X’s and O’s with the Bros: Still in the Weeds

by Cleveland Frowns on December 20, 2012

Welcome to the latest edition of X’s and O’s with the Bros by X’s and O’s editor @rodofdisaster. This feature represents a basic attempt to look deeper into the game of football, learn something about the X’s and O’s that make it go, and better appreciate the games within the game. It’s called “X’s and O’s with the Bros” because you don’t have to be a player, coach, or rocket surgeon to get something out of taking a closer look at a football play, so please enjoy the post and the discussion in the comments.

This week, we’re in the Weeds again. Here’s Rod.

————-

Situation: 3rd Quarter; 1:15 left
Score: Redskins 24, Browns 14
Down & Distance: 1st & 10 on Redskins’ 43

presnap

The Browns come out in 12-personnel (1 RB, 2 TE, 2WR). They are in an I-formation with one Smith playing fullback. The Redskins counter with base 3-4 personnel.

Washington has one safety deep. This is called “MOFC” or “Middle Of the Field Closed” as opposed to “MOFO” or “Middle Of the Field Open” where there’s no safety in the middle of the field. The former suggests “Odd” deep shells (e.g., Cover-1 or Cover-3) and the latter suggests “Even” shells (e.g., Cover-2 or Cover-4). One deep safety and four rushers leaves six men in coverage, suggesting Man-free or Cover-3 zone, and that the open areas will be to the outside of the field.

The second TE, Watson, shifts off the line and motions left to right (see hashed arrow) to an H-back position off of RT Schwartz’s hip. The safety that’s down near the line (Doughty) has motioned across with him suggesting man-to-man coverage.

PLAY ACTION

play action

Here we see Weeden quickly turning his head around after faking to Richardson. The line is moving left as if in a zone-blocking scheme. That leaves Doughty unblocked on the right end. Alex Smith is coming across to block him.

The Redskins are in zone coverage. It looks like a pattern-matched zone, though it could also be cover-2 trap or a half-quarter deep concept. Downfield, we notice a couple things right away:

1) The safety (circled) is cheating over to his left and he and the corner underneath him are playing a “high-low” bracket on Little. That means the corner will try to stay underneath the receiver and the safety will not let him get past him deep. It’s only a two-receiver pattern so the corner isn’t pressured to play the flat. There’s also such a thing as an “inside-out” bracket that doubles the receiver horizontally. Little is essentially doubled.

2) The corner on the other side of the field (B) is straight-up man-to-man with Gordon playing soft coverage which is probably because he doesn’t have any help deep. He’s the only one who’s turned his back to the QB and that’s a man coverage look. The issue is that he probably has no underneath threat either and is instructed to carry his man deep.

3) The linebackers have all flowed with the play action but since the Browns are keeping three eligible receivers (Richardson, Smith and Watson) in to block or carry out the fake, they get depth and start to play shallow zones on the play-side of the fake.

It’s hard to make too many determinations about coverage responsibilities when the offense keeps so many eligible receivers out of the pattern. .

OPEN!

open side

OPEN

Here we see something interesting develop. Little is running an inside breaking route across the middle. This is a variation on the in-cutting “4” route called an “Over” route. which drags deep to the opposite corner. The linebackers, sucked in by play-action, aren’t deep enough and Little breaks wide open with room to run.

From the end zone, we see that Weeden is under no pressure at all. There’s no reason at all that the ball shouldn’t be out by now. Weeden also continues to stare Little down but with the receiver so open that’s beside the point.

throw

By the time Weeden finally gets around to throwing the  football, Little is nearly on the numbers.

throw from side

As we can see above, three things have occurred as a result of the delay:

1) Even if Weeden completes the pass, Little — who is still technically open — now is up against the sideline. A properly timed throw would have given him lots of room to run.

2) LB London Fletcher has been allowed to recover and get depth.

3) Doughty has pushed Smith back toward Weeden. This results in Weeden falling off to the side as he throws and bringing his arm through well after rotating his hips resulting in a horrible throw.

INTERCEPTION

pick

Here we see that the pass is at least five yards short, and picked off by London Fletcher. Weeden is facing the sideline because he’s rotated his hips so far ahead of his upper body. It doesn’t work in baseball and doesn’t work here.

DISCUSSION

As we’ve gotten to know Brandon Weeden here since draft day, certain characteristics have consistently stood out:

He understands coverages and progressions but goes through periods of staring down his primary receiver and can get sloppy with his footwork.”

And, “at this point of the season he’s showing an alarming lack of consistency in his ability to see the field, deliver the ball on time, and keep consistent mechanics, especially given the excellent pass protection he’s been getting.”

Indecisiveness and questionable mechanics tend to go hand-in-hand, and the above play — as broken down by the folks at Dawgs By Nature as well — is another microcosm of how this works. Thrown on time, this goes at least 25 yards downfield — likely more if Little can make a play. And the only possible excuse for the bad timing in this instance is indecision. Weeden either isn’t trusting himself, isn’t seeing the play develop fast enough, or both, and all the arm talent in the world won’t overcome these problems.

Which have also contributed to Weeden becoming — like so many Ghosts of Browns Quarterbacks Past — a checkdown machine. Mike Martz was all over this Sunday calling the game for Fox, and made reference several times to the fact that receivers won’t always be as open as the quarterback might like them to be, the obvious implication being that Weeden — as we’ve observed all season — was leaving plays all over the field again on Sunday; plays that an NFL quarterback is supposed to make.

Of course, on this day Weeden’s issues appeared even more starkly behind the backdrop of the opponent’s rookie fourth-round backup’s performance, making his first career NFL start and rolling up 329 yards and two touchdowns against the Browns defense. How many times did Kirk Cousins turn his back to the defense on a play fake and come up firing to the correct receiver every time? How many times did he step into the pressure and deliver a completion?

While Pat Shurmur’s future in Cleveland is all but a foregone conclusion now, we also heard reports this week that Joe Banner would hold Tom Heckert to account for failing to land that other Redskins rookie quarterback in last April’s draft. It’s a quarterback’s league, it’s week 14, and a 29-year-old anointed rookie starting quarterback has made no discernible progress in addressing the same weaknesses that bloggers identified on draft day.

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The complete “Xs and Os with the Bros” archive is available here.

  • http://www.clevelandfrowns.com/ Cleveland Frowns

    Something about carriages and pumpkins and Weeden and Trent Edwards …

  • http://www.clevelandfrowns.com/ Cleveland Frowns
    • WooMike

      Excellent article, thanks for sharing.

    • NeedsFoodBadly

      I don’t know, that reads pretty fishy. Someone around here yesterday made a pretty compelling argument that athletes and real men don’t understand math. SO HOW IS KITNA TEACHING ALGEBRA? I think this whole thing is photoshopped.

      • Kamov

        He’s one o’ those sissified men now, I guess.

    • jpftribe

      Great link, thanks for that.

  • GrandRapidsRustlers

    Brandon: I did not see him Pat.

    Colt: I did but I can’t throw it that far.

    Sad face all around. Throw out all the numerical metrics and these pictures are just painful.

    • bupalos

      Colt is no rocket, but ANYONE could complete that pass. Weeden lost that game almost singlehandedly. Almost, because the coaching staff doing nothing to counter the laughably repeatable bootleg that accounted for about 60% of their offense was bad too. But that was one of the worst games I’ve seen any Browns QB play. I don’t think he completed a thing outside of simple pre-snap read slants. The 4th and 3 was almost as bad, the other interception was horrible and probably the reason he held the ball here.

      >>>Throw out all the numerical metrics and these pictures are just painful.>>>

      That’s why I’ve been down on this guy. I wouldn’t mind if his numbers were worse than they already are…he isn’t making the simple “stay in the league” plays. He hasn’t been all year. A couple decently placed bombs, a couple impressive rockets to the sideline. Beyond that it’s just some simple slants and a ton of garbage and badly missed opportunity. I’m ready for chips. Let this guy try out next fall with another coach and some more competition.

      • CleveLandThatILove

        I would bet that a secret locker room vote would put Colt on the field Sunday in a hot minute.

        • GrandRapidsRustlers

          This would be fascinating to me mainly because the players always know.

          • bupalos

            Two plays really swung that game away from the browns. They were both total brain fart interceptions by Weeds. I have a hard time thinking players can sit through film like that and think there’s anything worse on this roster.

      • http://twitter.com/cpmack Chris Mc

        “Beyond that it’s just some simple slants and a ton of garbage…”

        Which happens to fall on the offensive gameplan, not the quarterback*.

        *Don’t take this as me blindly defending Weeden. I just think it isn’t entirely his fault his coach doesn’t know how to gameplan around strengths. Shurmur is the anti Mike McCoy.

        • bupalos

          I’d actually say west coast is as close to Weeden’s skillset as presumed and demonstrated in college as anything could be. I’m not going to say they are great at it (I have no idea why screens fail so badly with this personnel, for instance.) I do think the planning is lacking, but…I mean, look at the second picture and just say to yourself “this is going to be an interception…do I really believe there is there any way to live with this quarterback?”

          • http://twitter.com/cpmack Chris Mc

            The WCO is miles away from what Weeden played in college with Dana Holgorsen. Not even remotely close, from what I can tell.

            The “Airraid”, what Holgorsen ran with Geno Smith at West Virginia this year, was the same offense that Weeden ran at Oklahoma State. Coincidentally, Hal Mumme (think Bill Walsh of the Airraid), is the same guy who made Tim Couch a star at Kentucky.

            http://youtu.be/6R1SM3uce6M

            It’s too much to explain in one comment, so here’s a pretty good link describing the basics of Holgorsen’s version of the system.

            http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/7005204/louisiana-state-vs-west-virginia

            “Holgorsen allows his players a staggering degree of freedom at the line, not just to get out of bad plays but also to find the right ones.”

            Another interesting question remains: Why can’t a variation of the system be used to shred zones in the NFL? Isn’t it about time for something new to take the NFL by storm? Especially since we already have a quarterback who knows the system inside and out, and it’s not something any NFL teams have had to plan for yet.

          • bupalos

            Not his system, his skillset: reading and getting the ball out quickly. I think if he projects as anything NFL parallel it would be WC.

            Now if it’s true that he can’t audible and select plays because Shurmur says so, then I see that side of it. But honestly, seeing him operate that play (which is the perfect play that worked perfectly) makes me question how valuable the kind of flexibility they’re talking about would be.

          • http://twitter.com/cpmack Chris Mc

            Shurmur’s WCO is universally mocked as an antiquated system. I don’t see any reason to believe that McCoy wouldn’t have the same issues that Weeden has with it.

            Since we almost universally agree that Shurmur has to go, I don’t understand why we are avoiding the scientific approach here and adjusting one variable to see if that corrects the problem before we change the second variable.

          • alexb

            Unless they’re planning on making a serious run at Flacco they should start McCoy for the last two games so he has some reason to be optimistic this offseason and works his ass off for the coming qb competition. If it’s just gonna be those two competing for the job we have to give McCoy something this season, not just for him but also for next years Coach to see Colt working with this roster in a “real” game. Pgh is gonna be a fight cause they’re battling for playoffs, so if Colt can win that game you have to take a hard look at him.

          • SteamingPileOfCraphonsoThorpe

            That brings up something I’ve wondered about and it would be cool if Rod could answer this: my suspicion about screen failures is that it’s some combination of easily recognizable personnel groupings/formations, poor timing on the part of the coaching staff (i.e., no one’s fooled by a screen on 3rd-and-20, but what about 2nd-and-5?), and our offense giving it away with “tells” that the DC’s picked up from film study. Does that sound about right?
            I mean, we have a strong, athletic line, and with Gordon/Little/sometimes Cribbs, we have the outside guys to block it. Why does it fail so often?

      • http://twitter.com/cpmack Chris Mc

        Fine. I hope you get your way, and we can finally see how bad McCoy is and bury the discussion for good.

        • bupalos

          I’m in no way arguing McCoy is good or a long term answer, and I have no interest in the “controversy” at all. I’m just arguing he’s pretty clearly better than Weeden right now and I think the “we drafted him high so we’ll play him” is corrosive.

          • http://twitter.com/cpmack Chris Mc

            What is your argument that McCoy’s “clearly better” based on? Weeden’s performance so far?

          • bupalos

            My argument would be based on his turning in similar or better performances with worse personnel. I say “right now” with weeds because I’m not ruling out that he can progress. But the trajectory is bad enough that I think the value of a slap to the face and a sit down is worth more than the value of letting him continue to exude his stink while marinating in Shurmur for now. Time to see if Colt’s made any use of his bench time.

          • SteamingPileOfCraphonsoThorpe

            The thought of “marinating in Shurmur” almost made me throw up the chicken Lo Mein I am eating. Hope I can finish now.

      • rodofdisaster

        McCoy does not have a rocket arm but you can’t generalize like that. McCoy can and does drive the ball downfield well between the numbers. He struggles to the outside. I would suspect he would have completed this pass easily.

        That’s not to say I think Colt is an NFL QB at this point but just that many guys, including Colt, would have completed this.

        • SteamingPileOfCraphonsoThorpe

          Thank you, thank you, thank you for posting that reply. I have made the point repeatedly that McCoy’s “long completions” were almost always down the middle of the field between the numbers. As much as Weeden’s deficiencies as pointed out here may mean he is not the answer to the question, “Who will finally succeed as a QB for the Browns?”, McCoy’s physical limitations may disqualify him as well. Not a single time when I brought up the “between the numbers” point has a poster been able to argue that I was wrong about that. Every NFL D-coordinator knows they can play McCoy inside out, rotating most of the coverage between the hash marks and playing single-coverage on the outside. And for what it’s worth, Colt’s completion percentage doesn’t guarantee he makes that throw, either, although I believe he would’ve at least recognized the coverage earlier and made a better attempt. Dear God, I wish we could stop arguing about how one guy’s weaknesses are another’s strengths and just find it all in one QB’s body!

        • actovegin1armstrong

          Rod’o,

          With Clot in there instead of Weeden, do you think the safety would have been thinking “middle of the field” instead of moving out?

          I am also very glad you explained this play, because when I saw it I thought Little read the safety and adjusted his route and that is why Weeden waited.

  • dwhalen

    Here’s my thing with Weeden, and this play exhibits it perfectly.

    1.You cannot possibly be any more open than Greg Little is on this play.

    2.Weeden has a perfect pocket.

    3.He is plenty deep because most guys are taught to be 7-8 yards from the line of scrimmage after running play action inside (whether it’s zone, dive, iso…)

    4.I’m not buying the argument that “maybe he doesn’t have a sight line to the receiver” because with the pre snap alignment we see only 2 linebackers that could possibly be anywhere in coverage near Little’s route. (This is where Pre-Snap judgment and film study do wonders). If Weeden could have anticipated what these linebackers were responsible for–especially seeing one safety, you can pretty much guarantee that the linebackers in the box will be symmetrical to his pre snap alignment post snap. (meaning no LB will be directly over the center in his drop). An odd number of linebackers in the box usually means 2 safeties, an even number of linebackers in the box usually means 1 safety. (Not always, but typically). Also, being on the left hashmark, seeing the defense and knowing that in all likelihood, the outside linebacker to the field is rushing the passer in most 3-4 schemes, this tells the QB that the inside linebacker to the field essentially has to turn and SPRINT to get to his assigned zone and/or throwing lane. And, that’s exactly what he does, clearing up the middle even more. BALL NEEDS TO BE THROWN. If Weeden throws on time, even if he is completely unaware of London Fletcher’s where-abouts, he cannot be wrong. Fletcher could have never been in the spot where little broke his route–not without there being a gaping hole where Weeden ended up throwing it. Because if London Fletcher cheats towards the middle, all Weeden then has to do is take the progression a half second longer (which is what he did anyways) and let Little clear the dropping backer.

    5. First thing you SHOULD be taught in most offenses, especially after play action is to find the weak-side safety. He will tell you 90% of what you need to know, based on his eyes, depth, and alignment. Since there is only one safety, you HAVE to quickly get your head turned completely around and check the back side corner, in which case you would also see London Fletcher dropping directly into the lane, widening outside the hash, letting you know that the middle of the field is WIDE OPEN. Because of course, you knew the other inside backer would be sprinting to get to the field hook-curl zone. If Weeden whips his head around to 10 o’clock instead of about 1 o’clock where it ends up. (Looking directly over the ball would be 12…like a clock, get it?)

    Number one rule in the “west coast offense” is to get ball to receivers on time, in space, with the ability to run. Therefore timing is important, and it’s not some mystical thing that happens by chance. It happens by understanding pre-snap alignments, even in the NFL, because after all, football is still JUST football and getting your eyes to the correct spot as quickly as possible. But instead, Weeden undoubtedly never counted the men in the box, never anticipated where the linebackers would be dropping to, and never got his eyes further left than his front shoulder. This left him completely unprepared for what he would see after the ball was snapped, and that is what led to him throwing the ball an entire second late. He likely didn’t make any pre-snap evaluations. He didn’t remember to get his eyes to the backside of the route (that is, if they even teach him to do so). And he didn’t have the instinctual ability to let the ball loose once he did see Little break open. All of this tells me one or both of two things: 1. his coaching staff has him unprepared for even a simple zone defense off of play action. or 2. they prepared him fine and the heat of the game freezes him, whereas he forgets to go through his process.

    that’s all. once again, nice breakdown, Rod.

    • http://www.facebook.com/people/Steve-White/100000446546049 Steve White

      Thanks for explaining that; I understand the issue a lot better now with your comments and Rod’s diagrams. That’s more than I’ll ever, ever get from cleveland.com.

    • http://patrick.veverka.net/ Patrick Veverka

      Thanks for this. Do you think these things are correctable?

      • dwhalen

        Of course. But there’s something to say about this play in particular in regard to the NFL and seeing the field. The coverage is basic as far as things go. Basically, what I learned in my short time with a few NFL teams is this: 1st and 2nd down defenses are going to be pretty vanilla and straight forward. 3rd down is going to be Star Wars–shit flying around chaotically. So, in the grand scheme of things, 1st and 2nd down are much more important than 3rd down. Why? because they are the foundation that builds drives. If you can get 3-4 yards per play then all of a sudden you’re in 3rd and 3 with an option to run or pass instead of 3rd and 8 or longer when most NFL teams call screens or draws. The teams with the best 3rd down conversion rate are also the best on 1st and second down. It’s a direct correlation.

        Anyways, what I’m getting at is that things are fixable, but the coverage was basic, and Little was not only open, but he is more open than you are likely to see in most high school games. Also, Weeden needs to recognize that Little is open before the ball is even snapped. This looks like as close to a pre-determined throw (which you almost never want to make) as ever. It’s fixable if Weeden is coached well, and it’s fixable if he takes what he’s coached and applies it to the game without freezing with stage fright. Right now, I think Colt McCoy is 5-times as mentally tough as Weeden in regard to interpreting and adapting on the fly and not getting flustered.

        That said, I’ve advocated giving guys 16 full games before you make a decision, but last week, when we were playing for our playoff lives, Weeden should have gotten pulled and they should have let Colt play a bit.

        Also, with my guy David Shaw signing a contract extension at Stanford, I have to come up with a new candidate of choice to fill Shurmur’s spot. At this point, I’m still determining who that is, I just know it isn’t Chip Kelly, Nick Saban or Josh McDaniels.

        • https://twitter.com/jimkanicki jimkanicki

          i wonder if kevin sumlin would pick up the phone..

    • rodofdisaster

      Thanks d-

      Agree 100%. Any thoughts on that defensive coverage?

      M

      • dwhalen

        based on the down and distance, i’d say the skins were expecting run, especially when the browns came out in 12 personnel. it’s just a zone scheme underneath and to the field, with no one even attempting to jam Greg Little on the line. Field corner has outside leverage and is essentially willing to give up anything underneath him, and yes, he’s reading the eyes of the QB instead of worrying about Little. It turns into a soft cover-2 shell to the field side, the safety takes Little if he doesn’t break his route before 18 yards or so. The corner and the three linebackers play a 4-under look (splitting the field into 4 zones at the first level). The backside corner to the boundary is playing man coverage and he will get some safety help on an inside breaking route (a post, typically) assuming the safety has no one pressing vertically to the field.

        If I’m in Weeden’s shoes and I come to the line of scrimmage and see the field corner 2 yards outside of Little, and playing zone, I know he wants to keep Little inside. I also know that there’s no linebacker who will be able to get hands on Little before 5 yards. I know that the inside backer who will be responsible for the hook curl cannot physically get there in time unless he turns his head away from me (the QB) and runs to his spot. All of these things tell me as a quarterback with a playaction pass with only two receivers in a route that I should half-ass the play fake and get my head turned back around as soon as i possibly can and get Little the football even before he breaks his dig across the middle. It’s almost a “hot” throw, or what we call a “now” route. It has to be communicated between the WR and QB somehow at the line of scrimmage so the WR is looking for the football early.

        If you look at the 2nd screenshot above, when Little is crossing the 40 yard line, if Weeden anticipates what the pre-snap read told him, and plants his foot immediately after giving a quick play fake, and hits little at 7 yards, then Deangelo Hall is in no position to catch him, the linebackers are all underneath him, and the backside corner is in the process of turning his back. this means an accurate throw inside of 10 yards puts Little at full speed one-on-one with plenty of room to work the safety in the open field. I take Little in that matchup and I think it could be a touchdown. Of course the second option is just to correctly run the play as called and throw the ball to him on time in the gaping hole after he makes his break.

  • http://twitter.com/cpmack Chris Mc

    I was sitting in the Dawg Pound ( behind the safety here), and the entire section I was in audibly gasped when they saw Little break wide open over the middle of the field. It looked like Weeden was staring right at Little, live and on the tape here. I just really want to know what the hell he was looking at that made him completely miss this play.

    • bupalos

      I think Rod’s got it with his second guess. He just freezes when the batter rushes the mound. You don’t even need pressure, his brain just doesn’t work at football game speed. I was expecting more spectacular meltdowns like he was prone to in college, despite the fact that OkState’s offense was designed to take most of the QB’s brain out of the game post-snap. But this is really just as bad.

      • http://twitter.com/cpmack Chris Mc

        Perhaps, but he made some really nice throws on nearly identical crossing routes at other times in the game, one pass to Cameron and another to Little (and Gordon also I think). So to say that he’s completely unable to make the read is wrong; I just want to know why he missed the read in this particular case.

        • bupalos

          I think “missed the read” assumes a bit too much. He can definitely see the LB on that side. He can definitely see the corner. He can definitely see all the open space in front of and around Little, and I don’t see how he can’t see Little too with his drop that deep. What I’m trying to say is that it’s not really a read. He’s staring right at pure gold and just doesn’t do anything. He has enough time to take advantage of this even if it was something completely unexpected.

          The only thing I’d allow is maybe he thinks another receiver is supposed to be running his route from the other side into that space bringing coverage with him, like this was supposed to be some kind of pick play or something, so he’s going to wait and throw on the other side of that. That’s hard to imagine.

          • http://twitter.com/cpmack Chris Mc

            “What I’m trying to say is that it’s not really a read. He’s staring right at pure gold and just doesn’t do anything.”

            But it is a read. He should have known that Little would be open the moment the ball snapped. Since he waited until Little was wide open to throw the ball, he was entirely too late.

          • bupalos

            Moment the ball snapped I’ll say no. There should have been deeper LBs. This play comes open because the combination of the way the corner bails out and the LBs being a little aggressive on the play action. A read should have had him ready for this, especially since you’d guess it’s the whole idea of the play, but even if it was a complete shock, there was just plenty of time to go get it.

            The bottom line is that when you see that in front of you, you pull the trigger. I think he had nearly a whole second *after seeing this open* to release. Have to think his previous int, where he underestimated how deep the LB was, was in his head.

            Maybe I’m being harsh with a *cough-cough* mature rookie. I hope so. But there really is no reason to be playing a guy that is making plays like that right now.

          • alexb

            He looks scared to throw when he thinks a lb’er is sliding underneath his routes. I think he knows he doesn’t throw the ball well over the lb’ers and infront of coverage. There’s just some throws that guys aren’t good at. To be a qb in the leage though you have to be able to throw over the top of lb’ers and drop it into your receiver in stride and low so he doesn’t get a rib killshot.

    • GrandRapidsRustlers

      Funny…I have a friend sitting on the other side of the stadium. About midway thru the 3rd quarter he sent a text that said “Little should have 200 yards by now. He is running free all day”

      It’s pictures like this and the fact that the Skins are a horrible pass defense that really just make you sad.

      • actovegin1armstrong

        GRR,
        Am I recalling this incorrectly, or were you on the Russell Wilson bandwagon last year too?

        • GrandRapidsRustlers

          I was seated on that wagon…was not driving it like some others here. Really liked him last year (part his game and part cheddar bay) My main fear was avoiding Tannehill and Foles.

          I thought Wilson could be a good pro. I don’t think anyone expected this level of play this soon. This draft could have 4 guys who play a decade and we ended up with none of them. (I think Cousins is the 4th and Washington will get a kings ransom for him and get all the draft picks they gave up for RG3 back)

  • Bernietocatcherguy

    Here’s an interesting discussion. What would Mangini do with Weeden and Richardson. I have a feeling we might not be having these depressing conversations right now. Thoughts?

    • bupalos

      I don’t think he’d play Weeden. If Mangini had input, I don’t think we’d even have Weeden.

      • Bernietocatcherguy

        Where would we be? Or to be more on point, if he came here next year, would do you think would happen with our QB’s?

        • bupalos

          I think we’d draft a young hungry guy, play chips until he got hurt, then play said guy.

  • bupalos

    Honestly, I don’t know how anyone can look at that second pic, the protection, the spacing, the wide open guy he’s staring right at, and not seriously consider just cutting bait on this guy now. It’s hard to imagine a much worse interception. Still at a loss.

  • Bernietocatcherguy

    What they were thinking

    Little: “oh man, oh man, oh man, I’m so open…aw come on throw it already…no not too him”

    Weeden: “I wonder how long it took Colt to grow that beard, oh yeah football, watch me launch it off, my arm is so awesome, I’m pretty mature for a rookie, I wonder if the Yankees miss me, oh crap football, throw”

    Fletcher: “really?”

    • alexb

      that pretty gut damn funny actually.

  • bupalos

    ACTO! PICK US A QB.

    • NeedsFoodBadly

      Acto doesn’t believe in drafting quarterbacks. Football teams should consist entirely of defensive players and O-linemen, PERIOD.

      • http://www.clevelandfrowns.com/ Cleveland Frowns

        He’s probably right.

      • actovegin1armstrong

        I love you NFB! Funny stuff.

        I really liked Russell Wilson last year, but to be honest, this year I would take a re-tread. There are a bunch of rookie replacements playing this year, that means there are a bunch of once highly touted veterans out there. (Maybe even Clot McChips.)

        I would look at films of Alex Smith and the other three quality former starters that will be available. It may be a Steve Young year in 2013.
        The question is, are we ready to give up on Weeden?

        On the O-line point, have you seen Pouncey trying to make calls to create protection for Ruthlessraper?

        I hate to admit that he is really good.

  • Bryan

    This play came after Weeds’ first pick. The first pick was caused by Weeds completely missing a LB floating in the middle. Maybe Weeds saw Little open, but was gun shy because he wanted to be extra safe he didn’t miss the LB again. When he finally saw the LB and decided it was safe to make the throw, he got hit and underthrew the pass.

    All of this is still an indictment of Weeds, but the explanation is more psychological – his failure is due to a lack of confidence rather than a lack of intelligence. This strikes me as more plausible because early in the season he routinely tried to fit balls into tight spots, and routinely got rid of the ball quicker. And in college he played in an offense that require quick reads and lots of audibles. I just can’t believe that he isn’t smart enough. Rather I think he is losing confidence, and a lack of confidence combined with the speed of NFL defenses (combined with a bad coach) is a recipe for disaster. I think this interpretation is closer to what Martz was saying all day on Sunday.

  • dr.jew

    McCoy at this point is largely a wild card. Last year he played behind a porous line with terrible receivers under an offensive scheme that kept the entire game within seven yards of the line of scrimmage. Still, his numbers in 2011 were markedly better than Weeden’s are in 2012. He also was the winningest quarterback in NCAA history and is four years younger than Weeden. There’s really no legitimate reason why he shouldn’t be playing, particularly since he lost his starting position last year to injury.

  • munasrevenge

    Early Cheddar pick: Let me get in on on BYU (-3.5) over San Diego State tonight.

  • Harbaugh Handshakes

    HARBAUGH HANDSHAKES week 17

    BYU -3.5 vs San Diego St

  • actovegin1armstrong

    Did we have a Cheddar thread? My apologies to the great Rod’o for putting this in his parade.

    Cheddar for the also-rans with no hope

    Central Florida -7

    Boise St -5

    The Greatness of the Raiders +8.5

    Bungles +4 over the minions of evil from the pit

    The stinking Broncos -13.5 over our Beloved Browns

    ****Essay that should be ignored by all****

    Washington -5-5 over the Eagles

    RG3 is young and he heals quickly, (well…. For the time being), he will be ready to go for this game. He could have played last
    week, but against a third rate team he knew his cousin could handle the job.

    The Eagles are in turmoil, Foles is certainly better than
    the rotten dog torturer, but he is still in way over his head. I am starting to think that Frownie may be right and the respective “universe” is punishing Andy Reid for giving a stinking piece of scum a second chance.

    Most importantly the Eagles have been a turnover machine
    this year. I do not like to quote those
    evil statistics, (sorry jk), but the Eagles are terrible in turnover ratio they
    have 22 more giveaways than takeaways.
    That is a trend that has not diminished much since opening day against
    the Browns and it is usually guarantees a loss.

    • https://twitter.com/jimkanicki jimkanicki

      dropping broncos pending all-play call, kk?

      • actovegin1armstrong

        Sorry about that jk,
        What is the all-play?

        • https://twitter.com/jimkanicki jimkanicki

          nevermind, no allplay this week per frowns. youre good.

  • Deputy Glitters

    Thought’s on this plan? :

    1.) Hire Greg Roman, San Fran’s offensive coordinator (and graduate of John Carroll University).

    2.) Sign Alex Smith in free agency.

    3.) Draft Geno Smith to to assume a Kaepernick job in 2 years.

  • Bryan

    Rod – I would love to see a breakdown of T-Rich, and why he has been so ineffective with his YPC. It would be especially interesting to compare him to Hardesty, who has a much higher YPC. I would love to know if T-Rich is missing holes, or if Defenses are playing different fronts when T-Rich is on the field than they are when Hardesty is on the field, or something else.

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