Shurmurball Goes West

by Cleveland Frowns on December 2, 2012

The Browns are in Oakland today for the best chance to break their NFL-long road losing streak (12 games and counting) that they’ll have until 2013. Also a chance for their first winning streak since last September.

The quote of the day is from the PD’s Dennis Manoloff:

“It is difficult in the NFL to lose three straight games by 21 or more points, but the Raiders have done so.”

And the rest is your Shurmurball open thread for Week 13. We’ll be back tomorrow as always to see about how it went.

  • https://twitter.com/jimkanicki jimkanicki

    /start rant

    the rehabilitation of tony grossi took a turn for the worse today.

    mike from galena: … You said when Holmgren came Mangini had to win at least 9 to keep his job and this is a coach who had a winning record 2 out of 3 years in NY and actually beat some big named teams while here. However, with Shurmur many including you have lowered what you think it would take to keep Shurmur. I have to ask why drop standards? …

    hey mike: Mangini’s team peaked at the halfway point of his second year, and then slipped to another 5-11 season. … The point is to get better every year.

    ai-yi-yi. we’ve reviewed ad nauseum that the 2009 ‘peak’ was beating the defending SB champs in their house (saints) and then that’s year’s AFC SB team by 3 or 4 TDs (pats) all with a 3rd string rookie QB. that the ‘slip’ was triggered by an OT loss to a playoff team (jets), coupled with injuries to starting OLB and OG within desperately thin o-line and linebacking corps.

    god.. even when you know it’s coming, the incompetence of the discussion-leaders within NEO media still blows my mind.

    /end rant

    • SeattleBrownsFan

      hope they have some strong drinks at the bar!

    • Believelander

      To be fair to Grossi, his 9 win projection for Mangini was his estimate.of how many he had to win to not get chucked by Holmgren. In retrospect that probably would have gotten it done. Maybe he thinks Haslam will give Shurms the fair shake Holmgren didnt give Coach.

      But to be fair he should have just explained that instead of throwing a revisionist literary chop block.

      • https://twitter.com/jimkanicki jimkanicki

        o/t: you should just start throwing cheddar picks in. i know you want to. ill log em in one of the dormant entries.

        • Believelander

          Oh I don’t need to show off how horribru I am at picking point spreads, but I genuinely appreciate the thoughtfulness.

  • nj0

    I hate the late start. Stupid west coast.

    • SeattleBrownsFan

      And I hate the early morning starts the rest of the time and having to get my tailgate going at 3:30 am! Stupid east coast!

      • jpftribe

        5:30 am start here. Can actually get some sleep and just wake up early for the west coast starts. East coast 2am starts are a killer.

  • Cranky M

    Watching this Packers/Vikings game. It’s almost impressive just how terrible Christian Ponder is. I’m amazed by his sheer awfulness. Next time anybody feels down on Weeden, pop in a Christian Ponder video. You will feel much, much better.

    • http://www.clevelandfrowns.com/ Cleveland Frowns

      Christian Ponder is the NFL quarterback most likely to have a gateway to Narnia in his closet.

      • bupalos

        he’s also technically better than Weeds.

        • Cranky M

          Then i have officially lost all faith in technicality. I can’t possibly overstate how terrible he looked today.

        • Believelander

          Uhhhhhhhhhh

      • NeedsFoodBadly

        Is that a bad thing? Talking beavers are the business.

  • Cranky M

    Just realized that the Browns game isn’t even going to be on TV here. Steelers/Ravens. I am not happy.

    • https://twitter.com/jimkanicki jimkanicki

      retreating to local bar shortly.

      go and do likewise.

      • Cranky M

        The bars around here (all 2 of them) are more likely to be showing the Steelers game.
        I’m guessing there’s no way to watch it online?

        • dubbythe1

          cricfree.tv this week they are on channel 2

          • dubbythe1

            just to warn you, its a delayed stream and sometimes really slow

          • Cranky M

            Thanks. Going to try it for the 2nd half.

            I live on the eastern border of Ohio, actually closer to Pittsburgh than Cleveland. It’s a bummer as far as watching football.

          • Cranky M

            Working really well! Thanks again.

          • NeedsFoodBadly

            ditto this. Wouldn’t have been able to watch the game otherwise, and it’s working great.

  • Defenestration

    Wow, Andrew Luck. Wow.

    • NeedsFoodBadly

      An amazing comeback. The whole team never gave up. Indianapolis fans are… very lucky.

      • Defenestration

        YEEEOOOOOWWW!!! (I really hope you violently removed sun glasses after typing that)

        • NeedsFoodBadly

          MY GOD

          I honestly didn’t intend to make that pun. I don’t know if that makes it better or worse.

          • Defenestration

            Awesome.

            I really thought that Luck was going to somehow get ahead to lay a block on that winning play.

          • NeedsFoodBadly

            It was such a weird looking play. What a drive, though.

      • Cranky M

        I hate Indianapolis. They just had to manage to be worse than the Browns when RG3 and Luck were coming out. Manning to Luck. God, I hate the Colts.
        I’m bitter.

        • NeedsFoodBadly

          I live here now, so I can’t hate it too much. But that transition… one bottom-feeder year, and then back to the playoffs. Ridiculous. It looks like Luck is the real deal.

        • Believelander

          I hate the Rams and Mike Holmgren’s disingenuous jowls more.

    • Believelander

      He was pretty bad today.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=517400620 Jason Hahn

    Keep on overthrowing them Weeden, play to your strengths!

    • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=517400620 Jason Hahn

      Looks like he overcompensated and is now underthrowing. Weeden, you bad.

  • Cranky M

    MoMass!!! Makes me happy whenever MoMass makes a play. Feel bad for the dude.

    • Cranky M

      I’m equally excited that after 3 yeas, i finally noticed that i could register instead of typing my information every time i post something.
      I’m a little slow sometimes.

  • Cranky M

    Buster Skrine….what the hell was that? Why even TRY to jump for that ball? He had zero chance.

    • Cranky M

      Skrine! Damn it…

  • Bryan

    T-Rich continues to under-perform relative to his draft status more than Weeden. Where are the T-Rich haters? Hardestly hits the hole so much better.

    Buster Skrine. Man.

    • NeedsFoodBadly

      I’m not a Richardson hater (dude’s had busted ribs and such) , but I am boggled why we don’t adopt a more running back by committee approach. Hardesty has been crazy effective.

      • Believelander

        Brandon Jackson hasn’t dressed for a game this season except perhaps week 1. This is dumbpidity.

        • bupalos

          I almost feel like they are protecting Richardson from criticism or pressure by giving him essentially all the carries and not allowing for an open comparison. It’s pretty clear that a straight comparison of him and Hardesty doesn’t help the obvious marketing effort.

          • alexb

            if they keep running richardson like this they won’t have a choice but to run Hardesty. I would sit trent next week against KC cause isn’t Pgh again the week after? At least limit his carries next week to like 10 or 15

    • Cranky M

      Richardson hasn’t exactly lived up to 3rd-overall pick standards. But considering that he hasn’t been healthy all season, i don’t think it;s fair to expect much more.

      But yeah, Skrine…he’s a beast in run support, but a disaster in coverage.

    • alexb

      are you kidding? Look i have certain issues with his running style…he sometimes tries to feel his way past the d line and lb’ers then lower the boom on the secondary while Hillis took the ball and exploded into anyone that stepped into the gap he decided was his. I kind of prefer Hillis’s style of running but at the same token Trent is probably gonna last longer in the league because he doesn’t take the hits that Hillis does. I kind of want both in my backfield. We can dream right? Anyway, Trent is running against 8 man fronts all season, you are crazy to insinuate he’s underperforming. The guy has been a draft horse, he has forced EVERY single defense to scheme for him. Something I wish our passing game would have taken advantage of more throughout the season, not just the last couple weeks. Not one defense has come to the table saying “we really need to stop this Weedon cat”, c’mon dude be real. As for Hardesty I agree he needs a few more carries per game. He is a really good change of pace. Problem is after two carries the adjustment is made and he gets smashed somewhere north of the line of scrimmage. He doesn’t get much after contact. But he does need to be used more for sure, I really don’t know why he hasn’t. I would prefer they keep Trents attempts well below 30 per game, that’s just way too much given that the kid doesn’t go down unless the entire D line is on his back, it’s ridiculous. But under performing? Good god no. Without Richardson this season would have been utterly intolerable.

  • Cranky M

    That spot on the QB sneak was an f’ing joke.

    • Believelander

      This is so true. I’m embarassed they’re in our conference

  • Cranky M

    The 3rd-string QB who is so terrible that the Browns victory over the Steelers was supposedly worthless just beat the Ravens. Can we reevaluate that now?

    • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=517400620 Jason Hahn

      No.

    • Believelander

      Yes. The Browns beat the team that just put away a 9-2 team, despite a number of self-inflicted wounds.

      • jpftribe

        Yes, this team is maddingly inconsistent. They really are close, but the areas they really need to improve are tough to address:
        1. A coach who can manage a game
        2. A rookie QB who is too slow in his progressions and throwing late.

        Those underthrown and batted balls are just coming out too late. Weeden’s most successful plays are when he decisively delivers the ball. However, his best game so far this year, even with the stupid picks.

        Shurmur has to go. he media is lauding his call on 4th and 1. Why didn’t he throw the challenge flag instead of burning the timeout? It sure looked to me like Weeden had the first and instead of just throwing the flag, he argued with the ref until he had to call a timeout.

        • Believelander

          Weeden’s release time over the last several games from snap to throw is just faster than the NFL average. The argument that he is indecisive or slow is inaccurate. He is occasionally indecisive. I know this because I clocked and diagramed every dropback from snap to release. His bigger issue is making poor choices or throwing inaccurately.

          • bupalos

            Totally agree. The very biggest problem is deciding practically before the snap where he’s throwing and thus missing some great opportunities. The second biggest is just air mailing stuff. Hard to believe anyone would be enthused by this game because that was hands down the worst defensive backfield in the NFL and outside of some RAC it looked seriously mediocre minus to me…except I didn’t see the last scoring drive.

          • Believelander

            The point is, and I suppose I can type it again, is that the mistakes he makes are mistakes that almost every single rookie signal caller makes. I’m still waiting for the delivery of the glaring Weeden deficiency that is an anomaly for rookie QBs from any of the many who have declared him a bust.

          • bupalos

            First, it’s really not possible for a late 1st round QB to “bust,” It’s obviously best to hang with weeds for now, but I think it’s not realistic to suggest any more than what you do, that he’s playing like any given generic rookie. He will have to progress quite significantly to be a plus nfl quarterback, and he’ll have to do it very rapidly to be other than a geriatric plus nfl quarterback.

        • http://twitter.com/cpmack Chris M

          “2. A rookie QB who is too slow in his progressions and throwing late.
          You you actually mentioned the direct cause and effect in the same sentence.

    • bupalos

      We can reevaluate that if we also reevaluate the wisdom of Shurmur being so blase about giving Batch extra possessions because there was a supposed 0% chance that he could move that team. Batch has been successful for them filling in in the past. We dodged a bullet basically going to one knee with 4 minutes left.

      But yeah, this defense is a couple steps from being as good as anybody. The offense has players but it is still easily bottom 5 in the NFL

      • http://twitter.com/cpmack Chris M

        How is it blase? He chose giving a career 3rd string quarterback a chance to win a game over giving the #1 defense in the world a chance to win the game.

    • SteamingPileOfCraphonsoThorpe

      And, did the Ravens force 8 turnovers? Or hold the Stoolers to one TD on offense? They and the Stoolers have been the standard-bearers for tough, physical defense for all of the 2000’s, and while both teams are older and more banged up this year, the Browns hung in all of the Ratbird/Stooler games this year (and have one actual victory, since we know moral victories are meaningless).

      Super Bowl team? No! Getting better?…

  • Beeej

    How “clutch” was that 94 yard drive in the 4th? I think somebody’s QBR is going up. Also, that first picture perfect pass to Gordan for the TD was exactly what I was talking about last week…the second under thrown pass for the int not so much.

    • Believelander

      What I liked from today’s game was that Brandon Weeden threw over 30 times and we won. Every other game we won this season, he’s thrown under 30 times. Also, that 94 yard drive in the 4th quarter. When the Weedz needed to go convert some passes on a long drive to put the Raiders away, he did and rewarded Trent Richardson with a rushing score.

      Looking back now on the season, it’s funny how things start to materialize. Suddenly, only 2 of our 8 losses were to teams who are not playoff certainties, near-certainties, or likely participants. The hard-fought Shurmurballed loss to the Colts has changed its narrative from ‘you lost to the lowly Coltz!!!11!!!” to the Browns losing to a team that’s all but a shoo-in from going into the playoffs as a wild card. Now we can look at how we held the Colts offense to 17 points and Andrew Luck to zero touchdown passes.

      It will be fun to see how the Browns handle the soft underbelly of this schedule the rest of the way. We should beat KC, and should be able to play Pittsburgh tough if Roethlisberger isn’t starting. We might catch a lucky break vs. Denver, if the playoff picture solidifies, de-incentivizing the Broncos from putting more hits on Peyton Manning’s neck if they don’t have a shot at a first round bye. And Washington has lived and died by RG3, so even though I think he will beat us, our defense is good enough to probably prevent him from going off like he has the last month. And the Skins defense is terrible.

      Maybe we finish 4-12. Maybe 8-8. Probably somewhere in between. But all of a sudden, it’s a good bit of fun to watch Browns football again. Winning really does cure everything.

      • BIKI024

        keep in mind many of the skeptics will of course say the Colts didn’t have Freeney or Mathis that day, and they are great players, but keep in mind we also didn’t have Haden or Taylor,and hung tough.

        the past is the past, sometimes it takes losing a bunch of close games for a young team to learn how to win. dissirregardless of who the Raiders had out there, that is out of the Browns players hands, they still gotta go out and execute and they finally made a winning drive with the game on the line, hence Weeden’s increase in QBR, which is starting to make a little more sense to me.

    • http://twitter.com/cpmack Chris M

      Weeden was 10th in total QBR this week.

      http://espn.go.com/nfl/qbr/_/type/player-week/week/13

      Brady Quinn was… 1st? I didn’t see the game, but going off the box score he played very well.

  • Believelander

    http://tmi.me/BmH5W

    Sometimes the high profile cases get so much media coverage that we don’t get to find out about lower profile but still tragic events that hit closer to home.

  • alexb

    Is anyone noticing that there are certain routes that Weedon absolutely cannot through and shoulnd’t be allowed to thrown and there are others that he throws beautifully? Unfortunately the play action routes, which should work pretty well for us given who’s linng up behind Weeds, are not his strong suite. Those two picks today were bonafide awful throws, they were both squarely on him. His stats today are padded by a couple really long RAC’s. But his TD pass to Gordon was one of the best thrown balls I can remember from a Browns qb so he’s earned a reprieve for next year from me, unless he does some really utterly awful shit for the remainder of the season. I say he earns a reprieve cause if we can nurture whatever it was that got into him for that throw to Gordon, then we have something. Something clicked between Weeds and his receivers today, it was possibly the awful Raiders secondary but still. The raiders front put more pressure on Weeds today than I think he’s been under all season so those couple really nice throws he made were in close company.

    But then there’s that throw he made when his knee touched…..hard to explain that one. I mean if you’re gonna try and get away with something just throw it at the raiders coach, not at one of the lb’ers. That had the possibility of being on the year end highlight as THE worst play in the NFL.

    • bupalos

      I thought the gordon ball could have been a yard deeper actually, but yeah, good ball, got the job done. The bomb that should have won the Indy game was actually better I thought.

      The knee down throw was reminiscent of Weed’s play in the Iowa State game where he stepped out of the back of the endzone before tossing a pick-6. That’s the kind of stuff I was most worried about with him because it shows up throughout his OkState reels, but I have to admit for the most part it hasn’t been a problem for him in the NFL so far.

      • alexb

        ur right I forgot about that bomb against indy. And while a rodgers or brady would have thrown it a foot or two further im not going to complain about a deep ball like that which hits our receiver in perfect stride. He was also leading his crossing routes better yesterday, his guys could actually RAC. Still those two interceptions were really really really bad. Those are throws you absolutely cannot miss in the NFL.

    • http://twitter.com/cpmack Chris M

      Play action isn’t a route. I get that he overthrew the guy on that first awful pick, but it actually is a valuable option in a playbook. If you completely threw it out and never used it, you would never win a game.

      • alexb

        “play action routes”….that’s not saying play action is a route, it’s saying there are routes associated with play action. And alot of the routes utilized in a play action call are getting a receiver or tight end behind the lb’ers that just bit on the run. So you have to have a qb that can throw just over the top of those lb’ers, but if he consistently overthrows those routes the safeties coming up are going to pad their INT stats at our expense.

  • http://twitter.com/nmesha Nick

    Can you please touch on Shurmie’s timeout after the 51 yard Massaqoui catch in the 3rd quarter in your review today. totally asinine. way to kill all the momentum of the game, and let the defense rest up. Gash the defense for 70 yards in 2 plays, call timeout. So of course, we come out of the timeout to play for a field goal, that of course gets blocked. then of course the Raiders score a TD, and of course we start our next drive inside our own 10 with a 3 pt lead.

    • bupalos

      Well, it;s a good thing that Pat is never surprised by anything, otherwise one might suspect that he and his team were not prepared for success there.

      That said, that ball did seem to get set pretty fast for a 50 yard play.

  • http://twitter.com/cpmack Chris M

    I would also like to take a moment to roast Shurmur for calling that timeout when the bad ball spot on the QB sneak failed to get them the first down on 3rd and 1.

    If you have one timeout left, and think you got screwed on the spot, CHALLENGE THE FREAKING SPOT. I was screaming at my TV, completely unable to process why he wouldn’t challenge that play. If he got the challenge right, he got a free timeout and had one left, plus got the first down. Worst case is that you use your timeout anyhow.

    Instead, he burned the timeout (leaving them out of timeouts) and had to go for it on 4th and 1. That was the worst coaching mistake I’ve seen all year, to be honest. He’s lucky as hell that it worked out for him.

    • BIKI024

      he didn’t get the first down, saw the replays a bunch. and then we would’ve lost a challenge, who knows if we would’ve needed one later in the game. technically, in this case he made the right decision because he saved the challenge. the replays did not show any compelling evidence for them to overturn it.

      • NeedsFoodBadly

        By using up the final timeout, didn’t Shurmur lose the ability to challenge?

        • http://twitter.com/cpmack Chris M

          Exactly. Thank you. He had absolutely nothing to lose by throwing the red flag.

          • BIKI024

            well it wouldn’t have been overturned, so i’m really not sure what you’re arguing. no shot that gets overturned. now, you could argue that it is ridiculous we used up our 3rd timeout with just under 5 minutes to go, that’s definitely fair game. the odds of winning the game greatly improve exponentially more when your players make plays, and less so if you have an extra timeout or not..

            finally, our players made more plays than the other team, especially in the clutch and we won. we didn’t even need a timeout in the last 5 minutes to do it.

      • http://twitter.com/cpmack Chris M

        As NFB states, you cannot challenge plays after you run out of time outs. And with the angle I saw, the spot was terrible.

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