLandThatILove

        Hopefully not some of his callers. Whoa.

    • Jim

      Nice appearance. Kudos on the Indians comments. We talk about it here in the comments but I feel like the vast majority of Indians’ fans want to blame the teams failures on the Dolan’s “inability” to spend rather than the system itself. Nice to see some push back on this nonsense in the proverbial “main stream” media.

    • actovegin1armstrong

      Frownie,
      Nice to see you as a real person; being clever and well spoken.
      I always picture you as a football with eyes, (Frowns logo).

    • https://twitter.com/jimkanicki jimkanicki

      . ‘.. in the storied tradition of the wheel, indoor plumbing..’ .. lol.

      no wait, lololololol.

      i cant imagine coming in cold to something like this. i cant even finish a post here without an edit 45 mins later.

      when youre running your own show give your guests three hot sports takes for them to prep on and have them have one or two fresh takes in their back pocket. hold back on one or two subjects for spontaneous responses. that should help bring out their best and yours.

  • Cranky M

    Not to dredge this back up, but…

    For the sake of argument, i took away the worst game for both Luck and Weeden and then compared their stats. Minus the worst game by each, their stats are as follows:

    Weeden: 142/237; 1,665 yards; 9 TD’s; 6 INT’s; 84.4 QB Rating

    Luck: 112/206; 1,395 yards; 7 TD’s; 5 INT’s; 76.8 QB Rating

    So both are rookie QB’s with terrible rosters.
    One has the benefit of an above-average O-line, but has two absurdly raw and inexperienced starting WR’s and an objectively terrible HC.
    The other has the benefit of an All-Pro receiver and a more experienced/ semi-competent HC, but a markedly worse O-line (although i don’t think it’s QUITE as bad as people seem to think).
    Neither has a running game.

    So i sincerely ask again:
    Other than the pre-established narrative, why is it that Luck is already Peyton Manning incarnate whereas Weeden is still being used as a punchline ? Why is Luck great, but many are still questioning whether Weeden can be a starting QB? Where is the disconnect here?

    • nj0

      Well, I’m no Weeden hater, but it’s hard to ignore the age factor. I mean, baseball ain’t football, but if a 23-year-old puts up the same numbers as a 29-year-old most people would say the 23-year is a the better player.

      • BIKI024

        better prospect, not necessarily better player. but there is something to be said for the lack of hits on Weeden all these years.

        not comparing Weeden’s skillset or toughness to Steve Young’s, but Weeden is a couple inches taller and about 20 pounds heavier and Young got banged up pretty good a couple years in USFL and with TB before riding the pine for 4 years.. then Young made his first start in SF at age 30 and went on to have 7 pro bowl seasons post age 30.

        then there’s Rich Gannon who also barely played during his first 3 seasons, and didn’t even hit his stride until well into his mid-30s..

        Weeds is a big boy, if he has the goods and stays healthy, there’s no reason why he can’t have a solid 8 year career, which is exactly the amount of seasons Bernie played for us..

        • nj0

          Too true. Kurt Warner and Vinny Testaverde both were probably better in their 30′s than 20′s. Just saying I see why people aren’t going kuku for Weeds.

          As for Luck, the media started that storyline and it’ll take a whole lot to kill it. And if it dies, it won’t happen gradually. One day he’ll be the golden child, the next he’ll be a bust (even if he’s just okay).

          Also – are people actually still questioning if Weeden can be a starter? Seems like most people around here are behind him or at worst hesitant but fair enough to notice some positives in his game.

          • BIKI024

            the fact that Frownie was complementary of Weeden after 2 solid games means that as always, consistency and performance is what will drive perception change, so it’s all on Weeds to prove the haters wrong. you never know what you’re going to get with SD, but hopefully the long trip and time difference will give our guys a slight advantage and Weeds can put up 3 solid games in a row, and hey, maybe another 68 QBR, or above 90 quarterback rating

          • nj0

            What’s shocking to me is how sky high expectations are for rookie QBs now. Not just here, but around the league. Even just 3 or 4 years ago, I think people would be applauding any and all of the rookie QB class. I blame Cam.

          • Bryan

            I have been banging this drum for weeks now- Weeden is legitimately impressive. The dude is getting progressively better each week and has incredible upside. I love me some Weeds.

            If the Browns could win a couple games in a row before the bye week I guarantee we will finally see Weeden get some national press. Some moron at ESPN will finally realize that his stats with Week 1 excluded are superb, and will write a piece entitled “Is Brandon Weeden Better than Andrew Luck?”

          • actovegin1armstrong

            Bryan,
            “I love me some Weeds.”
            Terrific, you may say Weeds, but most of us call it Bikilettuce.

          • BIKI024

            yeah and look at Cam this year, not only is he performing poorly on the field, but he seems to be losing it mentally as well. Catch-22 with the young guys, but that’s why people were so high on Weed because of his maturity, professionalism, and ability to learn on the fly. the dude has made some big strides in a relative quick time. let’s hope he can continue to progress so that we can focus on getting better and building around him.

          • Cranky M

            re: Cam losing it mentally.

            Reading his scouting report now is fairly humorous. Some highlights:

            “Lacks accountability…Can provide an initial spark, but will quickly be dissected and contained by NFL defensive coordinators, struggle to sustain success…has a selfish, me-first makeup….enormous ego with a sense of entitlement that continually invites trouble and makes him believe he is above the law… seeks shortcuts and sets a bad example. Immature and has had issues with authority…”

            Having a QB who is known for being mature and professional is nice.

        • actovegin1armstrong

          Some days you are my absolute hero Biki!

      • Cranky M

        I understand the age/potential factor, and people projecting Luck as a better QB down the road. But i’m talking this season, right now. Luck’s play THIS SEASON is apparently enough for people to validate his status as the next great QB. Weeden has played just as well, and he’s a punchline. Two players, similar stats, similar situations, completely different narratives.

  • ClevelandFrowns

    ALL HAIL OUR NEW LEADER SWIMMING CITY BUCK: pic.twitter.com/MFdqNAuR

    • nj0

      That is the greatest thing I have ever seen.

      edit: probably missed the last ferry from put-in-bay

      • nj0

        Is it odd that this ridiculous picture is making me homesick?

    • BernietoCatcherGuy

      I think he’s looking to get somewhere warm, have some drinks with little umbrellas and think about what he wants to do in the future.

      • https://twitter.com/jimkanicki jimkanicki

        homgrum was the worst ever, was he not?

        ‘i found out i miss the coaching part of it.’ ya know mike, three years of that shit and no one gives a rat’s ass about your inner kampf.

        all we know for sure is that the winner of cheddar bay should preside over the browns until he/she is unseated by a new champion. there is no doubt that the browns would be in a better place if p_forever were in charge last year and big dood were running the show now.

    • actovegin1armstrong

      “63 miles was worth it, I am finally out of Canada!”

      • CleveLandThatILove

        He’s just down for the weekend.

  • http://bryanjoiner.com/ Bryan Joiner

    The future is about what it’s always been about: TD’s instead of FG’s.

  • nj0

    A question I regularly chris ponder during my dreary office days ….

    …if you were a Cleveland-born exile in some far off land and you were magically awarded an awesome bar -what Cleveland artists/songs/etc. would you stack the jukebox with to make it home? And please no Cleveland Rocks.

    • NeedsFoodBadly

      Dead Boys/Devo/Pere Ubu/The Cramps

      For new stuff, Cloud Nothings.

      Also Bone Thugs.

      • Cranky M

        You had me until you got to Bone Thugs….

        Devo/Pere Ubu/The Cramps > almost anything else ever.

        • ClevelandFrowns

          Getting them confused w/ The Pretenders? Forgetting about the Pretenders? Black Keys? If you’re counting Devo then you’re counting Akron bands, right?

          • Chris Gossard

            I’d add Lucky Pierre and my old roomie’s band, Nine Inch Nails

          • NeedsFoodBadly

            I’ve discovered your secret identity; you’re the lead singer of Slam Bamboo, aren’t you?

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=iWccbyICM_A

          • NeedsFoodBadly

            NEO is a big house containing many rooms. Bands from Akron and Canton and Cleveland can all coexist.

            I just personally don’t like the Pretenders that much. Black Keys must be the biggest (and bestest) thing from the region since TRACY CHAPMAN’S FAST CAR though. Or NIN.

          • http://www.autismspeaks.org/ PML

            The Black Keys are the devil. Still haven’t forgiven them for their comments after the Decision.

      • Jim

        Black Keys and Cloud Nothings for sure.

    • BIKI024

      Bone Thugs – Thuggish Ruggish Bone is an absolute must

      • nj0

        Haslam could have engendered some local sympathy by starting his presser by explicitly stating that he’s not against rap, he’s not against rappers, but he is against those thugs…

        • BIKI024

          and Tasha

      • http://www.autismspeaks.org/ PML

        Keeping them on the run wit me shotgun…

    • actovegin1armstrong

      Banana Blender Surprise
      The Schlitz Quartz
      The el Orbits (Yes, I know it is redundant, so do they; it is part of the allure.)
      The Talking Heads
      Propaganda
      The Time Zone
      South Side Johnny
      The Pretenders
      edit: I forgot Devo

      There is at least some small Cleveland connection with every band, well…. except for Propaganda.

      • zarathustra

        what’s the talking heads connection? I thought they were from Rhode Island.

      • Cranky M

        Talking Heads? I’m not aware of any Cleveland connection with the Talking Heads. RI, then NY….

        • Cranky M

          Oops, just noticed Zarathustra said the same thing. Ignore me….

        • actovegin1armstrong

          Tina Weymouth played with Pere Ubu.

          I should have included Pere Ubu as well.
          Back in the good old days when The Agora ruled the nation and The Corral was not a country bar, The Talking Heads and all of their various incantations were in Cleveland very frequently.
          I did some singing stuff
          I would tap out a few stories, but Frownie always wants
          “Pictures or it Never Happened.”

          However, I am too ugly to save pictures.

          That was when The Agora was on 24th and I had keys to the Knight Brother’s warehouse and parking across the street

          • nj0

            You sure have done some things.

          • actovegin1armstrong

            And I failed miserably at all of them.

          • actovegin1armstrong

            I did not mean “singing stuff” with The Talking Heads.
            I was with a plethora of bands having fun, but going nowhere.

          • actovegin1armstrong

            I should have added Chrissie Hynde.
            She knew everybody, lived in Europe, hung out with all of the cool kids and her version of “Stop Your Sobbing” is amazing.
            She has an incredible cover of “Everyday is Like Sunday” too, I love that song.

            Great topic idea njo.

    • CleveLandThatILove

      The Dazz Band with Let It Whip for starters…

    • https://twitter.com/jimkanicki jimkanicki

      adding to the list
      ojays
      ruby and the romantics
      james gang
      dino crocetti
      raspberries
      and this.

      ps: so very pleased NOT to see michael stanley on the list so far. move to exclude? do i have a second?

      • nj0

        Agree on MS. And the inclusion of live-at-the-agora types. I’d have the ’78 Agora show on there for sure.

        Also, Randy Newman’s “Burn On”.

        • https://twitter.com/jimkanicki jimkanicki

          the springsteen concert was on 8/8/78; it preceded the classic rundgren concert i linked to by fifteen days.

          imagine that.

          no really — imagine having those two concerts in that small hall within two weeks of each other.

          and if i’m not mistaken pink floyd was at the stadium for a world series of rock gig promoting their animals album. (my bad, that was 1977.)

          • ClevelandFrowns

            I was born on 8/2/78 which is surely no coincidence.

          • https://twitter.com/jimkanicki jimkanicki

            interesting. it appears you can trace your genesis possibly to rundgren but more likely ozzy osbourne. or devo.

          • nj0

            Yeah, the world series of rock concerts were amazing.

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngxmZ_zmQXE&feature=relmfu

            God how I miss the old stadium.

          • https://twitter.com/jimkanicki jimkanicki

            wow.
            just wow.
            look at that crowd.
            [ac/dc never was the same after bon scott passed.]

            and the stadium may have been a shithole but it was our shithole.

    • BIKI024

      Foster the People
      Kid Cudi

      • http://www.autismspeaks.org/ PML

        I forgot about Foster the People. Their sound is amazing as far as I am concerned. They show how great electronica can sound if done correctly. Probably skews too young for a lot of folks here.

  • nj0

    Dear Browns,

    Win.

    Yours truly,
    Nicholas

  • https://twitter.com/jimkanicki jimkanicki

    in the few times ive seen bernie kosar on tv or heard him on radio, i have not been impressed. im not impressed with his having been a florida telemarketer; im not impressed with a failed steakhouse chain; im not impressed with his being associated with overpriced baskets sold through peer-pressure marketing techniques. in short and from afar, find his morality suspect and his intelligence overrated. i would not want him anywhere near my billion dollar business.

    that said, i also hear a lot of people who i respect on this board saying things like this (from today’s hey tony):
    “… I have been saying that with Bernie’s on field intelligence, he would be a great QB coach, coordinator or adviser. I know he is not the most attractive name out there, but the guy just sees things from a different perspective. …”

    to the class: is bernie seriously worth considering in either a coaching or talent eval slot?

    • actovegin1armstrong

      jk,
      No.

    • GrandRapidsRustlers

      No.

      There are multiple people here who are more qualified. I mean hell if the Browns want to pick someone with a drinking problem this is a good place to start.

    • nj0

      Only if you think Albert Belle should manage the Indians.

      • ClevelandFrowns

        I feel pretty strongly actually that Belle for the Indians would be significantly better than Bernie for the Browns.

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