“The best opportunity in the league right now”

by Cleveland Frowns on January 2, 2013

That’s what Joe Banner called the Cleveland Browns head coaching position, and that noise you hear is just Wahoo’s ghost laughing and firing up the soul grinder again.

Anyway, Ray Horton, Chip Kelly, Dirk Koetter, Bill O’Brien, Greg Roman and Mel Tucker all seem like fine candidates (and where’s David Shaw on this list?), assuming we’re operating under the constraints of a leadership team in Jimmy Haslam and Joe Banner that doesn’t have the smarts or leadership skills it would take to bring the top overall candidate back to Cleveland.

Relatedly, here’s a good quick read from KSK on how “we get the horrible NFL media that we deserve.”

And if you hadn’t already figured out that the Mike Holmgren Era in Cleveland was in fact one of the very absolute worst in NFL history, Stats LLC reports that the Browns’ fifth straight season with 11 or more losses is tied for the second longest of all time, just behind the Raiders’ six-year streak from ’03-’09.

If you missed it on Monday, Trent Richardson confirmed what was reported here first via Brandon Weeden’s cousin two weeks ago about how the rookie Browns running back played for most of the season with broken ribs.

And there’s a quote of the day and it’s from Pat Shurmur (via Bill Livingston):

“I’m a tough Polack from Detroit. I’m not soft.”

Which, unless something crazy happens, is all for today, other than a shout to Free Clowney, and congratulations to Clark Judge of CBS, who’s done some excellent NFL journalism in the past, and was just selected as one of now thirteen At Large representatives of the Pro Football Hall of Fame selection committee.

  • http://www.clevelandfrowns.com/ Cleveland Frowns

    We’ll post our NFL playoff picks on Friday, which is where the Cheddar Bay picks will go, too, once they’re submitted via the usual secret ballot. As far as I can tell, bupalos is the only one left who can make it, and if he does he won’t knock anyone out because there would be a tie for the last slot.

    Also, here’s another good little piece of media criticism from Tommy Craggs which I found looking at Deadspin year-end roundups:

    http://deadspin.com/5913309/the-ap-is-gay-for-stupid

    Also, why did “Polack” have to be censored out of Livy’s column?

    • bupalos

      I think if Moby hits his last pick and I hit my last two then I would replace GRR. If I hit my last two and Moby misses, then we’re all in, but those two are wildcards. Leastaways that’s how it seems to me.

      • http://www.clevelandfrowns.com/ Cleveland Frowns

        I think that’s right. If Moby doesn’t make a pick then you have a chance to all be in.

        • mo_by_dick

          word on the bay is that Moby will be picking the Oregon/Kansas St. game at least an hour before kickoff

          • GrandRapidsRustlers

            You should take the opposite of whatever @bupalos:disqus takes…;)

          • bupalos

            Yeah, that’s what that malevolent whale is lurking in the depths waiting for, the evil bastard…but that’s also why said Bupalos is keeping his pick super secret and sending it in to Kanick at 7:29 on Thurs.

            Supposing, that is, that the Cheddar gods deign to smile upon their poor servant tonight.

          • http://www.clevelandfrowns.com/ Cleveland Frowns

            Did you make your pick yet? If so, what is it?

          • bupalos

            On further review, I’m taking Louisville.

          • GrandRapidsRustlers

            Liked for first time ever seeing malevolent and whale right next to each other.

          • http://www.clevelandfrowns.com/ Cleveland Frowns

            Also liking for malevolent whale.

          • mo_by_dick
          • http://www.clevelandfrowns.com/ Cleveland Frowns

            Dang. I recommend that nobody else watch that video.

  • nj0

    1.) Can it really be Wahoo’s ghost when he clearly is still alive and well?

    2.) The Richardson thing goes up there with OSU tats story as an example of how cowardly and/or incompetent most sport reporting is. How can something so obvious that kin of players are aware of it go completely missed by reporters spending all week with the team?

    3.) Shurmur’s quote reminds me of the only good line from an otherwise terrible Vince Vaughn movie – “We’re talking about Polacks that don’t have a goddamn future. That’s right. We can make shit real uncomfortable around here and that’s what we’re going to do.” (YES, I have seen The Break-Up. I have no pride.)

    • http://www.clevelandfrowns.com/ Cleveland Frowns

      The apostrophe in “Wahoo’s ghost” is possessive, and could well refer to a conglomerate of ghosts but who could possibly know for sure?

      • nj0

        Gotcha.

      • Kamov

        A conglomerate of malevolent ghost whales has been hired by Chief Wahoo. Word on the street is that they’re heavily involved in the Brown’s coaching search… There you go, Peter King.

        Expect this story to break within hours, right after Holmgren takes the Dallas job after escaping the ice flow.

  • vespo09
  • BIKI024

    our old buddy Pete King has the Browns as the worst open opportunity in the league right now.

    • nj0

      He also referred to the St. Louis Rams as a dumpster fire.

      • bupalos

        Hey! Copyright!

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Steve-White/100000446546049 Steve White

    I haven’t seen Mangini’s name come up so far for any of the open positions. Is someone poisoning the well?

    • http://www.clevelandfrowns.com/ Cleveland Frowns

      Re: poisoned wells: I can post another link to Mangenius Interrupted if you need it. If he wants to come back in the league he’ll probably have to do it as a coordinator though I still hold to a sliver of hope that someone out there has the right combination of heart and smarts. Also, it happens all the time that someone gets hired who’s name hadn’t “come up” before he was interviewed.

      • http://www.facebook.com/people/Steve-White/100000446546049 Steve White

        I’ve read the Mangenius Interrupted a couple times. Superb, by the way.

        I was wondering because I would have thought that by now someone would be mentioning him if not interviewing him. He was okay with the Jets until Favre covered up his injury. He did an excellent job getting a completely talentless Browns to 5-11 twice. I wouldn’t want him drafting (especially 2nd round players) but as a tactician and game-day coach he’d be on my short list.

        • BIKI024

          oh u mean a coordinator

  • Bryan

    Frowns – I was expecting a good rant on Holmgren announcing he is interested in coaching again. The guy is just so slimy. And desperate.

    • nj0

      If he takes a HC job, does that mean the Browns don’t have to pay him?

      • http://www.clevelandfrowns.com/ Cleveland Frowns

        Probably not.

      • http://www.redright88.com/ Tom_RedRight88

        Any money that Holmgren, Heckert or Shurmur make in new jobs will offset what the Browns owe them, but not take the Browns off the hook completely. That’s the way these things normally work.

      • NeedsFoodBadly

        I think there was something in the contract when Haslam took over that kept Lerner on as a minority owner (to be phased out eventually), with the idea that Randy would still be responsible for Homgrum/Shermer salaries.

    • BIKI024

      can you blame the guy for not wanting to coach a team with unproven talent at QB the past 3 years? probably why we ended up sticking with Mangini the one year and Shurmur because nobody else wanted the job. I can only see him going somewhere that has a legit QB, so that only leaves Da Bears and Chargers as only two options.

      • http://www.clevelandfrowns.com/ Cleveland Frowns

        No I can’t blame the guy for wanting to be in a situation that’s the exact opposite of the mess he made here for 3 years.

        • BIKI024

          depends on what you call a mess, yes it’s been frustrating to see another losing season, but overall the the roster is in much better shape than what he inherited. yes, anyone can draft and play rookies, but most of these kids can play in the NFL and going this route should be able to give us a chance at some sustainable success.

          sure his offer of the most offered in a draft trade in NFL history came up short, and he wasn’t able to recruit a big named coach (and Haslam still might face that challenge) but the roster is in great shape with 25 guys on the very team friendly rookie wage scale, and the #6 pick and nearly $40m in cap room to expound on for this next coach.

          instead of trying to appease impatient fans by quick fixes, they decided to rebuild basically from scratch, and we should see the fruits of that strategy in the next year or 2.

          • http://www.clevelandfrowns.com/ Cleveland Frowns

            Tell us more about appeasing impatient fans, guy who wanted Mangini gone after four games.

          • BIKI024

            what can i say, he was my coach for my “other team” for the previous 3 years in which i was glued to the daily coverage on SNY, watching nearly every presser of his and many painful, frustrating losses. after 4 games? i didn’t want him the day we hired him. but sure, after starting 1-11, and losing the first 4 games you mentioned 118-49, you could say that I wanted him gone.

          • http://www.clevelandfrowns.com/ Cleveland Frowns

            Those many painful frustrating losses (four, actually) that were Brett Favre’s fault must have been really hard for you to endure. Anyway, glad the record is clear re: impatient fans.

          • BIKI024

            2007 was a joke of a season as well. and his first year was pretty uneventful as well, even though they did make the playoffs. but just like you say, the randomness of the NFL allows such, but actually, he didn’t even win the game, they got SMOKED.

          • http://www.clevelandfrowns.com/ Cleveland Frowns

            Yeah, god, I forgot. It’s amazing that the Jets didn’t win the Super Bowl in 2007.*
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chad_Pennington#2007

            And of course I’ll never stop being shocked that Pennington/Coles/Cotchery/Washington got blown out by the 2006 Pats.

            Jets and Browns fan is so perfect for you, and more good evidence as to why following sports can be so interesting and uplifting.

            *As much as it’s mostly beside the point, look at this roster:

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_New_York_Jets_season#Roster

            It was the year of Curtis Martin’s “surprise retirement,” Harris and Revis were rookies, and Vilma missed more than half the season.

          • BIKI024

            dude, he was “my coach” for the previous 3 years and I didn’t want him with the Browns and the result spoke for themselves, sans a couple great wins where the opposition clearly slept on us.

          • SteamingPileOfCraphonsoThorpe

            Normally, Biki, you make good points that are worth the time to read and ponder…BUT, perhaps you’re into the lettuce early or something, but saying that he “wasn’t able to recruit a big named coach” nearly made me choke! He was unable because he didn’t TRY! He and Bob LaMonte shared a couple umbrella drinks while Holgrum decided to give Ol’ Uncle Fritzy’s nephew a job; a guy that 100% of other NFL front offices (even the Raiders) would never have considered for said job. There’s having an edge in filling a high-profile position with the hot candidate that everybody would want because you have a relationship with the guy (like having, say, Nick Saban’s boyhood friend already in the organization), and then there’s bald-faced, rank nepotism. Shurmur’s hire is an example of #2 (pun intended).

            I agree with most of the rest of what you said, but Big Mike’s “hiring practices” were shameful and if his strategy bears fruit, it will mainly be because Heckert infused the roster with a decent amount of NFL-caliber talent on the field.

          • BIKI024

            LaMonte has several other high profile coaches as clients, including Jon Gruden, who definitely would’ve given old Bob a much higher commission rate as the salary would probably me close to double Shurmur’s. as much as it pains me to say this, the Browns job opening in 2011 was probably one of the least desirable because of the impending lockout and shape of the roster at the time. I think this coming year there is finally reason to be optimistic about the 53, after another draft and shrewdly investing the $40m in cap space we have, which hopefully should entice a Tier I candidate.

          • SteamingPileOfCraphonsoThorpe

            I’d like to believe that, I really would, but I just don’t – sure, Gruden might not have wanted it, but all the successful, and even some of the not-as-successful, coaches believe that their way can get it done, and the piles of cash make it easier to take the chance. The kind of Type A(hole) Personality that knows they can whip this rag-tag bunch of chumps into winners!

            The real problem, though, is that the hiring pool should never be limited to just one agent’s clients; that’s short-sighted and lazy, no matter how you cut it. The successful teams either land a Tier I candidate who they courted as their first choice, or they beat the bushes looking for the guy who looks like he has what it takes to become that kind of head coach. Shurmur was neither of these things.

          • BIKI024

            i’m not sure what the hiring pool was, or who all we talked to, but I doubt Shurmur was their first choice, I believe they talked to Cowher as well, but obviously he was not interested. maybe Holmgren writes a memoir and gives us a first-hand account of what happened, but until then everything is pure speculation. but sure, the whole lazy conspiracy storyline seems to be the favorite around here.

          • SteamingPileOfCraphonsoThorpe

            Ok, let’s assume that they talked to, i.e., called on the phone, Cowher and Gruden, and they are either just not interested or waiting for the second dump truck full of cash to be sent their way. If I remember correctly, the remaining “candidates” consisted of Shurmur and the Rooney Rule interviewee – there may have been one other actual interview, I don’t recall for sure. I don’t need wiretaps or insider sources to know that that is NOT a path to a successful hiring. All I have to do is look around the league at the process other teams have gone through in searching for their next coach. [I mean the teams who have gone on to win with their new coach, not, say, the Lions and Crazy Jim Schwartz].

            Let’s also dispense with the “attractiveness” argument – most teams looking for a coach are coming off a poor season, or string of poor seasons, or some other calamity. Petrino leaves the Falcons in the lurch? Why, we find Mike Smith! Wikipedia informs me that he, like Shurmur, was a first-time HC, but unlike Shurmur, he had been successful as a position coach, then a coordinator. Cowher retires? Let’s go get Mike Tomlin from the Vikings, again a successful coordinator – and those usually smelly, insane troglodytes in Pittstain (wait, that’s a description of the fans, not the organization) resisted the nepotistic urges to go with the in-house name guys. Brian Billick’s run comes to an end? Let’s cast a wider net after our first choice (Jason Garrett) turns us down, and go get John Harbaugh, someone with an excellent reputation around the league as a guy who really understands the game, and yet another first-time HC with plenty of successful position coaching to his credit. Seattle Seahawks lured their first choice, Pete Carroll back to the NFL, though the looming NCAA sanctions may have played no small part in that; he had been less than successful previously in the NFL, but he’s smart and driven enough to make the best with his opportunity in Seattle so far, this time around. Mike Singletary goes insane? Go get Jim Harbaugh who, again according to Wikipedia, took over a team “expected to struggle in what was anticipated to be a rebuilding season, with a new scheme and many new players as well as shortened summer practices due to the lockout”… sound familiar? Every one of those situations was different, some more dumpster fire-ish than others (I recall that the 49er’s were widely considered a poorly managed franchise at the time), but they did not settle for a guy no one else wanted. And every one of those guys but Carroll was a first-time NFL Head Coach. With Lerner as the owner, a systemic malaise set in lacking accountability and oversight from the guy signing the checks. I fully expect Haslam and Banner to go all out to find a coach that will “eat lightning and crap thunder”! Will the guy win? Will his style be effective? That’s all in the future. What won’t happen is Shurmur-style cronyism, and I, for one, am glad.

          • BIKI024

            again, the teams you referred to: ATL, SF, Baltimore and Seattle all had a 53 man roster in much better shape than Shurmur inherited. we just now finally hit the illustrious 30+ homegrown guys, which all those teams had when those guys took over. SF has a TON of high draft picks on that roster dating back to 2005…

          • SteamingPileOfCraphonsoThorpe

            Yes, the roster blew. But that’s the challenge to the young, hungry (and let’s not forget, successful) coordinator type. The “search”, after the obligatory calls to Cowher and Gruden, consisted of a below-average coordinator (who had only one year as OC, right?), and a sham Rooney Rule invite, and that’s my issue. The guys that will take on the challenge of that roster were out there back then, and the Browns Front Office made absolutely zero effort to find them. A guy like Gruden From 1997 (i.e., young, hungry Coordinator Dude) had to at least be interviewed, and he wasn’t.

          • BIKI024

            I’m just not convinced that Holmgren only hired him because it was his buddy’s nephew or LaMonte’s client. there are several other LaMonte clients who could’ve been great potential hires as well (Jay Gruden, Mike McCoy, McDaniels, Leslie Frazier, John Fox, etc) but I’m sure LaMonte had an idea on whether any of them would’ve had any interest, which I doubt they did.

            It seems to me that with Heckert’s experience with Shurmur and Reid’s endorsement of Shurmur that they felt he was the right man for the job. obviously didn’t help him much by allowing him to be OC and HC last season, etc. but i think we may have thought the job was more desirable than it really was, hence the slim picking.

          • SteamingPileOfCraphonsoThorpe

            Your counterpoint actually works right into my arguments: 1) the NFL coaching world does not revolve around the clients of Bob LaMonte, Super-Agent, but the Browns “search” did, and, 2) show me where any other NFL team had interest in Shurmur as HC (or even OC?), and I’ll reconsider, but until then that is a fairly ringing indictment of the process.

            As an aside, let’s see who has interest in Shurmur now.

          • BIKI024

            Mangini actually interviewed Shurmur for OC when he took the Jets job and there’s rumors of him going to be OC for his old buddy Leslie Frazier (also a LaMonte client)

            but i think what you’re missing is that I doubt the Browns had any interest from anyone other than the Shurmur types, someone willing to take the chance at a HC position, even if it could potentialy be a career killer with how weak the roster was, especially in a lockout situation.

          • SteamingPileOfCraphonsoThorpe

            I’m not missing that at all, I’m merely saying that the most aggressive coaches believe they can overcome the odds – the next guy who gets the job done in Cleveland will be hailed as a hero. Why do top CEO’s in the corporate world take jobs to lead struggling companies? Because they believe they will turn them around. Like I said before, a team needing a coach has been getting sub-standard results on the field, whatever the condition of the roster. Now, I will concede that the Browns now have more to start with than they did last time. But if they had done it right last time, instead of the nepotistic way, they wouldn’t be looking now.

          • BIKI024

            yes, u seem to be missin my point, which is it was one of the least desireable jobs in recent NFL history with a terrible 53 that needed at least 2 or 3 more drafts to have a legit roster. it seems to me that “nepotism” may have been the only thing that got us a coach as no up and coming coordinator would want this situation on their resume. which is why your comparison to CEO’s is irrelevant. someone like marissa meyer comes into yahoo to turn theor fortunes because they have a lot of IP and assets that give them a solid foundation, the Browns 2 years ago did not. this time around we’re in a much better place, albeit still question mark with he QB, which could hurt us, we’ll see.

          • SteamingPileOfCraphonsoThorpe

            In the interest of being politely argumentative, I am not in any way “missing your point”, I simply contest its validity. There were 8 new coaches (25% of the league) starting the 2011 season, including Shurmur. The other openings were:

            Carolina
            Denver
            San Francisco
            Minnesota
            Oakland
            Dallas
            Tennessee

            First off, discount TN because they fired Jeff Fischer late, after all the other jobs had been filled. Then, remember that Garrett was Jerrah’s hand-picked successor, I think they interviewed someone to satisfy the Rooney Rule, but that job was never going anywhere else. So that leaves 6 true openings, counting the Browns, post-2010.

            The Panthers were coming a horrible 2-14 season, looking at the #1 pick in the draft. They had no QB worth a turd and very few playmakers on offense (remember the Browns beat the Jimmy Claussen-led team that year). Denver gave up on the Josh McDaniels experiment and were still a year off from the QB Savior in Peyton Manning, some playmakers on both offense and defense, but looking for a respected leader. Fox (another LaMonte client, and the only NFL “retread” to be hired for one of these openings), chose to go to Denver, and yes, they had more than the Browns in terms of talent, but still needed another draft or two to fill it out. Minnesota had offensive talent but an aging, erratic defense and a question mark at QB. San Francisco was the most talented of this group, and needed a strong, innovative coach to lead them (and let’s not forget that the fanbase, and leadership, were this close to running Alex Smith out of town). Then Oakland – dumpster fire that burns to this day. Really, they are the only one on this list where your “attractiveness” argument makes sense – in 2011 Corpse Al Davis was still in charge and NOBODY wanted that job, they once again filled it from within their own ranks (even though they were actually 8-8 that previous season, they were still a mess).

            So, remove Dallas, Tennessee, and Oakland (true dumpster fire), the remaining 5 teams all had questions at QB, and the talent on the field went from All-Pro (SF) to pretty terrible (Carolina, based on record [remember, this is pre-Cam Newton]). Of the eventual coaches selected to lead those 5 teams (and even including Dallas), only one had never been interviewed/seriously considered previously as a head coach and/or had head coaching experience at either the major college or NFL level and/or a long-term track record of success at the coordinator level. Guess which one?

            And again, I return to one of my main points: not at least looking at other candidates with better credentials was a major sin that in part cost Holmie his job. Would Harbaugh have come to Cleveland and did John Fox not want to deal with the heavier rebuild in Cleveland vs. Denver? Maybe, maybe not. But don’t tell me that there’s not a young, up-and-coming coordinator out there who’s Bellichick part II, a guy who will work 23 hours a day, and curse that one hour he has to nap on the couch in his office, to make the team I grew up rooting for a winner! That type of guy would go just about anywhere (except Oakland), and the money is secondary to their psychopathic obsession with winning football games. The majority of teams on this list had major holes to fill on their rosters, and major questions to answer, and were at least one draft/Free Agency from addressing those needs. I charge Holgrum with Contempt of the Fans, Your Honor, for doing the minimum necessary to find a new coach, relying too heavily on Bob LaMonte, and not broadening the search to find The Guy. Did he maliciously say, “Let’s screw the fans and just give the job to Pat”? No. But given the way he went about the process, he might as well have. He didn’t set out to do a bad job, but the results say he did, indeed, stink at it.

            Sorry, I veered off course during my rant. I meant to also mention that attractiveness of the roster is at least somewhat offset by the fact that, at any one time, of the 32 HC jobs, only 20-25% come open, and they are highly coveted and sought after. Wooh, didn’t mean to go so long…I’m done.

          • bupalos

            excellent.

          • BIKI024

            actually, Oakland didn’t have an opening.
            so that leaves the Browns as the clear WORST option by at least 10 miles. at least Carolina had Cam Newton waiting in the wings, and it’s not like they got this “up and coming young coordinator” either. I’m actually surprised Ron Rivera made it past Black Monday.

            so who is this young up and coming coordinator you keep referring to? i just don’t see that there was one out there 2 offseasons ago, and if there was, they had no interest whatsoever in coming into a dumpster fire of a roster.

          • SteamingPileOfCraphonsoThorpe

            SPOCT does not have all the answers, Mr. Biki, I never claimed that I knew who that guy was, only that they are always out there, and people as well-connected in football circles as Holmgren should know. Yes, Oakland had an opening, they just filled it from within. And at the time, Carolina did not yet have Cam Newton and that roster was in worse shape AT THE TIME.

          • BIKI024

            Oakland hired a new coach this past offseason, and he may even be worse than Pat Shurmur.

            as far as CAR, they had the #1 pick, which was absolutely going to be Cam Newton. and what hire did they make?? you think they are happy with Ron Rivera down there?? is he this young up and coming coordinator you’re looking for???

            and who said about having the answers? but surely you can name some examples??

            bottom line, I’m not sure there was a worse HC position opening in recent NFL history, including maybe the 99 expansion team that was worse than the 2011 Browns position, other than of course any Oakland Raider position in the past 10 years, but other than that I doubt you could name one.

          • SteamingPileOfCraphonsoThorpe

            To pick the smallest of nits: yes, the Raiders had an opening in 2011 – Hue Jackson replaced Cable. Further response to come…

          • SteamingPileOfCraphonsoThorpe

            Let’s look at a list of teams that have had at least 3 coaches from the 2006 season to now:

            Dallas – Parcells, Phillips, Garrett
            Miami – Saban, Cameron, Sparano, Philbin
            Falcons – Mora, Petrino, Smith
            Raiders – Shell, Kiffin…others
            Redskins – Gibbs, Zorn, Shanahan
            Broncos – Shanahan, McDaniels, Fox
            49ers – Nolan, Singletary, Harbaugh
            Bucs – Gruden, Morris, Schiano
            Lions – Jauron, Marinelli 0-16, Schwartz
            Seahawks – Holmgren, Mora, Carroll
            Chiefs – Edwards, Haley, Crennel
            Colts – Dungy, Caldwell, Pagano/Arians
            Rams – Linehan, Haslett, Spagnuolo, Fisher
            Browns – Crennel, Mangini, Shurmur

            Occasionally, there was a planned transition (Dungy – Caldwell), but for the most part these were firings. That’s 14 of 32 teams that have transitioned at least 3 times in the last 7 seasons, and I 100% GUARANTEE that some of those transitions included horrible rosters that gave coaches nightmares, whether from aging players, injuries, or terrible drafting. Somebody actually took the Lions job after 0-16, for Frowns’ sake!

            Now, the depressing part is that most of those teams have had at least some success under one or more coaches since, while the Browns have been inept. But they, almost to a team, had to rebuild in some way, whether through drafts or FA; at the very least, it took a coach with a new vision to get the most of the guys that were there.

            Biki, I generally respect your comments, and I’m not trying to rip you, but we all suffer from failing to take a wider look at the league in general and realize that other teams sometimes have it as bad (or worse) than we do…although maybe not as consistently! :o) So, friends now? :o)
            Note: I was surprised at just how many crappy coaches have floated through the NFL in just 7 seasons. That’s an ugly list of Suck.

          • BIKI024

            first off, of course we’re friends, this is all a form of entertainment for all of us to talk about our favorite team, the Cleveland Clowns.

            great work on the research, but i would challenge you to find a team that only had 6 homegrown players heading into any of the coaching changes you listed. i just took a look at the 2 worst teams, record wise, the Lions and the Rams.

            In 2010, Spags first year, the Rams had 28 homegrown guys, including the #1 overall pick in Bradford. Spags was as up and coming as they get and he bombed. Fisher comes in there because he liked the foundation that was there as well as the plethra of draft picks they picked up from the trade overhaul and saw this as a great opportunity to work with his old buddies to finish a rebuild that was 2-3 years further along in the rebuild process than the Browns.

            In 2009 when Schwartz took over for the Lions, they also had the #1 overall pick and the #20 pick, which put them also at 28 homegrown guys.

            it’s really hard to build a program with washouts from other teams, the only way a team has any sort of sustainable success is with at least 30+ homegrown and the 2 worst other situations in the league still had a roster that had a lot more experience with each other that made them much closer to a turnaround than anything the Browns have had in recent history. i think this is the first time since we’ve been back that we have a legit roster with a lot of additional positives such as the $40m cap space and #6 pick and can make a case for a legit HC candidate.

          • SteamingPileOfCraphonsoThorpe

            Good points. Still, the Lions were 2-14, 6-10, 10-6, 4-12 since ’09. Rams – 1-15, 7-9, 2-14, 7-8-1. Plus, Jim Schwartz is actually clinically insane. So, just like with the Browns of the mid-2000’s, homegrown players can still blow, they just do so collectively instead of on different teams. Oh, and Bradford so far has been either terrible, or fragile, depending on the week. Although I must admit to not knowing how he did in 2012.

          • Beeej

            I would like to add to the last sentence…after Mangini cleared house.

        • Henry Brown

          Ridiculous, a team with half of its starters being rookies played competitively in the majority of its games. Compare that to the Mangini hand picked veterans who were blown out of most games before they went on some weird winning streak against junk teams.

          • http://www.clevelandfrowns.com/ Cleveland Frowns

            How dense can you be, Henry? These “hand-picked replacements” were just cheap fill ins for junk that had to be replaced anyway.

            http://www.clevelandfrowns.com/2012/09/youth-culture-and-the-browns-final-53-man-roster/

            More to the point, in Mangini’s second year his team only lost by 10 or more 3 times, twice to the AFC Champion Steelers, and once (by 10) to the Falcons.

            This year, in Shurmur’s second year, with twice as much talent as Mangini had, his team lost by 10 six times (that’s twice as many … double), and got the righteous shit kicked out of it at least four times.

            Mangini was building a winning culture here. One that could beat any team in the league on any given day and would have become a consistent contender with the infusion of talent that Shurmur enjoyed but couldn’t make use of. Think about it. Keep trying. You’ll get it.

      • SteamingPileOfCraphonsoThorpe

        Nobody else wanted the job = Bob Lamonte didn’t want anyone else to have the job. There are only 32 NFL head coaching positions, and if Holmie had been interested in truly searching for someone young and hungry, or someone experienced and hungry, he might have found the right guy. Instead, he went to lunch with his agent and got that piddling “who’s going to be the next HC?” thing out of the way so they could enjoy the rest of their meal. Likely, he wrote “Fritzy’s nephew” on the cocktail napkin they served him his drink on, passed it to Lamonte, then proceeded to unhitch his “buffet pants” in preparation for the feast on Cleveland’s soul.

        • BIKI024

          pictures or it didn’t happen

          • SteamingPileOfCraphonsoThorpe

            Finally circling back around to this one…you sure you want pictures of that? Once those pants come unhitched, you can’t unsee what comes next! There’s no “unremember” button for that image, bro!

    • nj0

      And I agree. The guy is a slimy, self-promoting p.o.s.

    • Roosevelt

      Continuing to not get the Holmgren hate.

      1. Holmgren left the Browns in better shape than he found them, something that cannot be said for any other coach/exec the new Browns have had, except for possibly Mangini.

      1a. While Mangini may be a good guy and a good football mind (he is), and it may even have been silly to fire him (it wasn’t), the structure of the front office during the time that he was here was woeful, and something needed to be done. If filling out the offices above Mangini with “role players” was the right move, then that’s on Lerner, not Holmgren.

      2. Heckert was a solid hire, evidenced not only by the job he did, but by the praise that others have been heaping on the current roster. This will be born out when he his immediately hired to be a GM somewhere.

      3. While Holmgren is admittedly not the blue collar midnight-oil type, there is nothing that suggests that he promised he would be, or that he did anything differently with the Browns than one would have expected.

      4. If you’re really so down on Holmgren because he’s lazy and steals money, you should be happy that he’ll get another job, so that he can finally be exposed.

      • http://www.clevelandfrowns.com/ Cleveland Frowns

        If “1.” is true (it’s not) it could only possibly be so if one is looking at some extremely short term definition of “in better shape.” Anyway, I, for one, would be thrilled to see him back on the sidelines. Preferably for Jerry Jones.

        • Roosevelt

          The only possible argument that you could make that the team was in worse shape when he left was that Mangini is a better coach than whomever they’ll bring in. The roster is far, far better. In 2009, the Browns offense was ranked 29th and the defense 21st (although both passing and rushing defense were far worse than that). In 2012 they were ranked 24th in offense and 19th in defense with even more marked improvement in rush and pass defense. The front office had clearly defined roles and positions that were actually filled by people who knew how to do them. But the most noticeable improvement was the watchability. I don’t know if statistics bear this out, but even when the Browns were successful before 2010, it was because they caught breaks or caught teams playing even worse than they were. If it wasn’t a loss, it seemed to be multiple punt returns, some crazy bounces, and/or the Buffalo Bills (Yes, I know they beat the Pats on a day when both McCoy and Hillis had career days). Now, even when they lose, the games are competitive until the late stages, and you don’t feel a need to turn off the TV every 3rd and long.

          • http://www.clevelandfrowns.com/ Cleveland Frowns

            You’re taking too simplistic a view that fails to account for the cyclical nature of an NFL franchise’s lifecycle in the pro-parity system. We just blew a big load on a lot of high draft picks, including our second most valuable one from next year which has already been spent. If this group doesn’t ever end up winning a playoff game you absolutely can’t say that H&H left the franchise in better shape than it was before they got here. If they manage to win a playoff game or two but never make it out of the divisional round, you’d also have to account for randomness in a league where most teams can’t help but win a playoff game every few years.

          • Roosevelt

            This post totally jumps the shark in terms of Holmgren hate and Mangini love. Really? A team that hasn’t won a playoff game in fifteen years doesn’t show improvement unless they make it to the AFC Championship because teams randomly win playoff games every few years? If this team doesn’t make the playoffs with the current core, it will mean nothing because the new regime will likely get rid of the current core. But the day Holmgren left, we were much closer than we’d been since Crennel’s 10-6 year.

          • Henry Brown

            If this team wins 6 games they left it in better shape than what it was when they got it. Heck even if they win 2 games they’ll still be better off. Mangini left this team with nothing but Alex Mack, which is a freaking miracle he didn’t fuck that up.

          • atdietz80

            I think you ran out of steam on this rant. Watchability? That’s very scientific. We’re not talking about the new fall lineup here. One coach won games or was beat by the better team. The other coach just beat himself. I’ll let the viewer decide which coach is which.

          • alexb

            The offense was better under Mangini but the defense was better under Shurmur.

          • Henry Brown

            Mangini is not a better coach than anyone. That’s why he’s doing TV. This site is pathalogical.

        • Henry Brown

          Wait, so bringing in a bunch of veterans on their last legs, while simultaneously drafting a bunch of garbage is leaving the team in better shape for the long run more than drafting solid players along the offensive and defensive lines that should play for another 8-10 years? Ok, now I’ve heard it all.

        • Petefranklin

          I’d love to have RGIII stomp his fat butt into the turf twice a year. Poetic justice in my book.

      • Henry Brown

        What the hell did Mangini leave this team with other than some average, old ex-Jets?

    • http://www.clevelandfrowns.com/ Cleveland Frowns

      Why pile on at this point? What else is there left to say? It’s sad.

  • Beeej

    “The best opportunity in the league right now.”

    I couldn’t help but think of a passed out girl at the bar who peed herself and has vomit in her hair. “Hey she looks like my* best opportunity of not going home alone tonight.”

    *Not me. I’m happily married. I wasn’t into the whole find the drunkest girl at the bar game when I was single, but you know the type.

  • nj0

    In other news, the Indians signed this class act…

    http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2497723

    …you know, I understand the need for the karmic justice inflicted on us because of Wahoo, but it is the seeming malevolent glee that the universe takes in exacting this retribution that makes me shudder.

    • BIKI024

      the case was dismissed and he’s still with his wife, with no further incidents in past 6 years, but yeah, def not good karma to pimp slap your wifey.

      i’m assuming they move him back to SP since we have a pretty full BP, so if he can come in an give us 200+ innings like he did in 2010 (3.14 ERA) and 2011 (mediocre 4.46 ERA) and stay off the police scanners then he would be a welcomed addition.

      • nj0

        His wife didn’t want to prosecute her husband. As far as I’m concerned, in these types of cases you’re guilty til proven innocent.

        Nothing like a man who keeps his woman in check through intimidation and fear of a beating. He also had a rage-full run in with a reporter in Philly.

        So disheartening that I have cheer these people.

        I am seriously considering turning in my Cleveland sports fan card.

        • BigDigg

          In moments of cleveland fandom crisis like this, I try to remember the better days where we could cheer for heros like Jim Brown.

          • nj0

            LOL! Well done, well done.

          • NeedsFoodBadly

            Masterful!

          • actovegin1armstrong

            Exactly,

            Jim Brown.

            I also liked almost noticing John Lowenstein’s Apathy Club. 7 Billion members and counting!

  • p_forever

    hey so if we’re going all in on chip kelly, which i think is probably pretty dumb, we might as well also do something that will allow him to run his fancy pants offense here in cleveland and recruit ej manuel. he is someone that can actually do the things chip kelly needs his quarterback to do, which is get rid of the ball and run plays really really quickly, which means he won’t have time to hold onto the ball and think too hard and then end up making a bad decision (something he is want to do), and he won’t have to throw the ball down the field too terribly often, which is also good because although he has a great arm he also makes dumb decisions when he is allowed to do that too often, and he throws lots of picks when that happens. but clearly weeden isn’t going to be able to run chip kelly’s offense. no way no how never. never ever ever. and we don’t need to move up to get geno smith or something – i mean he could potentially run chip kelly’s offense too, but i’m not sold on him so i don’t think we should give up anything to get him.

    the whole thing (chip kelly as headcoach) is a total longshot, but if we’re going for total longshot we might as well go all in on total longshot. bringing chip kelly and not giving him a new quarterback would be the very worst of all the bad decisions the browns could make at this point.

    • Bryan

      I was in the “anti-Chip” camp for awhile. The more I read, though, the more I am intrigued by the guy. You know the New England offense? Kelly advised Bellichick on how to run that. Kelly is not a one-trick pony. He can adapt his strategies to different personal. Brady is the least mobile QB in the world, the team does not have great speed on WR, its best playmakers are TEs, yet Kelly was able to help Bellichick speed up the rhythm of the offense within those constraints.

      I may be wrong, but I don’t think Chip Kelly is going to come to the NFL and try to jam his system into place. He is smarter than that.

      I really want the guy.

      • BIKI024

        so a couple hours of Belichik meeting with Kelly is the reason the Pats offense did so well this year (and every year Brady plays)? McDaniels or most of all Brady have nothing to do with it??

        i guess I wouldn’t mind him, but the one common variable that all other college coaches who’ve had success in the NFL is that they have previous experience in the NFL, Chip has zero zilch nada.

        • Bryan

          I agree that it would be hyperbole to attribute all of NE’s success to Kelly. I didn’t mean to imply as much. I was only trying to show that Kelly is open minded, that he has demonstrated the ability to apply his principles to different personnel mixes, and that he is unlikely to come to the NFL and try to jam a square peg into a circle.

          Also, the very fact that Bellichick reached out to him for advice says a lot about his intelligence and respect within the industry.

          His lack of NFL experience scares me as well. But if Haslam and Banner want him, I think they will be willing to be patient and let him figure it out. Which would be huge.

      • p_forever

        yes i knew that wrt bellichik. and i’m not totally “anti” chip – i said i’d take him, right?

        wrt the rest: it’s just obvious that when chip kelly is doing what he thinks is the best possible thing to do – when he went to oregon and got free reign to install whatever system he wanted, and to recruit whatever players he wanted to for that offense, he went for what he is currently doing at offense. i’m not saying he “can’t” do anything else at offense, or that he can’t understand how to figure out how to make an existing system better. but i am saying he thinks what he is doing is best. and its only logical that he would want to do what is best wherever he goes, right? so no. he gets that he can’t install it whole hog. but yes. he will try to install the pieces that he can as soon as he can. and if he had his way, he’d be able to install lots and lots of the pieces. it’s bad enough that he will be coming to the nfl and won’t be able to recruit his own players (which is what he and all head college coaches are accustomed to doing, and its a main reason they end up sucking at and hating coaching in the nfl – its more that than actual inability to coach at a “higher level,” in my opinion). the least we can do is give him a quarterback that has a chance of doing like 10% of what chip kelly ideally would want to see out of his offense, you know?

      • jaws

        If we get Chip Kelly- Everyone get SUPER FUCKING HAPPY. If we don’t get Chip and have to settle for someone else – Everyone get SUPER FUCKING SAD. That’s my advice.

        • bupalos

          Kelly seems like a bright guy and I would think a pretty good pick, but really I don’t see how he could be preferred to Saban (I mean, supposing that’s possible.) I don’t see how anyone without any NFL experience could be. There is always a transition there.

          I feel like this goes double for the Browns’ specific case. I’d be way too nervous that any newby would do too much peg-pounding and want to spend time “getting everything set up right.” It’s just going to be natural on the first rodeo to want to revert to your own strengths rather than find something in what could easily (and quite wrongly) be confused with a blank slate. The offensive roster’s strength is pass protection and wicked downfield blocking and RAC. I’m not sure how one assumes Kelly is the guy to roll with that. Saban on the other hand has shown himself time and again as a guy that thinks talent first, scheme second. I think he could be absolutely trusted in that regard. Kelly? I’d hope so.

          Saban, Teo, a Weeden that stops totally sucking (or Alex Smith,) a quality FA corner and safety….

          With decent health I think that right there is probably playoffs next year.

          • Beeej

            Can someone please tell me why people think
            Alex Smith is good all of a sudden? He sucked for years, then got Jim Harbaugh as a coach and was o.k. Then he lost his job (got hurt? I don’t know I only follow the Browns) to a noname and now we want him?

          • bupalos

            Our current quarterback is apparently Brandon Weeden. We would have bundle up our entire draft after the first pick to get say Ryan Nasib.

            Isn’t that enough?

          • BIKI024

            he’s been more than OK under Harbaugh, with a completion percentage of nearly 65% with 30TD and only 10 picks in 26 games. he also is the benefactor of a more talented offensive unit since his first few seasons with a much improved offensive line, a healthy Frank Gore and the explosion of Crabtree as a legit superstar WR.

            it seems to me that the Browns offensive talent has similar strengths as the Niners, great OL, strong powerful RB and talent at WR (although a work in progress).

            he’s only 28 and probably has a lot of good football ahead of him. I wouldn’t mind him one bit, but I doubt we will be the only team in the market for him (if we even are). we’ll see how it all plays out.

          • Cranky M

            He had a new offensive coordinator/system every season during those years that he “sucked.” Once he had a stable system for more than one season, he played very well. He lost his job to Kaepernick (somebody check the archives and find the post where i said we should draft Kaepernick, because i definitely said so) because he got injured. His numbers before that were good, it’s just that Kapernick gives them much more big-play potential, and they know he’s going to be there for the next few years so they’re sticking with him. Smith did absolutely nothing to “lose” his job.
            He’s far from great, but he’s better than a lot of QB’s starting in the NFL right now.

          • Beeej

            Cranky, Biki, and Bupa:

            Thanks. I figuratively had no idea. I just remember Niner fans bitching about him for the last umpteen years, then with Harbaugh as a coach he becomes a hot commodity.

          • Cranky M

            Stop with Teo. Just stop. No way in hell he is worth a top 10 pick. The dude only averaged like 4 tackles per game, and unless i’m mistaken he caused zero fumbles all year. And how many sacks did he have, again? Not to mention that he plays the same position as Jackson.

          • bupalos

            Countdown to a P stomping…3,2,1…

            I won’t disagree that his numbers (outside of 7ints!!!) don’t necessarily scream top 10 at you, I just think you watch him move and cover and hit and space himself and he looks like a great NFL backer to me. It’s barely possible he slips out of the top 10, but I’d bet a ton of money he’s gone by 12.

            Then again, I just threw my Cheddar season away on a pack of undisciplined amotivational thugs, so what do I know?

          • Cranky M

            I’m not saying he isn’t a good player. But for a team with as many holes as the Browns to draft a MLB in the top 10 when it happens to be one of the few positions we are set at couldn’t possibly make less sense. Especially since, like i said, Teo’s numbers aren’t exactly overwhelming (i think we can all agree that INT numbers are always pretty damn fluky for LB’s).

    • Henry Brown

      Kelly said. “There’s a lot of ways to play football…Trends go one way
      and the other… Any coach is going to learn from other people and see how
      they can implement it in their system. Anything you do has to be
      personnel driven. You have to adapt to the personnel you have. There’s
      a lot of great offenses out there, but does it fit with the personnel
      you have. The key is making sure what you’re doing is giving your
      people a chance to be successful.”

      • p_forever

        Yes – it’s good kelly is not insisting on doing things exactly as he does now. But – I mean – how else is he going to Answer this question? Most importantly, in this quote he acknowledges what he will be doing is learning “from other coaches” and taking pieced from other offenses based upon how it can be “implemented in [his] system.”

        Look. I’m not even saying that’s an awful thing – at least kelly has a clear idea about where he’s going. And some people think his system might work – bill bellichik didn’t ask him for advice for nothing (note also he didn’t ask him for general advice about what system would fit his personnel. Kelly is an expert on one system, and one system only). I’m mostly saying let’s not handicap the guy by strapping him with weeden. Let’s give Kelly the chance to be brilliant here instead.

        • BIKI024

          brian kelly rumors heating up…

        • actovegin1armstrong

          p_4,
          Chip, Schmip…. What about the important side of the ball?

    • Cranky M

      “(something he is want to do)”
      WONT to do. Wont.

      • p_forever

        lol. i write my comments on my phone way too fast and make lots of mistakes – but thanks. i bet you can find lots more too.

        • Cranky M

          I don’t usually point stuff like that, even though i’m a pedantic asshole. But that just happened to be the third time in the past 2 days that i’ve randomly seen somebody write it like that, and i couldn’t resist pointing it out. I’m a jerk.

          • p_forever

            oh it’s perfectly fine – i’m a pedantic asshole too, and likely would have done the exact same thing, and just like you would not have accepted the “i was going really fast” excuse (even though i super was going really fast). fast or not, improper* grammar is unacceptable.

            *i should say *unintentional *improper grammar, because sometimes i (and others) purposefully mis-use words or otherwise break the rules of grammar, whether it be for effect, or in an attempt to be clever, or etc. but no. this time my mistake was not intentional. and i’m glad you pointed it out so that i could fix it.

      • p_forever

        also look i super fixed it for you

  • p_forever

    oh also happy new year everybody :)

  • atdietz80

    Did all the Nick Saban talk die down officially? I wanted to make the definitive case for him going pro: the Geno Auriemma club. It’s all well and good to set records in college, but at the end of the day, it’s just college. I think Nick would rather win in a man’s game.

    • BIKI024

      i’m sure it will pick up again leading into their game next week. as far as what the “insiders” are saying, Saban is #1 choice in Berea, but obviously Saban has other priorities at the moment…

    • nj0

      Cash is cash. If I were a cfb coach, I’d never leave. Too easy to fail in the NFL.

      • bupalos

        Except when you fail in the NFL, you make a tall pile of cash doing it, and can always pick up one of the recruiting sinecures later with whatever big name “university” has just had a down year or two. Brushing up the NFL connection aids recruiting and these “universities” will pay a lot for that.

        Saban should be acutely aware of the gold lining that lies behind the silver lining that lies behind the gold lining.

        • BIKI024

          the question is, if Saban does want to make the jump, would the Browns even be in his Top 5? he’s 61, which I heard puts him at one of the oldest in NFL, he may be looking for a situation where he could come in and contend right away..

          • bupalos

            I think his top 5 would be:
            #1 – the team that offers him the most money
            #2 – the team that offers him the second most money
            #3 – the team that offers him the third most money…

            Seriously, I think he would see Cleve as low risk and high reward. If he gets it done, he’s perceived as a genius that succeeded where everyone else failed. If he doesn’t, it’s just blamed on the Cleve stink and he’s on to Arkansas and another bajillion.

        • nj0

          True. And a guy like Saban is old enough to be a brand that wouldn’t be hurt by a poor showing. I can’t believe NFL teams are interested in him after Miami.

          • bupalos

            I really just don’t see anything wrong with his Miami tenure. Unless you mean his leaving.

        • actovegin1armstrong

          “Saban should be acutely aware of the gold lining that lies behind the silver lining that lies behind the gold lining.”
          Yes, but please remember the White Zone is for loading and unloading only.

      • actovegin1armstrong

        You are correct nj0,
        He would be a fool to leave.

  • Bryan

    Filed under “desperate” (along with Holmgren). So, in short, Lombardi wants a job and has been starting rumors about himself even though no one is actually interested in him:

    “Mary Kay Cabot ‏@MaryKayCabot

    Former #Browns personnel exec Mike Lombardi told @923TheFantoday he hasn’t heard from #Browns yet but he’d listen to them, others.”

    • nj0

      Lombardi is such a bad idea I think it has to happen.

  • alexb

    Can Merill Hodge get his ass kicked? God I’m tired of that guy. Had to listen to him instantly drop Cleveland as the least desirable place for a Coach to land. Like even over KC.

    • actovegin1armstrong

      “Can Merill Hodge get his ass kicked?”
      Yes, if he ever gets between me and Michael Vick.

      • alexb

        whaaa??? lol….issues with Vick?

  • alexb

    Draft talk: Mingo looked awesome yesterday until he got hurt. Werner looked terrible, he’s hurt but Fl St kept that shut. Dude barely fired out the whole game, played ultra slow….2nd half came out with the back of his leg/foot taped so I think he’s got something with his achilles going on. He was definitely preserving his draft status last night.

    • Henry Brown

      Mingo looked afraid of contact, no thanks

      • Petefranklin

        He needs another year in college to “season up”.

      • alexb

        he did? What i saw of him he hit a couple people hard. Actually i wouldn’t be surprised, I think more than a couple of these guys phoned it in out there cause they weren’t playin for the title so no way they were gonna mess with their draft status.

    • actovegin1armstrong

      I changed my mind a bit on Mr Mingo. He may be coach-able enough to fix it, but he made a couple of great plays and a lot of mistakes.
      Although he did make a very fast move on the forced fumble.

    • bupalos

      I watched a bunch of Mingo, mostly because of his name, but also because super GM Acto was on him, but I just don’t see it. I know he must be the size they say he is, but he gets pushed around enough that I keep thinking “they ought to drop that safety back off the line a bit.” The speed is impressive for a DE or LB, but whether it’s how high he stands or whatever, he just doesn’t really play like one.

      • alexb

        The NFL is good at putting size and strength on guys while either maintaining or actually gaining speed. He fills out some he’ll be sick.

  • BIKI024

    It should be noted that 2 out of the 6 years of the run of 11 or more losses was under the Eric Mangini Era as the HC, and only 3 of the 6 years was part of the Holmgren Era.

  • bupalos

    Man Biki you should brace yourself on the Jets side of things. Just going over cap situations and there’s almost no way that team isn’t significantly worse next year, is there?

    • BIKI024

      getting Revis and Holmes back should help, as well as the draft..

      • actovegin1armstrong

        Now do you see why I am always clamoring for high picks to be used for guys in the secondary?

        The J-E-T-S were a completely different team without Revis Island.

        I really wanted Patrick Peterson, Eric Berry, Mo Claiborne, Janoris Jenkins, somebody who can cover.

        I frequently hear “it is a passing league”, so everyone uses that ridiculous term “FRANCHISE Quarterback”.
        I am sick of that stupid term, just get a couple of shut-down Corners and watch the FQ get his ass kicked looking for an open receiver.

        • http://www.clevelandfrowns.com/ Cleveland Frowns

          So the Seahawks are your pick to win the Super Bowl?

          • actovegin1armstrong

            It would be great to see Seattle v Denver.

            That is my pick too.

          • http://www.clevelandfrowns.com/ Cleveland Frowns

            I don’t think Denver’s going to beat the Patriots. I think it’s going to be the Pats against either the Falcons or the Seahawks.

        • NeedsFoodBadly

          Barnwell has a write-up about the playoff teams on Grantland that made me think of you, Acto. He talks about the Bengals defense transforming into one of the best defenses in the latter half of the season, attributing it partially to their depth at cornerback.

          • actovegin1armstrong

            Barnwell?

            Just another one of my many pseudonyms.

        • p_forever

          i would take rg3 over any of those guys; alternatively i would trade all of them for one rg3.
          :)
          hi acto.

        • Cranky M

          The problem is, neither Peterson or Berry can actually cover very well. Peterson is a freak athlete but his coverage skills are suspect, and Berry is still coasting on his pre-draft reputation. Ask a Chiefs fan how well Berry can cover the pass. And i saw about 5 Cowboys games this season, and Claiborne did absolutely nothing to impress me in them. In fact, he got manhandled so badly in two of them that he ended up getting benched.

          So, your point kind of sucks.

    • BIKI024

      word on the street is that Heckert is coming to the J-E-T-S! N-I-C-E!

  • BIKI024

    Didn’t realize the 2013 opponents were listed..

    Home: Baltimore, Cincinnati, Pittsburgh, Buffalo, Miami, Jacksonville, Chicago, Detroit

    Away: Baltimore, Cincinnati, Pittsburgh, New England, N.Y. Jets, Kansas City, Green Bay, Minnesota

    i’m guessing the over under will be 5.5, LOVE the over again!

    10-6 baby!

    • Steve

      How do you not get 12-4 out of that schedule?

    • Petefranklin

      6.5 next year. Since you asked in an earlier thread,the 5.5 was THE line on this years Clowns with a few variables. Cantor opened 5.5 with a slight push towards under. Sportsbook online opened 5 with 120 on over. Hilton opened shortly thereafter at 4.5 heavy juice on over then finally moved to 5. The MGM opened 6 with 120 juice on the under as Frownie pointed out here with a headline. I tried to get 6 , going to the book with more than maxbet in hand but the line was crushed down to 5.5 already. If that doesnt make you think that our 5.5 was a solid # then I will post pics of what I just wrote, just so you dont think that I was taking advantage of a New Yorker or something. I guess Ill have Pete email you with my email so we can settle up if you dont mind. 5.5 or 6 will be a pretty good over next year it seems.

    • nj0

      Do we ever not play Buffalo? Sheesh.

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