Skinned (RIP Shurmurball: 2011-2012)

by Cleveland Frowns on December 17, 2012

“If I die tomorrow, I can say I started a game in the NFL and we won.”Kirk Cousins

“Coach Shanahan put (Cousins) in a great spot. … They tailored what he does well.”Brandon Weeden

“When we thought it was going to be a run it was a pass. When we thought it was going to be a pass it was a run. They did a good job throwing us off.”Joe Haden

“They had a great disguise.”Jabaal Sheard

“I thought it would be a good day for our running game. It was shocking. But the game is bigger than me. Coach has to do what he does.” — Trent Richardson

“One player said to me that he thinks a complete overhaul is a done deal.”Tony Grossi

—————

So the 2012 Browns are all but certain to finish with a 5-11 record, and any doubts as to Pat Shurmur’s future as head coach in Cleveland have been all but erased. If you’re not the type that’s too easily excitable by things like wins over two of the very worst teams in the league, or needing every one of seven turnovers to squeak by a Charlie Batch-led Steelers group that was missing four Pro Bowlers and three-fifths of its starting offensive line, you aren’t especially surprised or disappointed by this. Or at least not any more surprised and disappointed than you were after a horrible loss to the Ravens sent the Browns into the bye week at 2-7.

Though it’s still some spectacle to see a 7-6 Redskins team come to Cleveland as 4-point underdogs, with the worst-ranked pass defense in the league, starting a rookie quarterback, Kirk Cousins, a fourth-round pick making his first career start in place of phenom Robert Griffin III, and nevertheless completely dominate the Browns on both sides of the ball.

Happy

RG3’s injury offered the Browns coaching staff a golden opportunity to help make a case for itself — however thin — by equalling a modern franchise-record winning streak against another severely impaired opponent. But after the game, the players were tripping over themselves to throw the play-callers under the bus, lending credence to what Brandon Weeden’s cousin was overheard saying about the coaching staff’s future being a foregone conclusion in the locker room.

Going into yesterday’s game, the Browns had been relatively lucky this season in avoiding quarterbacks and coaches with reputations for effectively reading defenses and designing offensive game plans. Not so much with Mike and Kyle Shanahan, who used, again, a rookie fourth-round quarterback making his first NFL start, to make Dick Jauron’s Think Less Play Faster defense look like it had never seen play action before. Now Peyton Manning and Ben Roethlisberger have a fresh blueprint just in time for Seasons Beatings.

Though of course Brandon Weeden did his defense no favors. The Browns’ own rookie quarterback was absolutely horrendous, putting on his most florid display yet of the characteristic indecisiveness that’s caused critics to question his viability as an NFL starter.* Mike Martz — 12-year NFL head coach and offensive coordinator, and designer of the The Greatest Show on Turf in St. Louis — was the color commentator for Fox’s broadcast of yesterday’s game, and offered cutting criticism of Weeden throughout.

“Weeden is just not confident against tight man,” Martz observed early on. “And that’s what the Redskins do.”

“He’s waiting for guys to run free and it’s not going to happen,” Martz later added. “You’ve got to throw the ball and let your receiver make a play.”

Martz also pointed out numerous examples of Weeden staring down his primary target, and on the Browns’ only legitimate scoring drive of the day at the end of the first half, he credited the Browns coaching staff for adjusting routes in response to the Redskins defense such that Weeden’s receivers did in fact “run free” for some easy completions. But the efficacy of those adjustments was short lived, thanks in part to two interceptions, each entirely on Weeden, along with a series of incompletions and ineffective checkdowns on three-play and five-play drives on the Browns’ first four of the second half. The Browns quarterback had four passes batted at the line of scrimmage yesterday to add to his league leading total of 21.

The type of man coverage that Washington plays isn’t frequently used in the NFL, but after yesterday that’s likely to change for teams facing Brandon Weeden. The Browns quarterback was so bad yesterday that even Terry Pluto said he “seriously considered switching to Colt McCoy.”** If opposing defenses do pick up on what the Redskins did, Pluto will be much farther from being the only one. And if Weeden is going to be next year’s opening day starter, next summer surely won’t be the third Browns training camp in a row without a legitimate competition for the job.

Here’s your obligatory link to the current 2013 draft order. Scouts Inc.’s list of top draft picks is here.

—————

OTHER GAME NOTES:

Some papers refuse to even print the name of Washington’s NFL team. The Plain Dealer on the other hand does this (artwork by Chris Morris):

horrendous embarrassment

Though it wasn’t all so bad for Cleveland yesterday thanks to St. Joe’s and John Carroll alum London Fletcher who added to his Hall of Fame resume with an interception, a QBR pressure and 7 tackles, one for a loss:

Fletcher

There was also this.

Frisman

Finally, salute to Phil Dawson and Josh Cribbs. Some way to go out that was.

OK, back to the draft boards and happy Monday.

—————

*Weeden registered a Total QBR of 26.9 on the day yesterday, a number augmented by a 69-yard touchdown pass to Travis Benjamin made after the Browns fell down by 17 in the fourth quarter. Weeden’s Total QBR on the season is now 26.1, worse than every quarterback measured except for Cardinals’ seventh-round pick John Skelton, and literally multiples worse than every rookie QB that’s played for a reason other than that his team’s regular starter was lost to injury. Though Nick Foles has a QBR that’s almost twice as good as Weeden’s, not to mention Cousins after yesterday.

Weeden also ranks dead last among the 38 QBs who’ve taken at least 25% of their teams stats this season by ProFootballFocus’s advanced metric (subscriber only), and fares only slightly better with Football Outsiders’ DYAR and DVOA.

**#TerryP4HCCB

  • BIKI024

    5 wins baby, we are who we (and Vegas) thought we were.

    so do we trade for Cousins and bring on Kyle Shanahan??

    • Wiseoldredbeard

      Kyle Shanahan – that is an interesting idea, isn’t it… Well, the debate is now over on the total explosion. The only question is who…

      • http://www.clevelandfrowns.com/ Cleveland Frowns

        Nick Saban. Haslam’s first choice is Saban. Saban has something to prove in the NFL and he wants to prove it. There is no better place for him to try to do that than here.

        • BIKI024

          why don’t we root for Bill Belichick to come here as well while we have a wish list. I get that the theory that he has “something to prove in the NFL”, but never have I heard him say that or any reliable source saying that as well.

          but i guess we’ll know in less than 3 short weeks. as some of the older guys may attest, coitus interruptus is a terrible, terrible thing.

        • Wiseoldredbeard

          I’m torn. The Miami thing, plus his rejecting a $50M offer last year (reportedly per Grossi) makes me wonder if he’s really the right guy. It would kill me if he came here and shanked it. He has been a boss college coach, no doubt, and he was here in the 90s (which I like), but he would most certainly require absolute authority and that makes me nervous.

          Bup — wholly agree. The Weeden pick may be the end of Heckert, though I’m still not convinced a lot of the trouble stems from the coaching…

          • bupalos

            >>>I’m still not convinced a lot of the trouble stems from the coaching…>>>
            Dunno. I watch the 4th and 3 and both picks and have a real hard time seeing how this guy doesn’t just kind of stink.

          • Wiseoldredbeard

            Bup — I don’t know, did you see this statistical comparison of Bradford, McCoy and Weeden all in their full years as rookies with Shurmur: http://espncleveland.com/common/more.php?m=49&post_id=9741 Sure he was the OC in St. Louis, but pretty crazy…

          • bupalos

            I can agree with the idea that shurmur’s offense could have a lot to do with why some of weeden’s NUMBERS look like they do, but I have a hard time believing he has much to do with why he throws total crap passes at open guys.

          • Beeej

            The world must be ending Friday. I agreed with a Grossi article.

          • Butzmark

            It was Holmgren that wanted Weeden at 22.

        • SteamingPileOfCraphonsoThorpe

          Frowns, do you personally want Saban? Given his mixed results in the NFL as the Czar/HC of the Fins, and his penchant for hijinks, tomfoolery, and scumbaggery.

          #integrity
          #?

          p.s. I am torn myself, because he would probably knife a homeless man if it gave him an edge to winning football games, but…he would knife a homeless man if it gave him an edge to winning football games!

          #That’sCommitment!

          • Wiseoldredbeard

            What is wrong with hiijinks and tomfoolery?

          • http://www.clevelandfrowns.com/ Cleveland Frowns

            I don’t know the full story about what happened with Saban in Miami, but I do know that the football coaching business is cutthroat, and with football clubs and programs so quick to fire coaches, there’s no good reason that shouldn’t cut both ways such that a guy doesn’t have every right to take advantage of the once in a lifetime opportunity that Saban seized — to legendary effect — in Alabama. I don’t have a problem with it.

          • BIKI024

            yeah but, it wasn’t the first time he did that.. he was saying the same song and dance when he was at LSU before he bolted to the Fins.. i don’t really have a problem with it either, but it seems there should be reason for caution.

        • BIKI024

          the other thing that differentiates Saban from Harbaugh and Carroll (who are having success in NFL) is that he is a defense oriented coach. Bama obviously has put up points, but not via any nuanced offense which both Harbaugh and Carroll are very familiar with.

          • http://www.clevelandfrowns.com/ Cleveland Frowns

            Harbaugh and Carroll both ran pro-style offenses when they coached in college, same as Sabes at Bama.

          • BIKI024

            have any of his QB’s done anything in the NFL? zero zilch nada

          • http://www.clevelandfrowns.com/ Cleveland Frowns

            Andrew Luck is the only QB of any of those coaches who’s done much of anything in the NFL. I don’t think that tells you very much.

          • BIKI024

            Carson Palmer had a pretty good career, who knows how he would’ve fared if he didn’t tear up his knee. obviously Lienart is a bum, and Sanchez has had his struggles.

            just saying, most college coaches have been incredible failures in the NFL, including Saban’s first attempt. the two that have had some success both had very aggressive offenses.

            i’m sure Saban understands this and who knows, maybe he will give carte blanche of the offense to the OC, much like The Hoodie does. we shall see how it all plays out.

          • http://www.clevelandfrowns.com/ Cleveland Frowns

            I think the consensus is that Saban’s Dolphins performed pretty well given the garbage roster he had to work with. Anyway, forgot that Carrol was there for Palmer, but I don’t think it’s an important point either way. Harbaugh and Carroll are the closest and most recent comparisons, and they’ve both been great.

          • jaws.

            and schiano as well. He has done pretty well with tampa.

          • Cranky M

            Come on, now. He had Lee Suggs and Matt Roth. What more does he need?

          • maxfnmloans

            didn’t Pete Carroll make his bones as a Defensive coach before being HC of the Jets and Pats? Worked under Earle Bruce at OSU for a year, I believe

          • BIKI024

            yes he did sir, but he evolved and made his bones at USC with of course a strong D, but his offense was very pass friendly, same goes for harbaugh. coincidence that they are the only 2 college coaches that have had success, maybe, maybe not.

            either way, i’m a firm believer that coaches look better when players make plays, and we finally have the makings of a legit 53, that will only get better after another draft and the 40m in cap room we have.

            which should make us the most attractive team, but who knows… knowing saban’s history he will take the highest offer, and if it’s known that he’s a free agent then it’s a bidding war.

          • Guest

            Carroll is a defensive guy too.

        • Seth

          Chatter about the Sabanator is fine and all but what about David Shaw. Nick Saban is 61 (not that old by any measure but not young), will command big bucks (and a certain degree of organizational control), will always have suitors trying to pry him away, and has never shown a desire to stay in one place. I do not hold it against him for leaving Miami, but the record speaks for itself. I think your point about him leaving and the media’s biased portrayal of it has merit and is mostly true. But the other side of it is given that situation how would Saban respond in this context, a similar, high-stakes environment where, given that expectations will be high from day one (partly because of Haslam’s statements and partly due to fans equating not having the worst roster in the NFL to having a good roster) his seat will get uncomfortable if the team looks bad in a preseason game. How long the coach would stay or “loyalty” and #integrity should not be a dispositive factor but they are certainly relevant to a holistic evaluation of a candidate. I think someone like Shaw makes more sense because why not choose a coach that gives the team more time to grow. The team still lacks a QB, positional depth everywhere, and that intangible (although it is so painfully evident when you watch them play) thing called a clue of how to win a close or “winnable” game.

          • http://www.clevelandfrowns.com/ Cleveland Frowns

            Those are fine points and Shaw would be a fine choice as well IMO but I don’t think Saban’s age should be a factor. I’m also sure that of all possible candidates, Saban’s will be the least susceptible to becoming “hot,” all else equal.

          • Seth

            Maybe in the long term, but in the short term the man is a god with a capital G in the SEC. You’re telling me that you don’t think after a rough year on the Northcoast the likes of Auburn, Ole Miss, Arkansas or any of the other SEC “schools” desperate to please their rabid fan bases would not at least try to offer Saban stupid money? It’s not like they’re going to spend it on upgrading the library. I hate to fall back on the “he’s done it before” argument but, well, it seems fairly logical in this situation. I mean maybe he would be averse to taking the PR hit again and hurting his legacy but hey there are quite a few hits I would be willing to take if I knew I had an eight-figure cushion on the other end.

          • http://www.clevelandfrowns.com/ Cleveland Frowns

            There’s just no way Saban doesn’t come here for the long haul if he comes here at all. Just no way.

          • Seth

            Well if you want to believe the rumors, it looks like this a moot point anyways and the team is looking to hire the guy who decided that Tim Tebow was a QB worthy of a first-round pick because hey it’s not like evaluation of QBs has been an issue here in the past. Happy Holidays Cleveland, bottoms up on a tall pint of Christmas Ale (please hold the disgusting cinnamon sugar on the rim) with a double shot of Jameson on the side.

          • Cranky M

            And traded multiple picks to move up for a CB that he traded the next season, and traded up for a pass-rushing LB who barely has more NFL sacks than i do, and used a 3rd-round pick on a TE who has yet to catch a pass in the NFL (and may have even traded up for him, can’t remember)….

        • jaws.

          “Nick Saban. Haslam’s first choice is Saban.”
          where’d we hear that conclusively?

      • bupalos

        Yeah, a little of the gloss even comes off Heckert with Weeden’s devaluation. Doubt you could get a 4th for him at this point.

      • BIKI024

        Shanahan fits “the steeler way” of hiring head coaches who are in their 30’s..

    • Yahmule
  • BIKI024

    while all the facts haven’t been released yet, looks like there was a fight between London Fletcher’s family and Browns fans which resulted in his 57 year old Aunt suffering a heart attack right in the stadium concourse. http://www.thebiglead.com/index.php/2012/12/17/london-fletchers-family-members-attacked-by-browns-fans-arrested-aunt-has-heart-attack/

    • http://www.clevelandfrowns.com/ Cleveland Frowns

      Ugh. Link?

    • bupalos

      I going to do a Meh on that. I was vaguely shocked at how Fletcher was immediately taunting fans after his big plays. He seemed really aggressive and angry for someone “coming home.” Not sure what that was all about, maybe something happened pregame.

      • http://www.clevelandfrowns.com/ Cleveland Frowns

        Whatever really happened I think we can all agree it was Shurmur and Holmgren’s fault.

  • BIKI024

    To Cheddar Bay Executive Committee, actually scoring committee:

    I had requested to change my Niners play to the Browns prior to the game yesterday, but my score is still reflecting the Niners win, so I should have 71 points instead of 72.

    • http://www.clevelandfrowns.com/ Cleveland Frowns

      #integrity

      • BIKI024

        speaking of…

        “I’m not a Saban guy, because I don’t like liars, and I think he
        lied,” Jaworski told a Philadelphia radio station last week. “I think he lied to the Miami Dolphins and he lied to the fans of Miami, and he left.

        “And it’s pretty simple. I think integrity is very important. If you
        don’t have integrity, I don’t know how you can be successful. Yeah, I know he’s great at Alabama and he’ll probably win another national championship, but I just don’t like people that don’t have integrity. So it’s pretty easy for me to say I don’t want Nick Saban in town.”

        • http://www.clevelandfrowns.com/ Cleveland Frowns

          Like I said above, I don’t know the full story about what happened with Saban in Miami, but I do know that the football coaching business is cutthroat, and with football clubs and programs so quick to fire coaches there’s no good reason that shouldn’t cut both ways such that a guy doesn’t have every right to take advantage of the once in a lifetime opportunity that Saban seized — to legendary effect — in Alabama.

          I’m sure Saban has grown plenty since then anyway and I’m also not so inclined to make Jaws an arbiter of what ‘integrity’ is.

          • BIKI024

            true dat, afterall Jaws played his college ball in Youngstown, which is notorious for being one of the most corrupt cities in the US, as well as my birthplace. something in the water over there in the Yompton!

          • http://twitter.com/cpmack Chris Mc

            “I’m also not so inclined to make Jaws an arbiter of what ‘integrity’ is.

            Liked for this.

          • Seth

            Truth, dumba** Jaws opinions could be a very active twitter account, including gems like rating Joe Flacco as the #9 QB(!!!!!) in the NFL(!!!!!) and RGIII, Luck, and Russel Wilson outside the top 15. LOL Jaws, you so crazy. With stupidity at that level I’m surprised he never found his way into some sort of consulting gig with the Browns.

          • jaws.

            at the same time do you really want to chase the cat up the belichick tree again? I’m all for aggressively suiting chip kelly: I want to see some entertaining, attractive browns football. I wan’t to try something other than grasping at the ghost of the coach that got away. I certainly don’t hate Nick Saban, but he does constantly have a talent advantage at ‘bama due to superior recruiting. Meanwhile Chip Kelly constantly recruits worse than his main rivals and yet still wins. Give me the guy who does more with less.

    • bupalos

      And speaking of…I’ve not gotten credit for the cowboys for the all play. Though this fits under “point grubbing” instead of integrity, weeden has me holding on by my fingernails and I needs it.

      • http://www.clevelandfrowns.com/ Cleveland Frowns

        #pointgrubbingwithintegrity

  • Bernietocatcherguy

    Optimism for next year? How much can we blame on the coaching staff? What are the odds we land somebody with any talent as a coach?

  • Bernietocatcherguy

    …and has anyone written to Haslam about Mangini yet? I think we should inundate him with handwritten letters that we have the next great coach living in the city!!!

    • alexb

      mangini lives in cleveland?

  • BIKI024
    • http://www.clevelandfrowns.com/ Cleveland Frowns

      Ugh.

      • BIKI024

        although, after further reading it, it appears that he is paying, but the woman wants a lot more. seems like his other baby momma was looking for $70K per month! sweet feathury jesus!

        • SteamingPileOfCraphonsoThorpe

          I had the same reaction. I’m assuming Frowns, given his day job, could fill in the details, but I go on the assumption that child support is like any other negotiation – one side asks for an outrageous number as a starting point, knowing they’ll get nowhere near that amount, but so they can negotiate down to the number they actually expect. That, and I assume $70k per month would actually exceed his current NFL annual earnings, less taxes, given the “circling the bowl” nature of his career. Yet another reason to work on catching the ball – so you can afford to pay child support! But, since forethought and planning are often lacking in this type of situation, not a surprising outcome at all.

          • trashycamaro

            Depends on the state. Most states have a formula. In Alabama the Judge must state his particular reasoning for deviating from the formula.

        • BigDigg

          No love lost with Bray Bray, nor any respect for those that do not take care of their responsibilities. It’s a tough life and uphill climb for kids in that situation. Here’s hoping that he’s at least involved.

          That said – i never understood how courts set these things and why there isn’t a standard sensible limit in place. Kids are expensive but it’s pretty clear who benefits most from a $70k/mo. arrangement.

          • BIKI024

            there’s a formula, but it roughly comes out to 10% of yearly salary and gets renegotiated if there;s a 20% swing one way or the other.

          • Jim

            There is a standard, at least in Ohio. The annual amount of child support is based on statute, which looks at gross income and the number of children. It has a lengthy chart that breaks down the total amount the obligee would owe based on those two factors. There are ways to deviate from this, but it is not as easy as one thinks to obtain a downward deviation, and courts are typically loathe to order child support amounts less than what is called for by statute.

          • Yahmule

            Imagine how many kids guys like Antonio Cromartie and Travis Henry would have produced if they were paying the same amount of child support as the average non-custodial parent.

  • http://twitter.com/cpmack Chris Mc

    I’ve been defending Weeden all year, but I’ve got nothing left. If the next coach wants to give him a shot, fine. If he doesn’t, that’s fine also.

    That pick that he threw to Fletcher was easily the worst pick I’ve ever seen. Greg Little literally ran wide open 30 yards across the field before Weeden saw him, then Weeden threw the pass 10 yards short, 3 seconds late.

    • Art_Brosef

      I’m in the same boat, I wanted to like him but I’ve got nothing left. I watched the game with my buddy who started at QB all four years I was at schoo and he was shocked at how bad Weeden was.

  • http://twitter.com/JRichTCF Jeff Rich

    Good for Frisman Jackson. He’s done a good job in DeKalb with Nathan Palmer, Martel Moore, and Perez Ashford; Harnish and Lynch aren’t all legs, they need targets too. Obviously Doeren believes in him, if he’s taking him to Raliegh with him.

  • http://twitter.com/JRichTCF Jeff Rich

    Random question: Would the Browns be better off if their coaching search was limited to only their own re-treads? Mangini, Marty, Sam; Chris Palmer was 2-2 against the Steelers, what’s he up to? Maybe they could get Maurice Carthon to come in for an interview.

    • BIKI024

      Palmer recently got canned by Titans, he was their OC..

    • http://www.clevelandfrowns.com/ Cleveland Frowns

      It’s beyond debate that the answer to that question is “yes” but I don’t see how that advances the discussion at this forum.

      • http://twitter.com/JRichTCF Jeff Rich

        It probably doesn’t, and I think Mangini would be a wonderful turn of events. I have to confess that I’d only accept Marty on the condition that he wears the tan overcoat with the Browns patch on it during inclement weather.

        • http://www.clevelandfrowns.com/ Cleveland Frowns

          I would insist on that condition with Marty myself and I apologize if my comment came off as too harsh because it probably is worth a reminder.

        • GrandRapidsRustlers

          Let’s get the gleam!

    • alexb

      If anybody mentions Butch i will meet to fight.

  • Brian Sipe

    Saban as our Head Coach and Mangini as D cord… The good thing about Sunday’s loss was that it made EVERYONE look horrible so there is no reason to keep any of them. Too many people wanted to keep this guy but let that one go, etc

    • alexb

      do we really want to rip this D up and go back to the 3-4? Not that I don’t like the 3-4 but we’ve now built up around the 4-3 and seem to have something good going. If anything i’d like to see them hybrid it, if Teo gets taken early i’m thinkin Mingo or Werner are those prototype college DE’s that can transition to being the outside backers in a 3-4. So with them we can give teams some different looks and also use them as 3rd down edge rushers in the normal 4-3 set.

      • jaws.

        listen, with our current guys we can change to the 3-4 easily. People just overblow that shit so much but we got enough big body d-linemen we could play 3-4 defense next year without much incident.

        • alexb

          who would be the outside backer? “Maybe” Fujita, but who knows if that guys at the end of his career. WHo else would be that 3-4 hybrid guy for us? There’s a couple prospects in the draft like Mingo and Werner, but as of right now we absolutely fit better for a 4-3.

          • jaws.

            well sheard can play on the left side, where he does, but yeah we need that stud outside pass rusher whether we go forward playing 4-3 or 3-4.

          • alexb

            well for a prototype 4-3 I think we’re good on both sides with what we’ve got. Parker and Rucker are both solid DE’s, Parker I think has nasty written all over him. I was at alot of games earlier in the season and he was borderline unblockeable, the qb’s were just getting the ball out quick which is the only reason he doesn’t have alot more sacks than he does. He was utterly embarrassing some of the Eagles, Bengals and Steeler tackle’s. Jabaal is actually the guy who i’ve been the most disappointed with this season in terms of his pass rush. But they’ve all been decent against the run so I can’t complain, it’s been primarily on the LB’ers when we’ve gotten gouged by runs this year.

            If we pick up a Mingo or Werner type DE we can do kind of what Baltimore does but possibly better. We can switch between a prototype 4-3 like we have now or bring in one of those guys and run a 3-4 and of course have a completely fresh set of down lineman on every play, lol.

            Thing is if Teo is there at 5 or 6 where we’ll be likely drafting, do you take him? Can he play with DQ? Could he be an outside pass rusher or can he only be a MIke? He has the size and speed to play hybrid in a 3-4, i think he’s pushing 260 lbs. Or he could play inside with DQ in a 3-4 look. We’d still need to pick up an outside rush LB either in free agency or the draft.

          • jaws.

            everybody is doubling sheard because parker and frostee are marginal as pass rushers. They are good depth but they aren’t anything you can’t replace. One of our top priorities in the draft should be an outside pass rush guy, whether we are going forward with the 3-4 or the 4-3. Meanwhile we have two space-clogger defensive tackles with skill (Taylor and Tuba) and another big guy with some ability (billy winn) to be the third down lineman against big sets.

            Also, in the draft we could fit Te’o in the 4-3 (if he plays middle and DQ moves to weakside) or the 3-4 (he and DQ could play in the middle while sheard plays on the left). That might be our best bet, but either way we still need that right DE or right OLB pass rush guy to really complete our front.

          • alexb

            I haven’t been seeing those doubles on Sheard, and I was watching for em. Tough to see sometimes on tv…but was definitely watching at the games. Parker looked to me like the much more dynamic pass rusher at the games I was at. The opener against Philly we were all like who the F is 95. The biggest dude on the field was the Philly left tackle, by far….it was comical how he towered over everybody in the huddle. But Parker was using him. Vick was running the whole game, if Sheard got anything that game it was cause the right side rush was chasing Vick to spill out towards Sheard. It’s only the last couple weeks that I’ve seen Sheard start to really get close.
            Oh and Sheard would have to lose at least 15 lbs to play the outside backer in a 3-4. That’s not his game. If we’re gonna go to a 3-4 Sheard is gonna stay at that outside DE spot and then we’d have to go out and draft someone like Moore, Wingo or Werner. Moore is likely not gonna be there but we’d have a shot at Wingo or Werner.

          • Cranky M

            Te’o Shme’o. nd he had 46 solo tackles all season. That’s less than 4 solo tackles per game. And he caused zero fumbles. ZERO. Along with a whopping 1.5 sacks.

            Not saying the dude can’t play, but i think people are going a bit overboard about him. There is no reason whatsoever for the Browns to spend a high draft choice on him. He isn’t good enough to justify passing on a need in order to grab him that high.

          • alexb

            They run a 3-4 in ND right? hmm, i dunno….maybe that’s why not everything is solo. Guess he’s got to pass the eye test. From what i saw of ND games he was a beast. Fast and large and from what analysts say also very smart….that’s a good combo. Could we fit him into the 4-3 scheme here? i don’t know. If he’s a Lewis or Urlacher type talent like they claim he is then it would be tough to pass. I like that Werner kid in Florida though

  • alexb

    Weedon can’t throw over the top of the lb’ers. Can we all see that clearly now? The skins would bring the backers up to the line and then drop them back and slide them underneath. And they knew exactly where Weedon was gonna throw it cause he never looks the whole field down despite having quite possibly the most time to throw in the regular pocket than any qb has had in the history of the NFL. I know Roethlisberger sometimes has a full solstice to throw the ball but that’s after shaking off the entire d line and running from sideline to sideline. Weedon doesn’t need to move. It’s inexcusable. But it’s also the system. It’s hard to understand that they can’t figure out routes to get our receivers consistently free when the kid can throw 70 yds and has all day to throw it. But I understand why they won’t let him throw much over the middle when there’s a lb’er slinking around in the grass just waiting for a ball coming over the top 6ft off the ground.
    I’m still uggghhh over the thought of another overhaul though. Honestly don’t fucking touch the defense except if you can bring in better position players. But don’t fuck around with the scheme again. We’ve got a budding D line that has greatness but most importantly “consistency” written all over it.

    • alexb

      to illustrate my point about the d line, look at what happened to that all star line last night when J. Smith left the game, it showed how much Aldon benefits from Justin collapsing that side. The Browns line might not put out like the 49’ers but we can absorb some losses, they obviously can’t. And if both Aldon and Justin are dinged it’s over for them, no SB for you.

      • http://www.clevelandfrowns.com/ Cleveland Frowns

        Dang I didn’t see that both of those guys got hurt. How bad is it I wonder?

        • alexb

          dunno, J.Smith came in for one play after having his elbow x rayed, they had it wrapped…went back out after one play and took the wrap off, done for the night. Doesn’t sound too good. Aldon looked like he dinged his shoulder htting Brady, he kind of phoned it in after that. But honestly he was he getting completely stuffed by the tackle even before that. Most of the game Justin and Aldon were getting close but Brady knew that was coming and was getting rid of it. After Smith left Aldon never really got close until he hit Brady after the pass.

        • dukem1

          Frownie – (may I call you Frownie?) – I must thank you so much, in these hours of football misery, for your shout-out to the greatest show on turf…
          .I’ll admit that I’ve been hooked on the Browns for my entire life – worse than some Snopesian also-ran on “Justified’ is into Oxy – but those Rams were just the best, coolest football team in the last 30 years…and really, for all the knowledgeable posters here on this site, me included, who want to discuss the merits of this QB or that…I say, take a minute and picture Kurt Warner playing arena football, and stacking boxes in some supermarket…
          Man, nobody knows nuthin’ in this crazy world.

          • http://www.clevelandfrowns.com/ Cleveland Frowns

            Like button and people call me a lot worse than Frownie.

          • rgrunds

            How’s “arfdog”?

    • rgrunds

      Do you think Weeden hurt his arm pitching so he can’t elevate it above a certain level? I used to play center field and popped a ligament. I could never get the same high arm slot I had before the injury.

      • alexb

        then how could he throw the deep ball? I dunno I’m no expert on arm mechanics and what happens to it after an injury. It is within the realm of possibility that years of throwing a baseball has somehow taken it’s toll on his arm and precludes him from certain throws. Imo it’s unlikely that has anything to do with the fact he doesn’t have the touch to throw over the lb’ers and infront of the secondary. I mean he really cannot throw those routes….he’s “way” off on them. It’s possible it’s a confidence issue like Martz suggested, he gets scared of overthrowing into a waiting DB so he de elevates the ball. I dunno. He throws awesome slants along with some deep routes. Problem is the d lineman are squatting in his preferred lanes so they’re taking away the routes he’s good at. That’s why he has so many damn batted down passes. He’s 6’4 with an overarm style of throwing, so this should rarely be happening. It’s not like he’s Kosar. He just doesn’t have the touch to throw good play action which FFS is gonna be crucial when defense’s stack the box against Trent.

        • rgrunds

          Yeah. Sounds like you have a better approach. Weeden’s problem…..when the mind fails, the body will follow.

  • James

    Frownie, I was wondering if you caught this piece re. Andrew Luck and Bruce Arians. I think it provides quite the contrast to what we’ve seen here in Cleveland the last few years.

    http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1433597-afc-south-all-22-review-arians-offense-means-high-risk-reward-for-andrew-luck

    • jpftribe

      Great link, especially for BR. A lot of insight in that article when you contrast to Shurmurball.

      • Ron

        Great article. Although, I’m sure it’s easier to take this approach when you have a QB who has the intelligence to learn quickly and your franchise hasn’t been a dumpster fire for 13 years.

    • http://www.clevelandfrowns.com/ Cleveland Frowns

      Will check it out. Thanks.

  • jpftribe

    Patterson and his 16M contract cut today. Banner has his red pen out already.

  • atdietz80

    Patterson must have been a problem in the locker room to get cut in-season. It is not like the team is saving money by doing this with two games left. It could be a rebuke on Tom Heckert, as well.

  • SteamingPileOfCraphonsoThorpe

    All right, everyone say it with me, in full Mike Polk fashion:
    At least we’re not…
    the JETS! (insert Price is Right Fail Horn here)

    • Steve

      Sanchez is 3 years younger than Weeden. I wouldn’t necessarily be looking to get him, but I think I’d take him over what we have now.

      • NeedsFoodBadly

        That’s actually insane. Weeden isn’t even through his first season, giving him an elusive air of mystery and potential. Sanchez is a known quantity, and that quantity is massive amounts of suck. Since QBR is the language ’round these parts, let me point out that with last night’s stunning performance, Sanchez is actually immediately south of Weeden in season-long QBR rating. And he’s been in the league for four years now.

        • Steve

          I understand all of that. I still think (as in, displaying some hesitance) I’d take the younger guy. I think progressing towards your prime is more important than experience. Chris Weinke didn’t improve after his rookie year.

          • Cranky M

            And Weeden obviously must be the exact same as Weinke in every way, just by virtue of their ages when drafted…

          • Steve

            Well, who can we compare Weeden to? Just guys who ended up with solid NFL careers? So many people just go “rookie!” and wash away the sins of Weeden as if every QB makes a leap in the second year. This is even less appropriate to do for Weeden than compare him to Weinke.

          • Cranky M

            Why do we need to compare him to another specific quarterback? There’s no reason for it. People picking arbitrary reasons to compare certain players drives me absolutely insane. Weeden and Weinke aren’t the same just because they were both old. RG3 is not like Newton and Vick just because they’re all black and can run. Russell Wilson isn’t like Drew Brees just because they are both short. It’s just plain silly.

      • alexb

        no!! don’t like weedon but at least he can throw the deep ball. No no and no on Sanchez. I’d take Tebow over sanchez cause at least he can run. I’d take Vick over Sanchez too.

    • http://www.clevelandfrowns.com/ Cleveland Frowns

      Like button

  • rgrunds

    FrOrange, I love your column and some days I even like you.. a little bit…..but you are so wrong about the Indians and the Redskins. They are not racist symbols. At worst, they are cartoon caricatures. Like Yosemite Sam. I mean, you would ban Betty Boop because she insults true femaleness. The reference to Indians as name for athletic teams is out of admiration for their physical prowess and ethos of combat with respect to adversaries. I mean, if one were to use your logic, the Israeli teams couldn’t be called Maccabia (actually the Macabees were conservative theocrats who set up a state similar to that in Iran under the Ayatollahs) because that makes reference to Jews. I have the profile of a Shawmut Indian on my hockey jersey. It’s an appreciative (even wistful) monument to a people who fought for themselves and who maintained an idea of honor. Unlike the coprporatized pragmatism of N. Europeans today.

    • Wiseoldredbeard

      Yosemite Sam and Betty Boop? You clearly don’t get it, and this actually makes me a little sick.

      • rgrunds

        Sorry for your distress. Perhaps you should take something for your bleeding heart.

    • nj0

      “Of course, it didn’t hurt that the new name also happened to
      reinforce the image of Natives as anachronistic savages, the ballclub a fearsome force to be reckoned with. “In place of the Naps, we’ll have the Indians, on the warpath all the time, and eager for scalps to dangleat their belts,” wrote the Cleveland Leader in announcing the name change on January 17, 1915. In fact, none of the reports from the four daily Cleveland newspapers even mentions Sockalexis, but each is replete with negative stereotypes.

      The Plain Dealer of the same day included a cartoon titled “Ki
      Yi Waugh Woop! They’re Indians.” The panel depicts, among other things,a frowning umpire scolding a Native American who says to him, “WUKWOG-O.”

      “When you talk to me, talk English, you wukoig,” the ump replies. (The cartoon helpfully explains of “wukoig”: “That last word is in Indian.”)

      • rgrunds

        There’s a right and a wrong way to do it.

        • nj0

          If you think the above way is wrong, then you believe Wahoo is wrong.

      • alexb

        what the shit, is this for real? they really did that?

        • http://www.clevelandfrowns.com/ Cleveland Frowns

          Yes.

          • alexb

            and people actually give you shit for telling it like it is about what was really behind the wahoo thing…unbeleivable.

    • http://twitter.com/cpmack Chris Mc

      In order for your Jewish reference to even be in the same ballpark, wouldn’t their mascot have to be wearing payot and a shtreimel and have a comically-sized hooked nose?

      • rgrunds

        Or, like the Redskins mascot, have an image of David holding Goliath’s head in hand. (I see what you mean, but I just don’t believe you have to abolish all references to ethnic groups)

        • http://twitter.com/cpmack Chris Mc

          Not all of them. Just Wahoo.

          • rgrunds

            That’s fair. They could re-do Wahoo. My fiance was an Abnaki Indian. She was magnificent. I’d be proud to be an Indian.

          • James

            I’m proud of things I accomplish, not of things that are incidental happenstances of birth.

          • rgrunds

            You’re a credit to your race.

  • rgrunds

    And, the Black Panthers shouldn’t refer to skin color or to other humans as animals.

  • Cranky M

    I would just like to remind everybody that before the draft, i said on here that the Browns should draft Cousins or Russell Wilson. Feel free to contact me about any GM openings you may have.

    I can’t even try to defend Weeden after that. I give up.

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